Board 8 > FFXIV ENDWALKER FINALE unmarked spoilers topic (FULL 6.0 SPOILERS)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Oh those Lynx mounts look sick. Gonna finally try and get good now that Endwalker is out so I can actually get them.

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Currently I am doing crafting and mining stuff and will probably do an old alliance raid today. I have a stupid amount of side content at my finger tips to dig into!!

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Seeing other people elsewhere say this game didn't have enough despair to feel like it earned its happy ending makes me question people's ability to feel empathy.

Like, what lol

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Mother fuckers should do some of those space dragon sidequests.

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Final trial while not hard I just loved how it was the "EVERYTHING" Song. The Maker's Ruin remix plus the Song of Hope during the victory lap was the best.

Oh yeah, also loved how beast tribes, alliances raids, normal raids, trial series, all came together in Old Sharlayan. Took them long enough for Cid to show up. Like why are we not asking Cid for help from the start when we got a spaceship to fix? Lol

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The medley shit fucking broke me.

I would have been doomed if it wasn't a victory lap.

Speaking of beast tribes, what's the rollout like for that?

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Is the Zenos slugmatch hilarious if you're a Lala?
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Estinien: Why are you so concerned for me, anyway?
WoL: Because I love you.

game keeps failing to give the good options ;_;
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Mac Arrowny posted...

Is the Zenos slugmatch hilarious if you're a Lala?

Yes
https://clips.twitch.tv/PhilanthropicAnnoyingFinchOSkomodo-CCQbZXOQEVq3zjnu

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Some various thoughts:

I feel like in this expansion I preferred the slower parts to the more action packed parts. I was more into the Loporrit stuff than Garlemald, for example, and Elpis was my favorite part of the whole thing. Just going around talking to people without pressure is nice.

Likewise, I want to say that I like FFXIV more when the MC's more isolated. Being with all the Scions for the whole expansion was a big negative, partly because they slow things down so much. It's much better when there's only one or two around at a time, or when they only come together for big moments. Having them separated at the start of Heavensward and Shadowbringers is a big part of what makes those expansions so great for me. Gives more of a sense of adventure and isolation. On the plus side, we get Estinien and G'raha with us most of the time, which is great, since I like them way more than the classic scions. On the negative side, Alphinaud is way more interesting when he's suffering than when he's succeeding, as with several of the others, and he has more successes here than in any other part of the game.

It's cool how varied the areas are. The six areas are all for totally different regions, which gives them a different feel than any other part of the game. Going around exploring them was almost always fun ,though Labyrinthos would've benefited from being smaller, and exploring the moon (outside of the Loporrit city) was a lot less interesting than I hoped. I know it's the moon, but I think there should've been more variety and interesting stuff to find. Elpis was the best, naturally.

I was kind of disappointed this expansion wasn't giving us any cool new important characters, since the previous expansions were good at that. But then we got Venat, who's awesome, and Hythlodaeus who isn't technically new, but is cool here in a different way than he was previously. I loved how they made Hydaelyn a good character since there wasn't much to her before.

Fandaniel was shit. All his scenes and boss fights were lame. Bringing back Asahi and not letting you punch him in the face was dumb. Zenos was boring early on, but all his scenes after beating Zodiark are pretty hilarious. I wish there was an option to just ignore him at the end - feels like that would've been more satisfying. Him showing up as a dragon to rescue you made me burst out laughing and was fabulous.

People seemed to like the themes of the later stuff, but I really wasn't into the "all civilizations other than humanity give up on life and desire death" thing. I wish they'd emphasized that those were only the ones Meteion ran into or that she misinterpreted somehow. Stuff like giving up on life because you know the universe is going to die feels bad since we in the real world already know the universe is going to die and no one really cares. I think this could've been executed a lot better. I liked the Omicrons and the Dragons, but the Ea weren't my thing. Meteion was a pretty good concept that I wish I'd liked better. The final dungeon and what came after were excellent, at least. Really great climactic scenes.

As soon as Estinien sacrificed himself it was pretty obvious they were all coming back, so those sacrifices didn't really hit me hard or anything. Still good scenes, and bringing back Emet+Hydrolathus at the end was a fantastic surprise since I thought the Scions were going to come back instead.

Finally, this is probably something that no one else cares about, but it bothers me a lot that traveling back to Elpis creates a stable time loop. We already know that G'raha created a new timeline when he traveled back, so why didn't that happen here? They could even have had a fun thing where WoL saves another world, but still has to go back and deal with their own because they won't abandon their original timeline. I would've liked that more, at least. The erasing memories stuff seems kinda contrived, and you'd think Venat would've been competent enough to stop the original Final Days early with all her foreknowledge...
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Finally finished. Really need to get to bed, so quick thoughts before something more substantial tomorrow.

Expansion was good overall, I'm very happy they managed to nicely wrap everything up. I found the Zenos stuff at the to be a bit excessive, but I'm glad it actually ended. It really felt like they didn't know what they wanted to do with him.

My gut reaction is that Shadowbringers is still the best expansion. Endwalker was good, and maybe I had my expectations too high, but I left feeling a little wanting. I'm not sure for what though, I'll need to think on that a bit.

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Did the Stigma dungeon. What a fantastic banger of a song that place has.

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Finished the storyline last night. Easily the best expac of all time, and in turn, the best Final Fantasy. What can I even say about it? It makes me so happy that the storyline is a retelling of the parable of the bluebird of happiness, but with the twist of reinforcing that the bluebird could not be found because of existential dread. People are saying it wasn't as 'hype' as Shadowbringers, but I think they missed the point. We're not at Ultima Thule to kill anyone. We're there to prove that hope is greater than despair, and that even though the universe is a cold and uncaring place, our actions give it warmth and meaning. And everything, everything worked perfectly from that standpoint, as did who the final boss was. It's not Meteion -- she's 'defeated' before we even embark on the final dungeon, as the fact she turns back into a little blue bird proves. The final enemy is the sum of the universe's sorrow, suicidal ideations, depression and regret and it's incredible how we get to kick it in the fucking face. As a tank, the fact that we got the starring role by LB3ing in this of all duties couldn't make me happier.

AND THEN ZENOS DUDE. Can I say how much I fucking love what they did with him? There's technically three answers you can give him and I appreciate they let people have room to be boring but thematically speaking, why pick anything but the first one? It's so perfect! After denying despair, what else is there to do but live? And that's exactly what Zenos offers us there, genuinely and without catches or threats, a chance to push ourselves to the utmost and celebrate life by going to and beyond our limits. Saving the full version of the final theme for him was truly inspired. I didn't see it coming, and actually lost my shit when I got to mano a mano him. I want an EX of that solo duty so badly now, ughhhhhh

Just an absolutely perfect expac, top to bottom, with an incredibly humane and gentle message. I wasn't sure if they could better Endwalker but they exceeded all expectations. I'm so happy to have been a part of this community here, in this moment.

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Some more expanded thoughts now that I've slept on it.

- The first act of the game was very good. I liked Sharlayan and Thavnair a lot, and it was good set up for what was coming. Capping it off with Tower of Zot was great (even if I struggled with that Magus Sisters fight)
- Garlemald was interesting from a story perspective, though I found the area itself a bit less interesting. I didn't care for the 83 solo duty in practice, even though in theory it was really cool. Really enjoyed Tower of Babil, especially the overt FF4 stuff (Barnabus just smashing Lugae at the start of the fight got a smile out of me).
- Moon, again, was interesting story-wise, though the area left something to be desired, and was a hassle to navigate before you got flying. The Zodiark trial coming this early was a welcome surprise, and I'm glad they went this route and got Fandaniel out of the way before too long. The Loporrit section felt like a dragged a bit.
- Final Days Thavnair was a high point. This section was super bleak and I really appreciated the heck out of it. The scene where the guy watches his kid turn into a monster and then immediately get stepped on was fucking brutal and probably one of the things that is most going to stick with me this expansion.
- Elpis was the other, obvious, high point. I did feel like it was a bit fanservice-y at the start, but the way they actually fleshed out some of the Ascians (Emet-Selch especially, and without cheapening anything that happened in Shadowbringers) was excellent. I still have some misgivings about Meteion as a character, and the game gets a little heavy-handed about the life doesn't matter stuff, but I can appreciate some existential dread, so I was okay with it. I was also disappointed we never got to see Azem.
- Return on Sharlayan was definitely the weakest part of the xpac. This section really felt like padding to me. I also wasn't particularly engaged by the 89 dungeon, though the Hydaelyn trial was great.
- The final area is mixed for me. When you first land, it's great - this huge empty space, devoid of life, bleak and empty and it's fucking dope - until you get out of the cutscenes and there's like 10 people running around on tigers and driving cars. It was a weird dissonance that kinda broke the immersion for me. The scion 'sacrifices' felt a bit flat because it was very obvious none of it was permanent. I also didn't actually love the musical choice here. The You're Not Alone part was good, though.
- The final dungeon/trial was good, and a mostly satisfying conclusion, though it kind of lacked the awe that Amaurot/Hades had at the end of ShB. For me anyway. I really didn't like the music in the last dungeon either - this was actually something that followed through most of the expansion, I didn't find the soundtrack, save a few (mostly cutscene) songs, to be all that memorable. Which, given how good Soken has been in the past, was a tad disappointing.
- Zenos. I've been anti-Zenos ever since they brought him back, and I don't think this changed anything for me. The final fight didn't feel like it had any gravitas because I never really saw Zenos as a rival, he was just a walking monologue post-Stormblood, so it was hard to take this bit seriously. But I don't think I was ever going to be satisfied with anything they did with his character, so in the end I'm accepting of how they ended it.

Overall, I think I wish the bigger moments had a bit more emotional weight, because they didn't hit me that hard (the Venat scenes post-87 aside). The smaller ones were much more impactful and were the ones that affected me most (Urianger's conversation with Moenbryda's parents killed me, despite the fact the Moenbryda is a character I have zero attachment to). Which is fine, but for such an epic, sweeping conclusion to the story, I though those bigger moments would have felt a bit more impactful.

Anyway, these are my thoughts, and I did really enjoy this expansion and am looking forward to diving into some of the post-game stuff and harvesting mats forever.

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KanzarisKelshen posted...

*BIG TEXT*

Agreed on all fronts. I've really been trying to determine if thinking this was better than Shadowbringers was just a gut reaction, but I just can't see any way out of that conclusion for me.

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I think some people who think ShB is better are just remembering the super highs of the end and the ramifications tbh. I might be wrong but some people complain about pacing and it is like "I love ShB but every MMO in history has some pacing issues!"

Maybe every JRPG, even lol

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Yeah for all that Endwalker's start is super slow, the start IS the place to have slow pacing. ShB meanwhile has Il Mheg and the back half of Ahm Areng as zones that mostly don't matter (relatively speaking of course -- Magnus is super important because he manages to serve as a mirror to Thancred, Emet-Selch and the ascians in general all at the same time, super well used character), and Ran'jit stinking up the joint being a really bad knockoff Zenos. EW has no such weak spots.

Also GOD

I just ran the 90 trial in roulette again

Its back half truly just hits different. I'm sorry if this is a little personal guys, but I had to deal with such crippling depression when I was in high school I basically took an entire year off of living, really more a year and a half. I've talked to friends and helped them come down from suicidal ideations. I've seen people fall into tilt spirals, and stayed up til 5 AM just to make sure they were OK and knew what was wrong and that someone cared. To fight an enemy that is the living incarnation of depression, that screams and wails 'EVERYTHING IS WRONG! THERE IS NO MEANING! LIFE HAS NO VALUE! NO ONE SHOULD HOPE FOR BETTER!' and kick its face is always going to make me emotional, I think. It's all the sadness in the world, channeled through a little girl who's very scared to believe things can get better, and I...man...I'm so glad this game lets us Be There for someone like that. All that, and set to some of the rawest guitarwork I've ever heard. It's literally just chords, but it doesn't NEED to be anything more to carry the moment. It's perfect. Straight up perfect.

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KanzarisKelshen posted...

People are saying it wasn't as 'hype' as Shadowbringers, but I think they missed the point. We're not at Ultima Thule to kill anyone. We're there to prove that hope is greater than despair, and that even though the universe is a cold and uncaring place, our actions give it warmth and meaning. And everything, everything worked perfectly from that standpoint, as did who the final boss was. It's not Meteion -- she's 'defeated' before we even embark on the final dungeon, as the fact she turns back into a little blue bird proves. The final enemy is the sum of the universe's sorrow, suicidal ideations, depression and regret and it's incredible how we get to kick it in the fucking face. As a tank, the fact that we got the starring role by LB3ing in this of all duties couldn't make me happier.

AND THEN ZENOS DUDE. Can I say how much I fucking love what they did with him? There's technically three answers you can give him and I appreciate they let people have room to be boring but thematically speaking, why pick anything but the first one? It's so perfect! After denying despair, what else is there to do but live? And that's exactly what Zenos offers us there, genuinely and without catches or threats, a chance to push ourselves to the utmost and celebrate life by going to and beyond our limits. Saving the full version of the final theme for him was truly inspired. I didn't see it coming, and actually lost my shit when I got to mano a mano him. I want an EX of that solo duty so badly now, ughhhhhh

So you love that you're not there to kill anyone but you also love killing Zenos? What?

And again, you do nothing to stop the suicidal ideations of countless alien races. It's insane to me that they all wish for oblivion with no exceptions other than Etheirys.
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Mac Arrowny posted...

So you love that you're not there to kill anyone but you also love killing Zenos? What?

And again, you do nothing to stop the suicidal ideations of countless alien races. It's insane to me that they all wish for oblivion with no exceptions other than Etheirys.

Because it isn't true.

Meteion is an unreliable narrator, and the last zone is from her perspective, not what actually happened. Like the second part of the last dungeon happens because of Meteion (the journals mention her coming as what sparks it)

Basically she saw suffering for the first time being from paradise, freaked the fuck out, and caused a dynamis reaction over and over and over on different planets, her (and her sisters) horror turning every planet worse.

Basically Hermes alone being angry was enough to upset her. Now imagine going to Earth and seeing all of the suffering on Earth. Millions of people starving, at war, angry.

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Yeah the info logs in the last part of the dungeon are very enlightening. Is there a way to go back and read those elsewhere?

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I might not've seen all the ones in the last dungeon. I remember the one civilization having two groups that fight each other, then inventing some sort of weapon so powerful that it kills everyone on the planet (intentionally?). Then the third civilization creates a god to kill them all (I feel like this was a reference to primals, but I'm not totally sure).

I did see that Meteion made other planets worse/destroyed other civilizations, too. I would've liked to have seen those though. Only seeing one side sucked.
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The third one her presence made them feel like nothing mattered.

It was actually maybe too subtle. They didn't hit you over the head but also if you were relaxing and going through it was like "oh yeah I guess some of this isn't just all DESPAIR but actual hax"

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So you love that you're not there to kill anyone but you also love killing Zenos? What?

And again, you do nothing to stop the suicidal ideations of countless alien races. It's insane to me that they all wish for oblivion with no exceptions other than Etheirys.

Yes, it makes perfect sense. We don't go to Ultima Thule to kill Meteion. From the get-go, the angle was to save her, because she was just an innocent little girl who was thrown out to the universe and forced to feel the pain and despair of untold millions of people. The MSQ delivers on that. Fighting Zenos to the death is likewise a way to give him salvation. He seeks happiness, no matter what it may cost him, and by agreeing to a match with him, we help him find his purpose and leave the world with no regrets. I feel like you have some trouble catching symbolism, maybe? It all pulls towards a central theme.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Because it isn't true.

Meteion is an unreliable narrator, and the last zone is from her perspective, not what actually happened. Like the second part of the last dungeon happens because of Meteion (the journals mention her coming as what sparks it)

Basically she saw suffering for the first time being from paradise, freaked the fuck out, and caused a dynamis reaction over and over and over on different planets, her (and her sisters) horror turning every planet worse.

Basically Hermes alone being angry was enough to upset her. Now imagine going to Earth and seeing all of the suffering on Earth. Millions of people starving, at war, angry.

I'm actually not sure Meteion is the one that caused the disaster in the second section of the dungeon. IIRC, wayyyy back when you're in Elpis, she mentions a certain civilization destroyed itself upon being uplifted by alien visitors in a massive bloody war, and the log itself says 'visitors' and not 'visitor' too. She just witnessed the horror, and at most made it worse by acting as a force multiplier on the murderous rage, but she didn't cause it.

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Also, to emphasize this: it's not insane that the species we see all end up experiencing suicidal ideation. They're all symbolic. Literally all of them. The fishes represent the existential dread of losing your life or your loved ones' to uncaring natural causes you can't control or overcome, the dragons represent depression from experiencing loss to the point you stop caring and let yourself die, the Ea represent the overwhelming horror at realizing there is an impending end to all you love and there is nothing you can do to stop it (the parallels to climate change IRL are very obvious here), the warring factions embody blind bellicism to the point of mutual annihilation (fear of nuclear death, among other things), the omicron embody abject fear of the unknown ruling your life and leading you to make hurtful decisions that destroy your chance at happiness, and the Ra-lans represent the gaping void we all feel when we accomplish what we set out to do and can't find a new thing to strive for and become despondent. As an existentialist, I was eating this shit up like popcorn because it was such an effective representation of it all. It was a stark contrast to Amaurot, where the apocalypse is factual and not symbolic, and all the better for it.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I think some people who think ShB is better are just remembering the super highs of the end and the ramifications tbh. I might be wrong but some people complain about pacing and it is like "I love ShB but every MMO in history has some pacing issues!"

For sure, ShB had its fair share of pacing issues, but it wasn't constantly happening. Then again, this kind of thing is pretty subjective.

Also yeah, the implication was that Meteion accidentally became a catalyst for all the suffering in the worlds she saw, which led to people feeling more despair, which pushed made her amplify it more and more. After all her "telepathy" in Elpis is just her transmitting communication via emotional changes.

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Wow, I could not care less about any of that.

I thought HW was almost as good as ShB and better than EW too, which seems to be an uncommon opinion.

trdl23 posted...

Also yeah, the implication was that Meteion accidentally became a catalyst for all the suffering in the worlds she saw, which led to people feeling more despair, which pushed made her amplify it more and more.

Yeah, that part's interesting. Wish we saw more of it, though it doesn't apply to the civilizations that were dead before she arrived.
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Wow, I could not care less about any of that.

And this is why the expac didn't land for you. That's OK. Not everybody's cut out for contemplating philosophy.

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I'm pretty sure 90% of the people who love it are into it because of the non philosophical aspects, but whatever.
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There's a lot of stuff to dig into here and honestly any order ranking of HW, ShB, and EW is fair from a subjective point of view.

All 3 are masterpieces in different ways

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I love HW, but I don't put it on the same level as ShB and EW. The 3.0 villain is "cool" and obviously his motives are meaningful, but nobody really CARES about Thordin.

Estinien is a bro but the way the fandom treats him like the most tragic and beloved figure in the universe is a bit much.

I'm of the opinion that the 3.x patches are a lot better than 3.0 proper.

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Same. Thordan is a total whatever. If we're counting 'story continuation' patches Heavensward is a lot stronger, but I don't feel Azys Lla is a very good final zone at all. Amaurot and Ultima Thule are total masterpieces by contrast (and the Final Steps of Faith DO hold up as a story ending, it's just kinda cheating to force Endwalker to compare to an expac plus three patches)

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Thordan works better as a symbol than a real character I think. For me the atmosphere is the best part of HW. Ishgard is my favorite city in the game by far, with the best town theme by far. I love being there. I love Estinien too though.

I'll agree that Azys Lla isn't great. WAY too big.
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I can see that. Thordan as a representation of Ishgard's calcification and lies made manifest works pretty well. It's just a shame that's all he is. Shinryu is the same concept executed a lot nicer, imo.

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KanzarisKelshen posted...

I don't feel Azys Lla is a very good final zone at all.

I would in fact say it's one of the worst zones in the game, from both an aesthetic and traversal standpoint!

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square it's not too late to add more aetheytes to azys la plz

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Azys Lla works as a throwback to the Floating Continent in FF6, in that it's just as much of a nightmare to navigate.

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Dantezoid posted...

square it's not too late to add more aetheytes to azys la plz

Bruh they won't even add one to The Waking Sands.

Lore trumps all.

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The Mana Sword posted...

- The final area is mixed for me. When you first land, it's great - this huge empty space, devoid of life, bleak and empty and it's fucking dope - until you get out of the cutscenes and there's like 10 people running around on tigers and driving cars. It was a weird dissonance that kinda broke the immersion for me.

ohhhh, yeah, i'm glad i got there early enough that it was still mostly empty. that sort of thing is definitely immersion-breaking, one of the issues with trying to write such an intimate story in what is still ultimately an MMO that has to feature large open worlds

I'm one of the rare people who liked Thordan quite a bit! But yeah, falling in love with Heavensward was all about falling in love with the entire city of Ishgard more than any one person.

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All my crafters and gatherers are 90 and I made all the gear for them. Working on grinding purple scrips for materia now. So much to dooooo.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

I would in fact say it's one of the worst zones in the game, from both an aesthetic and traversal standpoint!

Seconded. The Sea of Clouds is the easy worst navigationwise but it's a lot prettier visually at least.

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Credits seen. Absolutely amazing finale.

Though no one scene quite topped leadup to Dying Gasp, that last trial was just stunning.

And I loved having one last duel against Zenos. I cannot deny my adventurer's spirit, after all!

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I go to Ultima Thule to craft just for the music lol

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Can't wait for the orchestrion roll to come out for the Victory Lap stage of the last trial.

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trdl23 posted...

Can't wait for the orchestrion roll to come out for the Victory Lap stage of the last trial.

It's out already! You just have to do 66 FATEs in the zone.

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