Board 8 > Hearthstone Discussion Topic: Voyage To The Sunken City - Year of the Hydra

(+) Yeah! (+)

I got both Rogue legendaries and the non Rafaam warlock one for my 37 packs

Which deck is the most fun? Skeletons looks cool

I've done well with skeleton mage (missing a few legendaries) in casual, but it wasn't getting me wins in ranked for my 5 win ranked. Guessing the legendaries actually make a big difference for winrate on this one.

metroidcomposite posted...

I've done well with skeleton mage (missing a few legendaries) in casual, but it wasn't getting me wins in ranked for my 5 win ranked. Guessing the legendaries actually make a big difference for winrate on this one.

In the control and Druid matchup they definitely do. Like I think I would go Varden > Mordresh > Thekal > Kel > Finley in priority. I dont think Ive even seen a Kel yet

if you are just facing Implocks you mull for sanctum and may be able to call it a day

On the top end the meta actually feels relatively balanced. But there are like 4 pretty bad classes

Shaman and Hunter probably feel the most well rounded? idk yet

https://twitter.com/alecogereco/status/1558206875618840576?s=21&t=YZTP0ZXOX8o-JLUcEXbhWA

A leak on a Korean server that came too early revealed some nerfs and buffs

nerfs include Snowfall Guardian, Celestial, The Stag Spirit, Vile Library, and Kobold Illusionist in wild

buffs include Edwin (which is nuts honestly) and The DH location and more

https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/blog/23840665/

Lot to take in

Can't believe 2-mana: Draw 5-7 cards didn't get nerfed.

UltimaterializerX posted... Stag weapon did nothing wrong.

Guardian is NOT the problem. The bird is.

As someone who was using quest hunter to get my weekly ranked wins...stag always felt like the highroll.

Not sure which one the bird is? Do you mean the fox? 3/1 rush is...nice against aggro, but really weak if there's nothing to rush into.

Anyway, that's a lot of balance changes....

I'm a bit miffed they nerfed Kobold Illusionist for wild but left big priest alone? Like...rogue's not the only deck in wild pulling out a turn 3 Neptulon.

Pretty happy to see Celestial Alignment gutted. There were always on-paper ways of countering it, like...getting something like Runed Mithril Rod to discount your whole hand the turn after they alignment, but in practice across lots and lots of wild games, the dream just...never happened. They played alignment, and you were horribly crippled and couldn't do anything relevant.

That's a lot of buffs, a LOT of buffs.

Magnifying Glaive is a bit eye-popping to me. Already looked like the best DH card in the new set and probably wild-relevant before the buff.

Abyssal Depths can now reliably tutor Vanndar on curve, so that's interesting.

Warhorse Trainer buff as someone who a year ago was using Odd Paladin to grind out rank 5 in wild is just hilarious to see. I mean, the deck is still probably bad, but that's not the card that needed help.

Justice for Tidal Revenant! Still stand by my opinion that the pre-nerf version of the card really wasn't that powerful, and was really only propped up by from the depths discounts allowing you to pair it with brann.

2 mana Bash sure is a card. Still weird to me cause I'll happily play Darkbomb in wild, and don't think 2 mana deal 3 face damage needs a big upside. But I guess Tooth of Nefarian didn't break standard or anything, so maybe Bash is fine.

1 mana Slam also sure is a card. 1 mana draw a card is basically playable (see for example: tradeable) so the main thing holding slam back will be opponents who don't present a target.

(For what it's worth, 2 mana bash and 1 mana slam would instantly break quest hunter, but maybe they're not a balance issue in warrior).

Ahh.

Well, macaw is going to be a 3/3 now instead of a 10/10 (or 17/17 with brann) so that's something?

So I've been experimenting with some of the buffed classes.

Demon hunter sukcs. Relics suck. Emptying your hand sucks. I lost every game I tried with this class. Maybe it's playable with some of the legendaries I don't own?

Enrage warrior with bash and slam has felt...reasonable? 2-0 with the deck. The deck definitely has issues with draw and sometimes needs to make awkward plays, BUT it has a bunch of charge damage so it sneaks a bunch of wins.

Paladin is...the new silver hand cards are okay.

I did actually lose to a DH with paladin, but the DH was doing something completely different than what I tried (big DH using Abyssal Depths to tutor Vanndar. Also a Prince Renathal deck).

Honestly, Renathal might be the way to go with DH. Several of the decks I tried just decked themselves and ended up in fatigue.

Rogue is very strong right now. there was no need to buff Edwin.

Tempo Pally seems ok, saw a Quest DH list but it looked janky

Yeah, the devs did write a post somewhere that mentioned Edwin specifically; I can't find a link to the original (someone copy/pasted it onto another forum without a link) but here's the section that talks about about Edwin:

Were taking a few swings with this patch, notably the buff to Edwin. One of the interesting parts of the patch leak was that the Edwin buff was spotted early, and we had the chance to hear plenty of feedback from players about their concerns with the Edwin change before it made its way to live. I want to talk about the Edwin change in the context of a point of feedback on the patch that I don't fully disagree with that this patch appears to be arriving at an awkward time.

We had to lock in all of the changes for this patch a week ago, which was before any of the Masters Tour decks were posted and before the emergence of the Lambyseries Rogue deck. At the time we locked in the changes, Rogue looked like it was in deep trouble and in need of some foundational help. A few days later, players were doing well with Rogue decks at the MT and that story had changed. This is the risk we run when attempting to react quickly to problems, there will be sometimes be situations where developing situations change.

If we could have watched the MT before locking in the Rogue balance changes, would we still have done the buff to Edwin? I dont think we would have, but I don't think that automatically makes this change bad for game health. My expectation is that the class will be powerful now. However, will it be TOO powerful? Was there a better change to make? We were shooting for Rogue to hit ~50% winrate and thought we needed Edwin to get there. Obviously, we can always revert Edwin in the future if need be. We'd like to be able to take the occasional stab at spicy changes like this which reinforce the identity of a class, and if the feedback is ultimately that players don't like it we're happy to pivot.

Original Edwin is back to being 3 mana in wild for what it's worth (and...frankly not very good in wild).

They've also indicated that if they bring it back to standard, they're probably bringing it back at 3 mana not 4 mana. (It was only nerfed to 4 mana due to Foxy Fraud, which is wild only now).

Ok so Quest Priest is actually pretty nuts, was my legend climb deck

ZachO apparently thinks this is the worst set of nerfs of all time because of the nerf to...Snowfall Guardian?

https://twitter.com/ZachODR/status/1561057339666571266

Supposedly shaman is dead now (which, I mean...I wondered if shaman would hang on just because they can freeze the board so many times, but on paper Snowfall Guardian now is just a worse version of Varden Dawngrasp, so other than the ability to repeat several times did seem pretty weak. I guess this isn't too surprising).

And at least according to ZachO this is causing the format to spiral into rock-paper-scissor nonsense.

Druid is becoming a problem (partially due to the shaman nerfs, but also the warlock nerfs) which...sure, I believe that; I haven't been playing Shaman or Warlock, but all the other decks I've tried since the expansion launched seems to lose to druid.

Next ZachO flags the edwin buff as a possible problem (but the devs already know that).

And then finally ZachO mentions that Quest Hunter/Mage will be a problem if they nerf druid. (Which...honestly, it's probably time to nerf Quest Hunter anyway. I was pretty disappointed when I tried to ladder with a bunch of new cards, they didn't work, and quest hunter was the deck that proved effective).

Who is ZachO?

In my last seven or eight games I've played three Priests in wild, all running Darkbishop Benedictus and Princes Malchezaar and Renathal. I thought it was just a guy who went afk the first time, but all three of them did nothing all game long. Not even hero powering and roping like bots normally do.

I feel like I'm missing something.

Control as an archetype is just about dead, and thus, so is my interest in the base game.

....... That said, when you're able to steal Guff, games do kinda become fun again.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/2/9/4/AANxMBAADnhG.jpg

The next balance patch is apparently in the pipe:

https://twitter.com/AlecoGereco/status/1564412811526098944

Expected that the decisions will be locked in by Friday, and the actual patch will be out next week.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Im bummed Theotar is likely getting nerfed. Best card theyve ever made.

I can't really see any reason why they would nerf it. There's almost no deck where it has a particularly high drawn winrate that I can find. Just quest priest where the drawn winrate on it looks good.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Denathrius isnt a problem either. Brann is. He always has been.

Yeah, I'd be fine with a Brann nerf, or just banishing him back to wild. Pretty sure if it wasn't for Brann, they never would have nerfed Tidal Revenant either. I just don't think 8 mana for 5 damage and 8 armour would have been a problem. But the fact that it was sometimes 10 damage and 16 armour? Yeah, 16 armour is borderline insurmountable for some decks.

I'm not convinced Denathrius is fully not a problem without Brann, though. I do think the fact that druid sometimes gets two denathriuses through moonlit guidance might still be obnoxious, though won't happen every game, of course.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Mage location should probably be at 2 durability.

Seems reasonable to me. Dunno if it's enough or if they should hit something else from mage as well, but that location has felt silly whenever I've played it.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Quest hunter should be deleted from life.

As someone who used it for easy wins this month...I sure hope so. It bothers me how little it feels like a new deck using new strategies. Sure it has wildseed spells in it, but that's like 2 new cards.

I actually tried to switch decks to the theoretically higher tier aggro druid, but kept facing mages and some quest priests which are both like 100% win for me with quest hunter, and difficult matchups for aggro druid, so...yeah, kept on spamming quest hunter, felt dirty.

Won't be playing it next ladder season regardless, cause I DE'd the wildseed cards right at the end of the nerf window, but yeah, it's just been around too long, and is the last of the four obnoxious UiS quests.

(There were people out there taking an anti-quest stance in general, but I don't think that's fair, I've only ever really been bothered by warlock, hunter, warrior, and mage quests, and even in the case of mage I'm not sure the quest itself was the problem. In fact I think they could safely revert that quest at this point--Incanter's Flow and Cram Session are no longer in standard, and the deck straight up I don't think would function without them. Cram Session being a draw 5 post quest completion, and all the cards you draw having a discount from incanter's flow was the problem).

metroidcomposite posted...

I can't really see any reason why they would nerf it. There's almost no deck where it has a particularly high drawn winrate that I can find. Just quest priest where the drawn winrate on it looks good.

After they completely obliterated Illucia my guard is up concerning anything to do with hand disruption.

Everyone Else: Screaming about battlegrounds being p2w.
Me: There's another exclamation point I can't get rid of? Fuckin hell...

UltimaterializerX posted...

How the hell did BG get popular? Every time I try the mode it's garbage.

It was essentially truly free to play, and the fact that the game is so random on what you get means every game plays different and you have to be able to set up a board. Theres more strategy in it than traditional hearthstone too. But its also easier to set up than other auto battlers

Think the pass system kinda kills it though

don't take my theotar

he's the prince that was promised

battlegrounds is so unbelievably boring compared to TFT. most of the fun strategy and player interaction is gone (can't even scout boards!). there's effectively no economy management to speak of, and there's like 2 dominant strategies total (big stats, deathrattles). the cards also just hit each other like in hearthstone so the fights aren't even fun to watch compared to watching 3d models run around the board and throw spells at each other.

it still has a decent skill cap i suppose but they've stripped so much of what makes the genre fun to me

I'd say Battlegrounds has the advantage of having a lower barrier of entry. I don't feel like I have to use my brain near as much as I do for TFT.

Its pretty easy to understand, yeah. The curves are the main thing to really understand and which tier 5s/6 are better to go for depending on your lobby

Beasts/Elementals/Pirates/Murlocs usually 5
Mechs/Dragons/Nagas/Quillboars/Demons usually 6 (or stay on 4 for Mechs/Dragons/Quillboars tempo)

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I'd say Battlegrounds has the advantage of having a lower barrier of entry. I don't feel like I have to use my brain near as much as I do for TFT.

The second half of this is definitely true if you're trying to play semi-competitively, but I'm not actually sure about the first half. i think the TFT barrier to entry is a bit overstated. A ton of people I know from college or high school who are fairly casual gamers are actually really into TFT. they don't make it past like gold or so in ranked but play 100+ games every set. These are generally a similar group to the people I know who used to play hearthstone casually back in like 2014 or 2015 and absolutely loved tavern brawls but have since quit and never looked back. but maybe that just speaks more to the general migration of that group of people away from hearthstone before the battlegrounds mode ever even came out.

i.e. the knowledge barrier to 'being good' is lower in battlegrounds but the knowledge barrier to entry is probably pretty comparable

UltimaterializerX posted...

Theotar is incredible, but their nerf philosophy is "kill anything that sees a lot of play" because they're idiots.

If that was the case they'll nerf Prince Renathal, which is in way more decks than Theotar.

(Or Brann, who's also in more decks than Renathal).

Camden posted...

After they completely obliterated Illucia my guard is up concerning anything to do with hand disruption.

I mean...Illucia was deleted because she could make your opponent skip their entire turn. She was put into a hyper aggro deck that would empty their hand and then illucia to give the opponent an empty hand.

metroidcomposite posted...

I mean...Illucia was deleted because she could make your opponent skip their entire turn. She was put into a hyper aggro deck that would empty their hand and then illucia to give the opponent an empty hand.

Then they should've changed Illucia to remove her ability to do that instead. Something like 'Swap hands with your opponent until the end of your turn' works, no reason to play it on turn three if you don't have the mana to play any of their cards and then they just immediately get them right back. If you wanted to instead preserve the ability of your opponent to still fuck with your hand on their turn, you could give them a cheap/free spell to swap back early ala Togwaggle. It's a little clunkier but at least the card isn't dead. I'm sure there's other options out there as well that were infinitely better than what we got.

Camden posted...

Then they should've changed Illucia to remove her ability to do that instead. Something like 'Swap hands with your opponent until the end of your turn' works

I agree, they should do that, and it would succeed in turning it into not a timewalk while keeping the disruption aspect.

They've been really light on reverting nerfs on old cards recently, though. Like...Level Up is still 6 mana in wild. Posessed Lackey is still 6 mana in wild.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1LYUjNfCN6rJED4RX7tkCR0phE63ZIMlM2t5xmm37X2E/mobilepresent?slide=id.g24fd8fda7d8559b1_5

I think this guide probably is a little better, and its from the best BG player too