Current Events > Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas wins women's 500-yard NCAA title

(+) Yeah! (+)

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

He's right

TommyG663513 posted...

I read your post. It was bad. I just addressed some of it in my previous post to you.

You're getting called out for making bad faith arguments. Address them or I'm just gonna block you. Not dealing with someone who argued based on culture war feelings and not actual truth.

You live in your own realty. Nothing you just said applies to me, but it definitely applies to you. Please block me. I'd be totally cool with that...

Rayman2943 posted...

He's right

You must be his alt because you're the only one that thinks so...

TommyG663513 posted...

Seriously? Do you have a link?

Like you mean calling for the USA to go to war with Russia?

I mean, he has said some awful and stupid things many times, but calling for the US to engage in a war with Russia has to be by far the dumbest take I've ever seen from him.

I'd also have to see the post for myself to believe it so I'd appreciate a link if it is still up

@TommyG663513

It was a few weeks back but it definitely happened.

Mutantjohn was calling him out too lol.

US, Nato, whoever. Someone had to invade Russia lol.

TommyG663513 posted...

Stop making bad faith accusations of concern trolling. It is so dumb and intellectually lazy. You're just labeling someone and not engaging with their argument.

I know who the people I'm talking about are and it's clear to me what they're doing. We're not in debate club, I don't need to use nice words to avoid speaking my mind. I'm having an informal as fuck discussion on gamefaqs and speaking my mind.
My argument is that in the event this is not overstated and it actually is a real issue worth pouring time and effort into, we should have the conversations you mention below. My point is, I try very hard to not get sucked into moral panics, which this issue at times seems to me to be.

TommyG663513 posted...

A legitimate argument that I can somewhat understand is that concern for this "on the whole" is overstated, but the few anecdotes we have are very concerning.

I'm not at all in the camp of excluding trans people.

I'm in the camp.of let's start rethinking how we separate divisions. It was simple with men's and women's. I feel with the inclusion of trans persons we need to rethink this.

Keep in mind too, trans men will also be at a significant disadvantage and this is also about increasing availability for them as well.

In certain sports like weight lifting that ALREADY have TONS of different divisions based on things like weight class and age, adding a trans division would be very simple.

*Shrug* I have no issue with any of that. It's where the discussion needs to ultimately go to.

Her significant advantage is a big skeleton and having practiced swimming all her life.

How is that unfair? She worked hard.

the person went through puberty as a male, so should be competing against other males

hsvhighlife posted...

the person went through puberty as a male, so should be competing against other males

She went through a testosterone induced puberty. The reason you refer to her as "the person" (not even 'this' for specificity, jfc) instead of she/ her is pretty obvious.

Robot2600 posted...

Her significant advantage is a big skeleton and having practiced swimming all her life.

How is that unfair? She worked hard.

Gee, I wonder why she has a big skeleton!

DystopiaMan posted...

Gee, I wonder why she has a big skeleton!

1 active post, meaning it's this one

gunplagirl posted...

She wwnt through a testosterone induced puberty.

what are you trying to say here?

hsvhighlife posted...

the person went through puberty as a male, so should be competing against other males

Solution: Society starts supporting trans people as young as possible so that they do not continue to go through the wrong puberty.

Also, everyone concerned about the safety of women and fairness never weeps for trans women in men's leagues. Or trans men in men's leagues. Or trans men in women's leagues. There are advantages and disadvantages there that could result in someone getting hurt or demoralized.

gunplagirl posted...

1 active post, meaning it's this one

So? My point still stands.
Of course I know we're not allowed to have a real conversation on here like real people would have about this. It wouldn't be transphobic or anything. Just that I don't feel like Lia Thomas should be competing with other women and it is an unfair advantage. Even with all the stuff Lia has went through.

hockeybub89 posted...

Also, everyone concerned about the safety of women and fairness never weeps for trans women in men's leagues. Or trans men in men's leagues.

That's because there's no segregation in "men's leagues "

it's just that women can't compete in them due to biology so we created women's leagues for women

Anyone who succeeds in the "male" league did so on an even playing field

If a boy in a woman's body scored the winning touchdown at the superbowl , that would be fucking awesome

A bottom tier male weightlifter transitioning and within 2 years breaking 7 female records is just demanding we pretend science doesn't exist

Which my friend is religion

DystopiaMan posted...

So? My point still stands.
Of course I know we're not allowed to have a real conversation on here like real people would have about this. It wouldn't be transphobic or anything. Just that I don't feel like Lia Thomas should be competing with other women and it is an unfair advantage. Even with all the stuff Lia has went through.

Can you scientifically prove that Lia Thomas has an unfair advantage? Specifically that it is unfair? What is fair?

indica posted...

You live in your own realty. Nothing you just said applies to me, but it definitely applies to you. Please block me. I'd be totally cool with that...

@indica

Have you considered making a post that isn't lazy and trollish?

gunplagirl posted...

I guess I'd have to ask what division the team is in, I did high school sports in an AAA league so we actually had funding and a good amount of other teams in our league. Meanwhile the nearby AA league schools had like 4 schools and not all of them had teams for every sport. But college is funded way better

My school is in rural WI. 200 students, 27 T&F athletes.

CyricZ posted...

Can you scientifically prove that Lia Thomas has an unfair advantage? Specifically that it is unfair? What is fair?

https://www.healthline.com/health/benefits-testosterone

edit: read that Lia Thomas blocks T but doesn't take estrogen supplements. Why? couldn't be the adverse musculoskeletal effects of estrogen, oh no (that every other female swimmer would have to deal with)

@TommyG663513 I thought you were blocking me. What happened?

hsvhighlife posted...

edit: read that Lia Thomas blocks T but doesn't take estrogen supplements. Why? couldn't be the adverse musculoskeletal effects of estrogen, oh no (that every other female swimmer would have to deal with)

Okay what about that is unfair outside of your personal feelings?

CyricZ posted...

Okay what about that is unfair outside of your personal feelings?

you don't think it's an unfair advantage for someone to go through puberty with tremendously higher levels of testosterone, allowing them to be taller, longer limbed, have increased muscle mass, increased lung capacity and increased cardiac output in a sport where all of those things are critical?

TommyG663513 posted...

@hockeybub89

Do you understand how left leaning this site is?

I see this all the time in super liberal places. People put out this BS purity test.

You're also the person who is CONSTANTLY calling other people bigots and you make emotionally laden arguments with no respect or understanding of facts. In short, like none of your arguments should be taken seriously. I'm pretty convinced you only ever post on GameFAQs and have nothing else going on with your life. It sounds like for you, calling people bigots makes you feel important and like you're doing good.

@TommyG663513

Like maybe 50%.

Mods let open bigotry run pretty rampant and it's clear that the majority of vocal opposition in any LGBT topic is from people who hate the community, and not some liberals concerned about objectivity and leftist messaging.

You're free to stop lying about me at any time. I have never called someone a bigot when it wasn't called for. You hate a caricature of a radical leftist that somehow makes you ashamed to be a leftist, but that is not me. Notice how I have not implied that you are a bigot, because I can see that you are not criticizing or "disagreeing" with the rights or validity of a minority.

The science on this issue is still being challenged. The current NCAA policy this year allows Lia to compete from the metrics they have for the 2021-2022 season. The NCAA is adapting the USA Swimming policy after the 2022 season. This new policy cuts the testosterone allowance to less than 5 nmol/L and must be for a 36 month period before application to participate in competition. I believe Lia is competing with double the testosterone limit allowed and only 1 year requirement. I don't believe she would be allowed to compete when the new policy takes effect.

What I don't know is if the new policy indicates that the governing body of Swimming believes there are advantages for someone that is within that 36 month window. I assume it means they think there is or why have the 36 month testosterone level testing period.

To me, if the science is still being studied and under the new policy, Lia would ineligible, I can't 100% right now say it is fair competition until more research is known.

Actually estrogen improves muscles and bone function, but hurts the function of tendons and ligaments.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2018.01834/full

eaglei3 posted...

The science on this issue is still being challenged. The current NCAA policy this year allows Lia to compete from the metrics they have for the 2021-2022 season. The NCAA is adapting the USA Swimming policy after the 2022 season. This new policy cuts the testosterone allowance to less than 5 nmol/L and must be for a 36 month period before application to participate in competition. I believe Lia is competing with double the testosterone limit allowed and only 1 year requirement. I don't believe she would be allowed to compete when the new policy takes effect.

What I don't know is if the new policy indicates that the governing body of Swimming believes there are advantages for someone that is within that 36 month window. I assume it means they think there is or why have the 36 month testosterone level testing period.

To me, if the science is still being studied and under the new policy, Lia would ineligible, I can't 100% right now say it is fair competition until more research is known.

You say more research is needed, but the governing body obviously doesn't think so. Why would you be so concerned for the sport yet simultaneously unwilling to accept their decision to let trans athletes participate in human society?

Robot2600 posted...

You say more research is needed, but the governing body obviously doesn't think so. Why would you be so concerned for the sport yet simultaneously unwilling to accept their decision to let trans athletes participate in human society?

straw manning this big time. no one says not to let them participate in human society. the argument against this competitor is that she has/had an unfair biological advantage and should be competing against other biologically similar athletes (against males, like she did her first 2 years in college...)

Robot2600 posted...

You say more research is needed, but the governing body obviously doesn't think so. Why would you be so concerned for the sport yet simultaneously unwilling to accept their decision to let trans athletes participate in human society?

I don't understand your comment here. They (USA Swimming) just made a policy change LESS THAN 2 MONTHS AGO. Obviously these governing bodies are doing some sort of research or the new policy change would not have happened.

hsvhighlife posted...

straw manning this big time. no one says not to let them participate in human society. the argument against this competitor is that she has/had an unfair biological advantage and should be competing against other biologically similar athletes (against males, like she did her first 2 years in college...)

How is it a straw man? You are telling her to choose between the thing she trained her entire life for and getting medical attention. It's by telling trans athletes this that you keep them in the closet, intentionally or not.

Robot2600 posted...

How is it a straw man? You are telling her to choose between the thing she trained her entire life for and getting medical attention. It's by telling trans athletes this that you keep them in the closet, intentionally or not.

are you saying she trained her entire life to compete only against females? i never once said she shouldnt be allowed to swim. just that she needed to stay in the division she was already competing in for the first 2 years of her college career, due to her biological advantages

eaglei3 posted...

I don't understand your comment here. They (USA Swimming) just made a policy change LESS THAN 2 MONTHS AGO. Obviously these governing bodies are doing some sort of research or the new policy change would not have happened.

My point was that people are very quick to criticize the NCAA over this, when the NCAA obviously thinks there has been enough research and guidelines to allow her to compete this year.

People crawl out of the woodwork suddenly the most diehard NCAA Women's Swimming fan you've ever fucking seen. Suddenly almost everyone used to swim competitively too!

You cry about evidence and research while citing her, specifically, as anecdotal evidence of unfairness because she won.

We ignore the evidence that estrogen actually helps muscles and bones, while hurting tendons and ligaments. We demand trans women take estrogen smoothies everyday, even if they don't want to. Even if they did, you would cry "unfair, unfair!" It's more control, control over women's bodies, and it's just more of the same.

hsvhighlife posted...

are you saying she trained her entire life to compete only against females? i never once said she shouldnt be allowed to swim. just that she needed to stay in the division she was already competing in for the first 2 years of her college career, due to her biological advantages

so we care so much about biological advantages, what about the biological advantages of the male swimmers she would have to compete against, that you are so quick to point out exist?

why do you care so much about all the other women getting a fair shot, but you don't give a shit if this one woman, specifically, gets a fair shot?

Robot2600 posted...

so we care so much about biological advantages, what about the biological advantages of the male swimmers she would have to compete against, that you are so quick to point out exist?

why do you care so much about all the other women getting a fair shot, but you don't give a shit if this one woman, specifically, gets a fair shot?

i hope she does get her fair shot, but i don't think making it unfair for the other 10k+ swimmers is the way to go. too many people ignore that corporate policy should written with the majority in mind, not fringe cases (10k+ NCAA female swimmers and only a handful identify as trans) .

TommyG663513 posted...

@TheVipaGTS

What history?

Wtf are you talking about?

Nothing you've said ITT had been reasonable or made sense.

It's obvious who picks an argument based on what "their team" picks in the culture war and who actually cares about truth.

Me? I hate culture wars and let's have an honest discussion about the truth. Stop being so blatantly anti science.

You think this is the first time a transgender athlete has competed in competition? It happens all the time. They dont always win. They dont always display a competitive advantage. What is wrong with you?

TommyG663513 posted...

@MrToothHasYou

Oh wow this is an even more horrible post.

There are no transphobes here. You're arguing with some straw man caricature in your head. What absolute garbage bad faith logic. Argue with something else other than your feelings.

Given that in the past week there was a pool topic about why some feminists refuse to acknowledge that trans women are women, and over a third of the poll respondents indicated that they agreed with that sentiment, and did not believe that trans women are women, then Im sorry to say youre full of shit. There are transphobes here, and they are numerous.

indica posted...

@TommyG663513 I thought you were blocking me. What happened?

You keep posting garbage and I feel compelled to respond. Maybe I'll just tag you instead. You don't think labeling someone as a bully is an ad hominem. You're too cowardly to engage with an argument you don't like.

TheVipaGTS posted...

You think this is the first time a transgender athlete has competed in competition? It happens all the time. They dont always win. They dont always display a competitive advantage. What is wrong with you?

"They don't always win and don't always break records, therefore there's no advantage" is a non-sequitur

TheVipaGTS posted...

You think this is the first time a transgender athlete has competed in competition? It happens all the time. They dont always win. They dont always display a competitive advantage. What is wrong with you?

No it is very rare that it would happen at the collegiate and Olympic level. To be an athlete at that level is exceptionally rare in terms of the percentage of the population that could achieve that. Being a trans person is also statistically very low. So the odds of possessing two traits, being a high level athlete AND bring trans generally isn't going to happen often.

So here we are. A few very concerning anecdotes and it is reasonable to think there may be more anecdotes in the future.

We dont need to have meltdowns over this, but it seems fair to question the current divisions we have and how we could better accommodate everyone. In certain sports like weightlifting where there are seemingly infinite categories to compete under, a trans division would be very appropriate. In team sports where numbers are a factor, it may not be viable.

It's just time to start rethinking what we are doing rather than put trans women into what was originally envisioned as a cis woman category, but that is being challenged.

UnfairRepresent posted...

That's because there's no segregation in "men's leagues "

it's just that women can't compete in them due to biology so we created women's leagues for women

Anyone who succeeds in the "male" league did so on an even playing field

If a boy in a woman's body scored the winning touchdown at the superbowl , that would be fucking awesome

A bottom tier male weightlifter transitioning and within 2 years breaking 7 female records is just demanding we pretend science doesn't exist

Which my friend is religion

What does science have to do with playing sports ball? It's entertainment, a diversion, a hobby. The religion is how sacred we hold sports. I am likely the biggest sports nerd here, and it's silly how much America values sports beyond being fun to play and entertaining to watch.

And shouldn't we be fearful for female bodies being harmed playing in a strong men's league? Shouldn't we worry about the advantages a trans man may have over a cis woman on a even playing field?

UnfairRepresent posted...

"They don't always win and don't always break records, therefore there's no advantage" is a non-sequitur

No it isnt. The argument is that theyll always have a clear competitive advantage. The reality is that is not true. If they dont always win why are you hanging onto advantage so much. Clearly the advantage as you seem to be discussing it doesnt nearly make them better.

TheVipaGTS posted...

No it isnt. The argument is that theyll always have a clear competitive advantage. The reality is that is not true.

A competitive advantage does not have to be overwhelming in all cases to still exist.

Tenlaar posted...

A competitive advantage does not have to be overwhelming in all cases to still exist.

Do we need to ban all competitive advantages then, or single out trans women because that's the culture war this stupid country is fighting?

hockeybub89 posted...

Do we need to ban all competitive advantages then

Let's just say that steroids are already banned from fair competition for a good reason.

hockeybub89 posted...

What does science have to do with playing sports ball? It's entertainment, a diversion, a hobby. The religion is how sacred we hold sports. I am likely the biggest sports nerd here, and it's silly how much America values sports beyond being fun to play and entertaining to watch.

So would you be cool if the next season of NFL allowed the Seahawks to have 29 players on the field?

Why not? Why are you taking it so seriously? It would be fun to play and entertaining to watch?

Sure it would ruin the entire game and the concept of sport entirely, but stop treating sport like a religion! It's meant to be a laugh!

This doesn't hold water. Especially on a PROFESSIONAL level where athletes are competing for money as their careers and in ranked leagues.

And shouldn't we be fearful for female bodies being harmed playing in a strong men's league? Shouldn't we worry about the advantages a trans man may have over a cis woman on a even playing field?

Sure but it's up to them to compete in that game.

Same as it would be for any woman to compete in the NFL.

The women who compete in womens leagues do so because the only way they can play the sport at a professional level is if they don't play against male biology. Going "Well fuck that and fuck you for caring about sport" is pretty much nonsense.

Going "I don't care about records people dedicated their lives to achieving so why do you?" is just pure sociopathic egotism.

TheVipaGTS posted...

No it isnt. The argument is that theyll always have a clear competitive advantage. The reality is that is not true. If they dont always win why are you hanging onto advantage so much. Clearly the advantage as you seem to be discussing it doesnt nearly make them better.

I don't want to weigh into this topic too much. I understand it's an emotional issue for many people. But from a math point of view you can be 10 times as likely to win against the average competitor with the same amount of training and you still won't "always win".

Expecting "always winning" as a requirement of "clear competitive advantage" does not map to what that means.

Having 10 times the chance to win is a clear competitive advantage, having 10 times the chance to win does not mean you will always win, thus requiring somebody always win is not a valid requirement to prove they "have a clear competitive advantage".

I would have to look to detailed breakdowns of the science to make an argument if transwomen have such an advantage, I'm currently not making that argument. But I am mathematically confident enough to make the argument that "always winning" is an invalid requirement to prove "clear competitive advantage".

Good for her. For those who say it is fair. The double morals are that if it is fair for her to compete because there is no advantage, why do we have separate men and women competition?

They should just be merged into a mixed competition since biology doesnt matter...

samurai bandit posted...

Good for her. For those who say it is fair. The double morals are that if it is fair for her to compete because there is no advantage, why do we have separate men and women competition?

They should just be merged into a mixed competition since biology doesnt matter...

the "male" competition IS mixed

no women can compete

There have been NFL tryouts for women

"women's " leagues were created for this reason

I only disagree with a transgender woman competing in MMA/Boxing that doesnt feel correct everything else hey girls you better get good. please dont ban me yo

i also donot agree with a transgender male competing against cis men in mma or boxing.

samurai bandit posted...

Good for her. For those who say it is fair. The double morals are that if it is fair for her to compete because there is no advantage, why do we have separate men and women competition?

They should just be merged into a mixed competition since biology doesnt matter...

I do think it would be useful if people made clear what their stances was on the division of men/women's sports as a whole concept.

If one thinks that cismen/ciswomen can compete fairly against each other, then obviously it is intellectually consistent to believe a transperson should be able to compete in whatever gender division they identify with.

If however you acknowledge a too significant to ignore competitive advantage between cismen and ciswomen, we have a separate conversion about the source of that advantage and if transitioning sufficiently negates that source.

It is counter-productive for two people operating from different starting premises to have a discussion about this without making clear which premise they start from, because IMO they will just be talking past each other.

For example, @gunplagirl I am curious if you believe cismen/ciswomen can compete fairly against each other. Or is there, in your mind, a too significant to ignore competitive advantage between cismen and ciswomen?

I am fine with either answer, but I do think your response would be illuminating.

hockeybub89 posted...

@TommyG663513

Like maybe 50%.

Mods let open bigotry run pretty rampant and it's clear that the majority of vocal opposition in any LGBT topic is from people who hate the community, and not some liberals concerned about objectivity and leftist messaging.

You're free to stop lying about me at any time. I have never called someone a bigot when it wasn't called for. You hate a caricature of a radical leftist that somehow makes you ashamed to be a leftist, but that is not me. Notice how I have not implied that you are a bigot, because I can see that you are not criticizing or "disagreeing" with the rights or validity of a minority.

Ok I stopped reading once you said this board is only 50% left leaning lol.

You're just so insanely far left you have no clue