Current Events > Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas wins women's 500-yard NCAA title

(+) Yeah! (+)

Unite posted...

Looks like she hasnt had top surgery? Has she had bottom surgery?

Would it matter?

MrToothHasYou posted...

Yes, as I said, it would be quite a feat, but it doesnt make her some sort of out-of-everyone-elses-league monster athlete who shouldnt be allowed near a pool with her big hairy knuckles and man shoulders, or whatever the fuck certain bigoted people are trying to paint her as.

@MrToothHasYou

Oh wow this is an even more horrible post.

There are no transphobes here. You're arguing with some straw man caricature in your head. What absolute garbage bad faith logic. Argue with something else other than your feelings.

TommyG663513 posted...

@MrToothHasYou

Oh wow this is an even more horrible post.

There are no transphobes here. You're arguing with some straw man caricature in your head. What absolute garbage bad faith logic. Argue with something else other than your feelings.

Why do you keep trying gaslight people into the idea that there are no actual bigots on CE, and that they're just yelling at made-up people?

emblem boy posted...

My post in message #112 is how I feel about this. Honestly, I just find it hard to believe the seriousness of the issue

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/79947609/963550156

@emblem_boy

You live in a fantasy world dude

Just admit that perhaps trans females have an advantage of cis females. No one reasonable will call you a bigot for stating so.

googs19 posted...

Its not just sports topics. It seems like whenever trans issues are brought up in general it is about women, even though there are pretty equal numbers of trans men and women.
A lot of this probably comes down to society seen masculine things as good, and feminine things as bad.
If a trans man wants to transition, even if transphobes would never accept them as a man, it is still seen as only natural that they would want to be a man.
But if a trans woman wants to transition, "they must be crazy because there is no way any sane person would 'choose' to be a woman."

@googs19

Like everything about this post is false. Everything I've ever heard from trans people involved in trans communities is that they see a lot more trans men than trans women.

Maybe instead of excluding certain women from participating in women's sports, we redefine the boundaries between different sports divisions around something other than gender that results in everyone being able to participate as their true selves.

Since those boundaries are already arbitrary.

hockeybub89 posted...

Why do you keep trying gaslight people into the idea that there are no actual bigots on CE, and that they're just yelling at made-up people?

@hockeybub89

Do you understand how left leaning this site is?

I see this all the time in super liberal places. People put out this BS purity test.

You're also the person who is CONSTANTLY calling other people bigots and you make emotionally laden arguments with no respect or understanding of facts. In short, like none of your arguments should be taken seriously. I'm pretty convinced you only ever post on GameFAQs and have nothing else going on with your life. It sounds like for you, calling people bigots makes you feel important and like you're doing good.

TommyG663513 posted...

@TheVipaGTS

There is always an awful post like this.

Do you suddenly care about sports at all? What is it with the lazy ad hominem argument? Do you not have anything decent to say? Why resort to such a terrible argument? Is it because you are only here in bad faith?

What Ad Hominem? I dont care for womens swimming so I didnt make this topic. I highly doubt those who are against this care about the sport either. They just care about attacking transgenders under the guise of Omg I care about the other swimmers!fuck off, dude.

ZMythos posted...

Maybe instead of excluding certain women from participating in women's sports, we redefine the boundaries between different sports divisions around something other than gender that results in everyone being able to participate as their true selves.

Since those boundaries are already arbitrary.

This is reasonable

googs19 posted...

The problem is that most of the time it is never the athletes or fans of the sport who have their voices heard, and if it is it is just because they happen to agree with whatever argument is being made.

What are you on about?

Are you really claiming that the fans of swimming and weight lifting and the athletes who dedicate their lives to competing in it don't care that womens records are being smashed routinely by transgender athletes?

And that all of them simply forgot why the sports were sex segregated in the first place?

There's a reason why every time the GOP pulls this nonsense they surround themselves with female athletes for photo ops.

As I said it's the one single ground in the entire argument they can actually win on.

ZMythos posted...

Maybe instead of excluding certain women from participating in women's sports, we redefine the boundaries between different sports divisions around something other than gender that results in everyone being able to participate as their true selves.

Since those boundaries are already arbitrary.

How? Height? Weight? Men would dominate in either case.

Fucking over cis women athletes to own the transphobes

@TommyG663513

Do you realize how annoying it is to constantly tag people just to bitch them out for their views, which, honeslty, are much better expressed than your own--you are activity being a bully on this board for no apparent reason >_>

What are her times like compared to men out of curiosity

TommyG663513 posted...

@hockeybub89

Do you understand how left leaning this site is?

I see this all the time in super liberal places. People put out this BS purity test.

You're also the person who is CONSTANTLY calling other people bigots and you make emotionally laden arguments with no respect or understanding of facts. In short, like none of your arguments should be taken seriously. I'm pretty convinced you only ever post on GameFAQs and have nothing else going on with your life. It sounds like for you, calling people bigots makes you feel important and like you're doing good.

He was calling for war with Russia lmao

People haven't blocked Tommy numbers yet?

Nemu posted...

How? Height? Weight? Men would dominate in either case.

Height, weight, testosterone levels...and no, I don't automatically assume that a man in the same weight class and testoterone level as a woman would dominate them >_>

gunplagirl posted...

People haven't blocked Tommy numbers yet?

Is he always this much of a pointlessly antagonistic bully?

TommyG663513 posted...

@emblem_boy

You live in a fantasy world dude

Just admit that perhaps trans females have an advantage of cis females. No one reasonable will call you a bigot for stating so.

Wait what?

TheVipaGTS posted...

What Ad Hominem? I dont care for womens swimming so I didnt make this topic. I highly doubt those who are against this care about the sport either. They just care about attacking transgenders under the guise of Omg I care about the other swimmers!fuck off, dude.

You say what Ad hominem?

Then you go on to make an ad hominem argument of accusing the "other" of having thinly veiled homophobia.

Honestly, how do you lack this much awareness?

emblem boy posted...

Wait what?

Trans females generally speaking, will have athletic advantages over cis females.

Just admit it. It's obvious to anyone who has any understanding of sports at all

And history proves otherwise but go ahead and hang on to your false beliefs.

Rayman2943 posted...

He was calling for war with Russia lmao

Seriously? Do you have a link?

Like you mean calling for the USA to go to war with Russia?

I mean, he has said some awful and stupid things many times, but calling for the US to engage in a war with Russia has to be by far the dumbest take I've ever seen from him.

I'd also have to see the post for myself to believe it so I'd appreciate a link if it is still up

UnfairRepresent posted...

What are you on about?

Are you really claiming that the fans of swimming and weight lifting and the athletes who dedicate their lives to competing in it don't care that womens records are being smashed routinely by transgender athletes?

And that all of them simply forgot why the sports were sex segregated in the first place?

There's a reason why every time the GOP pulls this nonsense they surround themselves with female athletes for photo ops.

As I said it's the one single ground in the entire argument they can actually win on.

I'm sure there are legit fans of the sport who do actually care about the topic and have legitimate (and non legitimate) concerns. It sucks that people have used those concerns to concern troll this issue and soured the discourse so much.

Yet I lean on the side that the concern about this is probably overstated and we're only hearing about a specific minority of cases where a trans athlete actually wins something.

indica posted...

Is he always this much of a pointlessly antagonistic bully?

He's also really good at making up nonsensical hypotheticals that demonstrate a lack of understanding then reiterating it as a gotcha.

TheVipaGTS posted...

And history proves otherwise but go ahead and hang on to your false beliefs.

@TheVipaGTS

What history?

Wtf are you talking about?

Nothing you've said ITT had been reasonable or made sense.

It's obvious who picks an argument based on what "their team" picks in the culture war and who actually cares about truth.

Me? I hate culture wars and let's have an honest discussion about the truth. Stop being so blatantly anti science.

It's not hard to conceive of a system where athletes are divided into n classes based on preliminary trials and subsequent competitions with a standardized score that follows them throughout their career. Similar to an MMR system, but comparing times, distances, etc. Instead of pure wins and losses. You move up and down the class structure as you compete, and are only paired with athletes in your same class.

Over time, positions will naturally sort themselves. Awards and accolades would be distributed by class and not just overall best.

They already do this in some sorts, but with the added arbitrary men/ women division.

indica posted...

Height, weight, testosterone levels...and no, I don't automatically assume that a man in the same weight class and testoterone level as a woman would dominate them >_>

The logistics of trying to arrange fair competition using all three metrics would be pretty impossible, I'd imagine. That and men and women are built differently, so I don't think it's very likely you can find many men and women who'd be equal in all three aspects. Even at the same exact weight, they're going to be built differently.

@TommyG663513
>_> you know what you're doing and you should feel bad for it

ZMythos posted...

It's not hard to conceive of a system where athletes are divided into n classes based on preliminary trials and subsequent competitions with a standardized score that follows them throughout their career. Similar to an MMR system, but comparing times, distances, etc. Instead of pure wins and losses. You move up and down the class structure as you compete, and are only paired with athletes in your same class.

Over time, positions will naturally sort themselves. Awards and accolades would be distributed by class and not just overall best.

They already do this in some sorts, but with the added arbitrary men/ women division.

Sounds needlessly and prohibitively expensive to apply to any intercollegiate sports and especially high school ones.

But we have to have sports though.

We need to know who is better. So those who are worse can be properly shamed for it.

Nemu posted...

The logistics of trying to arrange fair competition using all three metrics would be pretty impossible, I'd imagine. That and men and women are built differently, so I don't think it's very likely you can find many men and women who'd be equal in all three aspects. Even at the same exact weight, they're going to be built differently.

While men and women are built differently, I think you'd be surprised how many women would be able to compete on a fairly equal ground with those three metrics...but that's just a starting point until we have a better understanding as we shift out of binary concepts

TommyG663513 posted...

Me? I hate culture wars and let's have an honest discussion about the truth

Bro, aren't you the one who said gay people were buying cakes to fish out a lawsuit?

emblem boy posted...

I'm sure there are legit fans of the sport who do actually care about the topic and have legitimate (and non legitimate) concerns. It sucks that people have used those concerns to concern troll this issue and soured the discourse so much.

Yet I lean on the side that the concern about this is probably overstated and we're only hearing about a specific minority of cases where a trans athlete actually wins something.

@emblem_boy

Stop making bad faith accusations of concern trolling. It is so dumb and intellectually lazy. You're just labeling someone and not engaging with their argument.

A legitimate argument that I can somewhat understand is that concern for this "on the whole" is overstated, but the few anecdotes we have are very concerning.

I'm not at all in the camp of excluding trans people.

I'm in the camp.of let's start rethinking how we separate divisions. It was simple with men's and women's. I feel with the inclusion of trans persons we need to rethink this.

Keep in mind too, trans men will also be at a significant disadvantage and this is also about increasing availability for them as well.

In certain sports like weight lifting that ALREADY have TONS of different divisions based on things like weight class and age, adding a trans division would be very simple.

In team sports where numbers need to be kept up to even have a league then things get more complicated. I'd also argue trans people will likely have less advantages/disadvantages in team sports due to the nature of pure athleticism not always being the defining factor in success

Skype posted...

Bro, aren't you the one who said gay people were buying cakes to fish out a lawsuit?

Yes, I remember that he said all the lawsuits were frivolous

gunplagirl posted...

Sounds needlessly and prohibitively expensive to apply to any intercollegiate sports and especially high school ones.

Not really. They already do this in high school track and field. As you compete in the season you're sorted into flights/heats based on previous feats. Athletes in the same flight are of similar ability and compete against one another.

The only differences between that system and mine are that a) there's still the men/ women divide, b) awards are only presented to the overall winners instead of by flight, and c) records are discarded between seasons and after high school

You just need a standardized infrastructure, and if it means dissolving barriers between men's and women's sports while also being trans inclusive then I think it's worth considering.

indica posted...

@TommyG663513
>_> you know what you're doing and you should feel bad for it

@indica

What am I doing and why should I feel bad?

TommyG663513 posted...

@indica

What am I doing and why should I feel bad?

@TommyG663513 I clearly explained in other posts I tagged you in...>_>

indica posted...

While men and women are built differently, I think you'd be surprised how many women would be able to compete on a fairly equal ground with those three metrics...but that's just a starting point until we have a better understanding as we shift out of binary concepts

@indica

Ok now you're just making stuff up lol

You have no idea what you are talking about

If you can't discuss this honestly and picked your side based on your feelings about the culture war then just go home. The world doesn't need culture warriors.

ZMythos posted...

Not really. They already do this in high school track and field. As you compete in the season you're sorted into flights/heats based on previous feats. Athletes in the same flight are of similar ability and compete against one another.

The only differences between that system and mine are that a) there's still the men/ women divide, b) awards are only presented to the overall winners instead of by flight, and c) records are discarded between seasons and after high school

You just need a standardized infrastructure, and if it means dissolving barriers between men's and women's sports while also being trans inclusive then I think it's worth considering.

They didn't sort like that for field events except when it came time to have the varsity extra rounds, and I did the long distance events in track so there was only ever one heat for guys and girls.

indica posted...

While men and women are built differently, I think you'd be surprised how many women would be able to compete on a fairly equal ground with those three metrics...but that's just a starting point until we have a better understanding as we shift out of binary concepts

If you arranged something like that, I think the only possible result would be cases where it's smaller men competing against slightly larger women in the flyweight level categories, men absolutely dominating the mid ranges, and women being pretty much nonexistent in the upper categories. The way you'd have to arrange things to try to have any real fairness would just be logistically impossible.

indica posted...

While men and women are built differently, I think you'd be surprised how many women would be able to compete on a fairly equal ground with those three metrics...but that's just a starting point until we have a better understanding as we shift out of binary concepts

R u trolling. The best woman of all time in tennis plays like a top 600 man lol

indica posted...

@TommyG663513 I clearly explained in other posts I tagged you in...>_>

@indica

Tagging a person isn't a big deal. You're doing it to me and you are welcome to do it and engage in good faith.

Calling out bad logic isn't bullying someone. I can label someone's argument all day long.

Your arguments are awful, because they're based in ad hominems. If you have a point against my arguments then please state so.

TommyG663513 posted...

@indica

Ok now you're just making stuff up lol

You have no idea what you are talking about

If you can't discuss this honestly and picked your side based on your feelings about the culture war then just go home. The world doesn't need culture warriors.

@TommyG663513 You decided to skip my posts expressiing your bad faith argument just to make another one. Do some research like I did before telling someone they're "making stuff up" or at least cite some evidence to support your contrary view point. Otherwise, you're just trolling and not worth anyone's time.

gunplagirl posted...

They didn't sort like that for field events except when it came time to have the varsity extra rounds, and I did the long distance events in track so there was only ever one heat for guys and girls.

Speaking as a current hs track and field coach, I can tell you that the way I described it above is how it works, even for field events. Granted, there will be more disparity when small events and/or small schools are involved.

Some meets do include a finals round for certain events to allow extra attempts at getting the highest score or fastest time. But that varies from meet to meet. Initial seeding of flights is most often determined by past feats.

I can show you a screenshot of a flight sheet from a recent meet if you're interested.

Rayman2943 posted...

R u trolling. The best woman of all time in tennis plays like a top 600 man lol

That's an extreme hyperbole, and, again, you're not even taking into account the three metrics provided as a starting point. I strongly believe a man with the same testosterone and weight as Serena would have a good fight on the court...

indica posted...

@TommyG663513 You decided to skip my posts expressiing your bad faith argument just to make another one. Do some research like I did before telling someone they're "making stuff up" or at least cite some evidence to support your contrary view point. Otherwise, you're just trolling and not worth anyone's time.

I read your post. It was bad. I just addressed some of it in my previous post to you.

You're getting called out for making bad faith arguments. Address them or I'm just gonna block you. Not dealing with someone who argued based on culture war feelings and not actual truth.

ZMythos posted...

Speaking as a current hs track and field coach, I can tell you that the way I described it above is how it works, even for field events. Granted, there will be more disparity when small events and/or small schools are involved.

Some meets do include a finals round for certain events to allow extra attempts at getting the highest score or fastest time. But that varies from meet to meet. Initial seeding of flights is most often determined by past feats.

I can show you a screenshot of a flight sheet from a recent meet if you're interested.

I guess I'd have to ask what division the team is in, I did high school sports in an AAA league so we actually had funding and a good amount of other teams in our league. Meanwhile the nearby AA league schools had like 4 schools and not all of them had teams for every sport. But college is funded way better

TommyG663513 posted...

@indica

Tagging a person isn't a big deal. You're doing it to me and you are welcome to do it and engage in good faith.

Calling out bad logic isn't bullying someone. I can label someone's argument all day long.

Your arguments are awful, because they're based in ad hominems. If you have a point against my arguments then please state so.

You obviously have no idea what an ad hominem attack is as I haven't used one >_> Get some education buddy or you just make yourself look ignorant and hostile--and that's not an ad hominem attack, it's a fact