Current Events > Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas wins women's 500-yard NCAA title

(+) Yeah! (+)

MrToothHasYou posted...

Yes, as I said, it would be quite a feat, but it doesnt make her some sort of out-of-everyone-elses-league monster athlete who shouldnt be allowed near a pool with her big hairy knuckles and man shoulders, or whatever the f*** certain bigoted people are trying to paint her as.

said person was a ivy league swimmer. and not even particularly good at that.

they then go to world class by womens standards and that's not odd to you at all.

Congrats to her

Rayman2943 posted...

said person was a ivy league swimmer. and not even particularly good at that.

they then go to world class by womens standards and that's not odd to you at all.

Nobody cares when a cis woman is a world class competitor except fans of that sport, and maybe people at home during the Olympics.

AngelsNAirwav3s posted...

If we are talking about the testosterone threshold for most Olympic sports: 1 year of testing underneath 10 nmol/L, or 288.5 ng/dL in order to compete in the women's division.

Normal testosterone levels for a male is between about 300 ng/dL and 1,000 ng/dL
Average female testosterone is between 15 and 75 ng/dL

Comparing those numbers, a trans athlete has to keep their testosterone level below a threshold that is 4x the high end of testosterone for women in order to compete.

A lot of people look at those testosterone numbers and think it is unfair.

If that's the concern, shouldn't people have an issue with born as female athletes who are naturally at that 288 range as well?
Or do they?

emblem boy posted...

If that's the concern, shouldn't people have an issue with born as female athletes who are naturally at that 288 range as well?
Or do they?

They don't

Maybe we can protect the human rights of trans people AND support their transition from as young as possible.

Then maybe we can worry about "issues" like them winning mid-length women's swimming events sometimes.

Fox News and Republicans polticians are loud about this and silent on the bigotry being put into law across the country.

gunplagirl posted...

Nobody cares when a cis woman is a world class competitor except fans of that sport, and maybe people at home during the Olympics.

lol what? people like naomi osaka and serena williams don't have fans?

or simone biles? r u serious

Good for her. :)

Rayman2943 posted...

people like naomi osaka

The last time we had a Naomi Osaka topic it was to bitch at her for being emotional.

Here it is:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/79940800

And look its the same guy posting the topic, dropping thinky emoji, and leaving.

gunplagirl posted...

Nobody cares when a cis woman is a world class competitor except fans of that sport, and maybe people at home during the Olympics.

I'm not well versed in this topic, so I'm probably wrong in my opinion, but I don't really like this argument.

I 1000% agree that this whole issue has been taken over by many concern trolls who don't truly give a damn about women's sports. They're assholes.

Yet... I'm sure there are legit fans of the sport who do actually care about the topic and have legitimate (and non legitimate) concerns.

And it sucks, because the whole discourse is so tainted.

I lean on the side that the concern about this is probably overstated and we're only hearing about a specific minority of cases where a trans athlete actually wins something.

Rayman2943 posted...

lol what? people like naomi osaka and serena williams don't have fans?

or simone biles? r u serious

Should Serena have been banned for being naturally advantaged over other tennis players? The best of the best are almost never just really hard workers.

CyricZ posted...

The last time we had a Naomi Osaka topic it was to bitch at her for being emotional.

Here it is:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/79940800

And look its the same guy posting the topic, dropping thinky emoji, and leaving.

Lmfao

hockeybub89 posted...

Should Serena have been banned for being naturally advantaged over other tennis players? The best of the best are almost never just really hard workers.

Serena should try competing with men.

Oh wait she already did and she got destroyed by a mediocre player. They said she played like a top 600 mens player when she was the absolute best woman on earth.

Rayman2943 posted...

lol what? people like naomi osaka and serena williams don't have fans?

or simone biles? r u serious

...yes the ones at the top of their sports obviously have fans. I think the point was that the average sports fan has very little interest in women's highschool and college sports

Rayman2943 posted...

Serena should try competing with men.

Oh wait she already did and she got destroyed by a mediocre player. They said she played like a top 600 mens player when she was the absolute best woman on earth.

So what you're saying is it's not controversial for a woman to be better than other women and making them compete with the men is silly.

emblem boy posted...

...yes the ones at the top of their sports obviously have fans. I think the point was that the average sports fan has very little interest in women's highschool and college sports

Right but they still have their niche fans and athletes that shouldn't just be discarded lol.

hockeybub89 posted...

So what you're saying is it's not controversial for a woman to be better than other women and making them compete with the men is silly.

You know what I'm implying. I won't go further.

I lost to a person taller then me in basketball once. Where's my justice.

Rayman2943 posted...

You know what I'm implying.

We sure do.

I see Cyric has found the transgender topic to post his usual shit in.

There goes any actual discussion or arguments.

Slayer_22 posted...

I see Cyric has found the transgender topic to post his usual shit in.

There goes any actual discussion or arguments.

Hockeybub is just as bad lol. He spent 250 posts arguing for war with russia

Rayman2943 posted...

Hockeybub is just as bad lol. He spent 250 posts arguing for war with russia

Hockeybub has yet to 'heavily imply' I'm a bigot multiple times, and I don't fully recognize his name so I can't really comment on what he has or hasn't said lol

Rayman2943 posted...

Right but they still have their niche fans and athletes that shouldn't just be discarded lol.

My post in message #112 is how I feel about this. Honestly, I just find it hard to believe the seriousness of the issue

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/400-current-events/79947609/963550156

CyricZ posted...

We sure do.

And you know deep down.

I'm right.

Slayer_22 posted...

I see Cyric has found the transgender topic to post his usual shit in.

There goes any actual discussion or arguments.

Meanwhile youve made exactly one post in this topic, and used the whole thing to complain about another user instead of making any sort of relevant contribution to the discussion.

You always hear about the MtF crowd in these sports topics. What about the FtM folx? Are they out there smashing records too?

Always felt like they have an unfair advantage but idk what transitioning does to the body to truly know.

MrToothHasYou posted...

Meanwhile youve made exactly one post in this topic, and used the whole thing to complain about another user instead of making any sort of relevant contribution to the discussion.

I have nothing I've felt I needed to add until now.

But I'm sure Cyric's one off implicatory responses are definitely worth defending.

Rayman2943 posted...

And you know deep down.

I'm right.

I can't remember the last time you've been right on this board.

CyricZ posted...

I can't remember the last time you've been right on this board.

Hey at least I don't bring up dead girlfriends

Rayman2943 posted...

Hey at least I don't bring up dead girlfriends

That's a really weird tangent to go off on

Rayman2943 posted...

Hey at least I don't bring up dead girlfriends

Hey! He was FORCED to do that. He was egged on into saying that, despite not being the first person to bring it up!

How dare you bring that up.

Tag

Flauros posted...

You always hear about the MtF crowd in these sports topics.

Its not just sports topics. It seems like whenever trans issues are brought up in general it is about women, even though there are pretty equal numbers of trans men and women.
A lot of this probably comes down to society seen masculine things as good, and feminine things as bad.
If a trans man wants to transition, even if transphobes would never accept them as a man, it is still seen as only natural that they would want to be a man.
But if a trans woman wants to transition, "they must be crazy because there is no way any sane person would 'choose' to be a woman."

googs19 posted...

even though there are pretty equal numbers of trans men and women.

Is this a true statement?

I think is this the one ground progressives lose on when it comes to transgenders

You can't ignore physical biology

Testosterone, bone density, muscle mass, chemical balance

This isn't a social concept or the soul, it's tangible physical science and reality

one day we might have treatments that completely undo this but at present we don't

There's a reason sex segregated women's divisions were invented in the first place

I fear well meaning progressives give the GOP tons of ammunition in a war the GOP can't win on merit by passionately arguing that we ignore science because it might hurt someone's feelings

GOP turns round and says "Transgenders shouldn't own property " and then get booed out of the building

If the GOP turns around and says "Transgenders are ruining your daughters sports and making her cry" they get applause and support. Which they then manipulate into anti LGBT legislation

See the don't say gay bill

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Bathroom bills.

TheVipaGTS posted...

all of a sudden people care about womens college swimming, huh?

@TheVipaGTS

There is always an awful post like this.

Do you suddenly care about sports at all? What is it with the lazy ad hominem argument? Do you not have anything decent to say? Why resort to such a terrible argument? Is it because you are only here in bad faith?

googs19 posted...

Its not just sports topics. It seems like whenever trans issues are brought up in general it is about women, even though there are pretty equal numbers of trans men and women.
A lot of this probably comes down to society seen masculine things as good, and feminine things as bad.
If a trans man wants to transition, even if transphobes would never accept them as a man, it is still seen as only natural that they would want to be a man.
But if a trans woman wants to transition, "they must be crazy because there is no way any sane person would 'choose' to be a woman."

Oh yeah, the fact that most in society subconsciously (or consciously) consider male to be inherently superior is a big driver of anti-MtF sentiment. Its also just generally easier for trans men to pass, especially if they are able to get top surgery.
Also, as amply demonstrated in-topic, the general public is broadly ignorant as to the details of HRT and that nuking testosterone levels is both a vitally important and really straightforward component of transition. And also just how radically going from a male hormonal profile to a female hormonal profile alters the body, even more so for someone as young as Lia.

RamboCell29 posted...

Crazy idea here that I think most reasonable people would agree with...

1) A legal adult should be able to live however they want to and society should work to accept that.

2) It should be understood there are physical differences between biological males and females and that greatly impacts things like competitive sports.

Frankly it is an insult to women's sports for a biological male who was ranked 400-something as a men's swimmer to now compete for and win a NCAA women's championship.

I hope Lia Thomas lives a happy fulfilling life as a woman but she has no business competing with biological females in sporting events.

This is really the only reasonable take anyone in this topic should be having.

There are no alt right arguments on this board.

Only far left arguments that want to ignore basic facts.

yeah for the record, I don't care about swimming or weightlifting or track races at all and never have pretended to.

That doesn't mean I think it's okay to not care about the athletes involved or the fans or the sport itself.

It's such a silly argument. It's a very sociopathic way of thinking.

"Why do you care if Bill's car was stolen? Are you Bill? Was your car stolen?"

I feel bad for Bill dude. Try to be less egotystical

Gucci_Josh posted...

People who always try to talk about "biologically male/female" are just dogwhistling their transphobia.

If the other women lose to her, they should train harder, not bitch about how it's "unfair".

It's not unfair. It's a woman's league. SHE'S A WOMAN. The discussion ends there for anybody who isn't dogwhistling a "transwomen aren't women" belief.

@Gucci_Josh

Absolutely terrible argument. Accusations of straw manning are you just making BS straw man arguments. Stop being so intellectually lazy.

People born as male who transitioned to female post puberty will have athletic advantages. Whether you deem that fair or unfair is another thing, but the advantages are undeniable.

Robot2600 posted...

she didn't shatter the records she just won some races :P

edit: the fact is we allow all kinds of "biological" advantages in many sports, advantages such as height. If we really cared, then we would separate a sport like basketball and swimming into height-classes, just like we do with weight-classes in other sports--but we don't.

people want to accuse trans athletes of transitioning for an advantage, when 100% of the time they fear transitioning because they love the sport so much

Gucci_Josh posted...

Exactly.

This whole idea that anybody transitions for advantage in sports is stupid as fuck.

They do it because it's their real gender. They do it to SURVIVE.

@Robot2600
@Gucci_Josh

Wow

Two terrible takes. Please tell me how someone who ranked 300 as a man and is now number 1 as a woman does not have a significant advantage

AirFresh posted...

You know we have transgendered users on this site. How about instead of being openly hostile you simply ask questions. It was a new concept for me and I've said some stupid and ignorant things in the past but I took advantage of actually just treating them like a human being and getting their perspective. It's a different perspective from yours, take advantage and be civil about it. Just ask "Why do you think it's fair? It seems to give an advantage." Transgendered people appear to be openly hostile but think about constantly being told that you're some kind of freak, you're disgusting, etc, wouldn't you be defensive? Their hostility in all honesty stems from having to constantly be on the defense with people who simply want you dead because you chose a path to happiness.

@AirFresh

No one ITT is being hostile towards trans people. The only ignorance ITT is people who don't know anything about sports and don't understand the significant advantage this swimmer has.

yemmy posted...

Is this a true statement?

I've seen that called out before, but looking for actual data it seems like there are studies that go both ways and that there isn't really a lot of good data on the subject.

UnfairRepresent posted...

That doesn't mean I think it's okay to not care about the athletes involved or the fans or the sport itself.

The problem is that most of the time it is never the athletes or fans of the sport who have their voices heard, and if it is it is just because they happen to agree with whatever argument is being made.

MrToothHasYou posted...

Shell need to improve pretty significantly for that to happen - just running her time through a basic conversion (NCAA uses 25 yard pools, Olympics use in 50 meter pools) she would have finished somewhere around 5th or 6th in the Tokyo Olympics. An incredible feat, to be sure, but not exactly a headline that will inspire the kind of outrage transphobes are looking to provoke. What are they gonna say, Just think of the poor girl who took 7th?

@MrToothHasYou

Ok this is a special type of awful post.

This swimmer went from ranked 300 or so in men's to number 1 in women's. Then you argue it isn't that bad, because they'd ONLY (lol) rank just shy of a podium at the Olympics.

So you're arguing that a person can compete as a man and be unremarkable as a male, but be one of the best female swimmers in the world and this is not statistically significant?

Do you listen to yourself at all?

Looks like she hasnt had top surgery? Has she had bottom surgery?