Poll of the Day > Most Americans believe America has changed for the worse since the 1950s

(+) Yeah! (+)

Well that depends on how one sees it. What changes exactly since the 1950s has made America worse. The only significant thing I can think is the Civil Rights Movement began to gain steam around the 1950s.

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Since the 50s? No things have improved since the 50s. But things have definitely gotten worse ever since 9/11.

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BUMPED2002 posted...

What changes exactly since the 1950s has made America worse.

The economy and the idea of "US as #1 global superpower" peaked in the 50s. So people looking for an American "Golden Age" tend to look to it as the definitive moment.

Now we're in a period when faith in government has probably never been lower, the nation is more politically divided than any point other than the actual Civil War era, the economy is slowly crumbling and likely will never recover no matter who gets into office or what policies we pursue, awareness of , and pretty much everyone on the Internet is an asshole.

It's very easy to perceive the present as a terrible shitty time, and start looking backwards for better times to be nostalgic about.

And if you don't look back to the 50s, there's always the 60s (if you want to idolize the Kennedy years), or the 80s (if you're my age and nostalgic for your childhood), the 90s (if you're everyone else on the Internet's age and want to be nostalgic about your Millennial childhood or the economic bubble of the mid-90s), or even the early 00s (if you're too young to remember even further back).

Realistically, the present probably isn't as bad as some people make it out to be, but it isn't as good as it could be, either. Even if a lot of the current problems are probably at least somewhat inevitable (ie, the US losing economic power is at least partly because we never should have had it in the first place - we basically profited from European devastation in the wake of WWII and China's lack of agricultural and industrial power compared to the West. But now Europe is mostly recovered and China is on a much more level playing ground, which means both are tapping into wealth and resources the US monopolized for years).
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Since the '50's? No. Definitely since GWB took office.
And while the 80's and 90's are largely remembered fondly, it was the hyper-capitalism, deregulation, loosening of rules on the stock market (corporate stock buybacks were illegal till 1983), and attacks on labor in the 80's that set the stage for our long slow downfall. Just took some time for it to snowball into disaster.

If there was anything I'd bring back from the 1950s, it'd be the higher taxes on the super rich. Maybe the clothing styles for those who like them, but I'm pretty sure said people already enjoy those styles if they know where to look; so maybe the accessibility of those clothes if anything.

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BUMPED2002 posted...

Well that depends on how one sees it. What changes exactly since the 1950s has made America worse. The only significant thing I can think is the Civil Rights Movement began to gain steam around the 1950s.

Really? Im surprised youre not bitching about gay marriage being legalized given your documented history of homophobia.

But that can't be since Trump made America great again!

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We are better in every metric

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JOExHIGASHI posted...

We are better in every metric

That's funny, because we're among the few "developed" countries that don't use metric. =p

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Did they ask black people?

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Since the 90s, sure, definitely not since the 50s though

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JOExHIGASHI posted...

We are better in every metric

To every metric that matters to you personally, sure.

But there are a number of metrics where we're objectively worse than the 50s regardless of whether you're doing a straight comparison, or a proportional one. The question is just whether or not you care about those metrics, or whether you feel like those negatives outweigh the counterbalancing positives.

Personally I'd rather be living right now than in the 50s, but I'm also not going to make the claim that literally everything is better now.
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Did they only poll white men or something?

ParanoidObsessive posted...

To every metric that matters to you personally, sure.

But there are a number of metrics where we're objectively worse than the 50s regardless of whether you're doing a straight comparison, or a proportional one. The question is just whether or not you care about those metrics, or whether you feel like those negatives outweigh the counterbalancing positives.

Personally I'd rather be living right now than in the 50s, but I'm also not going to make the claim that literally everything is better now.

I suppose if someone was racist, sexist, etc. they would hate modern day and love the 50s.

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Lack of a gold standard and sexual revolution has often been the downfall of any great society.

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BlockWatcher posted...

Lack of a gold standard and sexual revolution has often been the downfall of any great society.

Society was also ass under the gold standard.

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People love to squint through rose-tinted glasses complete with blinkers and specially distorting filter lenses when they look back at the past.

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Criminalt posted...

People love to squint through rose-tinted glasses complete with blinkers and specially distorting filter lenses when they look back at the past.

Yep, has nothing to do the 9/11 fucking everything up, the rising cost of living, social media making people even more depressed and lonely or the government/corporations spying on people... nope, just rose tinted glasses

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JOExHIGASHI posted...

I suppose if someone was racist, sexist, etc. they would hate modern day and love the 50s.

You're assuming everyone would immediately think of those specific things at all when considering the question. Someone focused entirely on economy or global politics wouldn't necessarily think of those things at all.

You're also assuming that women and ethnic/racial minorities can't have the perception that today is equally as bad in those respects as it was back then. After all, if civil rights issues were perfectly solved and totally superior today, BLM wouldn't need to exist, would it? And women wouldn't still be fighting over only earning 70% of what men earn, etc. Not to mention stuff like the constant talk about Roe v. Wade getting overturned, illegal immigrants being detained and having their kids taken away, etc etc. Some people might see the current situation as not being all that much better than they used to be.

You're also assuming that people can't see things like imminent climate collapse, global pandemics, shipping crises, and a 24-hour news cycle constantly sensationalizing and politicizing every negative story make the entire world a worse place for everyone even if they think the individual rights of women and minorities have incrementally improved in the meantime.

We can argue over whether or not people are right (because the question itself is incredibly subjective), but people aren't necessarily wrong or terrible for thinking it if they can justify their reasons (and if their reasons aren't just "Everything was better when black people knew their place and women stayed in the kitchen").
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Given that wife beating and marital rape was legal in the 1950s I dont think a single woman voted in that poll.....

or anyone that likes hot women, or porn, or anything remotely funny....

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Muscles posted...

government/corporations spying on people... nope, just rose tinted glasses

Have you heard of a thing called McCarthyism?

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Do you wish you could go back to a time when the gays were forced to stay in the closet, TC?

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

You're assuming everyone would immediately think of those specific things at all when considering the question. Someone focused entirely on economy or global politics wouldn't necessarily think of those things at all.

You're also assuming that women and ethnic/racial minorities can't have the perception that today is equally as bad in those respects as it was back then. After all, if civil rights issues were perfectly solved and totally superior today, BLM wouldn't need to exist, would it? And women wouldn't still be fighting over only earning 70% of what men earn, etc. Not to mention stuff like the constant talk about Roe v. Wade getting overturned, illegal immigrants being detained and having their kids taken away, etc etc. Some people might see the current situation as not being all that much better than they used to be.

You're also assuming that people can't see things like imminent climate collapse, global pandemics, shipping crises, and a 24-hour news cycle constantly sensationalizing and politicizing every negative story make the entire world a worse place for everyone even if they think the individual rights of women and minorities have incrementally improved in the meantime.

We can argue over whether or not people are right (because the question itself is incredibly subjective), but people aren't necessarily wrong or terrible for thinking it if they can justify their reasons (and if their reasons aren't just "Everything was better when black people knew their place and women stayed in the kitchen").

I could name way more metrics where today is better than 60 years ago. And the whole point of metrics is that they're objective. There is objectively much less racism and sexism today. We objectively have a higher educated population, better technology, better healthcare, higher life expectancy, less poverty, etc.

What metric could a reasonable person use to argue life today is worse than life 60 years ago?

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Some things are better, some are worse. I wasn't alive in the 50's (and I doubt most of you were either).

For example, things were built to last in the 50's & 60's. Ideas like planned obsolescence didn't exist - or were very rare. Things were much simpler in general - a 4 year degree could handle 90% of the job market and weren't as specialized as degrees today. We also had many more manufacturing capabilities than we do today and the cost of living was pretty low overall (mostly due to lower cost of living expectations). There was a more homogenous society then and certain cultural traits could be expected across the board.

That being said - we live a pretty amazing time right now. Medical advances certainly make many things that were impossible decades ago reality now. The internet allows one to gain information that may have been locked behind tuition decades ago. Working conditions in a factory are dramatically safer than they were in the 50's. There is a much wider variety of entertainment options (video games, music, etc.)

But I would agree that people, in general, are worse than they were even 30 years ago.

BUMPED2002 posted...

Well that depends on how one sees it. What changes exactly since the 1950s has made America worse. The only significant thing I can think is the Civil Rights Movement began to gain steam around the 1950s.

This idolization of the 1950's largely stems from the carefully cultivated media we have of that time, which, I would like to remind people, was only able to exist because the 1st amendment rights of Americans were suppressed during the 1950's. Wow, what a great era. Truly ideal. Pft.

Only thing that was good about the 50's were the economic policies that had been implemented in the previous decade and a half that the people benefited from.

The 1950's were dogshit, btw. Violations of constitutional rights perpetrated by DC on a regular basis, the drug epidemic really kicked off in the 50's, the Korean War, and the deliberate avoidance of the fact that the few people who did have good times in the 50's were wealthy white, straight, christian men, because everyone else was getting hounded, restricted, and assaulted both by the government and by society non-stop. The key word in that descriptor there was "wealthy," btw. Wealthy people didn't give a shit about the union busting, wars, drugs, violence, etc... why would they? And by sheer and complete coincidence, that class of people also put in place the media restrictions that helped cultivate an absurd image of 1950's America being some sort of utopia.

In the late 60's and 70's, the government began to dismantle a variety of government checks and regulations. This includes several abhorrent decisions made by the Supreme Court (in part thanks to justices that Nixon put in place, and these decisions would pave the way for other decisions, like Citizens United), and this also marked the beginning of the annihilation of support for infrastructure and other methods of investing in the public (aka, the deliberate abandonment of Keynesian Economics in favor of modern neoliberal practices, such as the absolute horseshit that is trickle down economics). In addition, shifting the economy to focus primarily on financing practices (so loans/debt-based practices, and fucking with the housing industry, among other things...)...

But it's much easier to point at black people getting more constitutional rights being the cause than actually learning about the specifics of any of this. Now, one could argue that this dismantling of the systems that made America an international powerhouse actually was caused in part by the Civil Rights Movement, but only if you want to make social conservatives look really, REALLY bad... because the only way this could be true is if you want to admit that these systems were dismantled so that minorities with newly granted legal protections could not make use of them. And that IS a strong argument, because shifting your economy to one based off of debt? Off housing? This is why the red-lining is still impacting black Americans to this day. So basically, if someone wants to point at desegregation as being the cause for the economic policy changes that happened in the 70's onward, well... that's just an admission that our government chose to destroy economic investment in the American people to avoid that investment going to black Americans.

America declined because we dismantled checks that kept political corruption from running rampant and because we shifted our economic practices to stop investing in the public. Those two things are interrelated and also link to other issues (such as the appalling city planning practices that really kicked off in... you guessed it, the 1950s), and these shifts were put in place by people in all three branches of government.

I have a killer headache and I just woke up, so this is the best response you're going to get from me, lol.

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ParanoidObsessive posted...

You're also assuming that women and ethnic/racial minorities can't have the perception that today is equally as bad

They shouldn't, because it is not. But this is ridiculously reductive either way.

After all, if civil rights issues were perfectly solved and totally superior today, BLM wouldn't need to exist, would it? And women wouldn't still be fighting over only earning 70% of what men earn, etc. Not to mention stuff like the constant talk about Roe v. Wade getting overturned, illegal immigrants being detained and having their kids taken away, etc etc. Some people might see the current situation as not being all that much better than they used to be.

They're literally fighting to keep things from getting as bad as they were in the past. This is an absurd argument.
"Wouldn't you say that having to fight to keep your abortion rights is just as bad as not having them at all?" No. That's fucking stupid.

You're also assuming that people can't see things like imminent climate collapse, global pandemics, shipping crises, and a 24-hour news cycle constantly sensationalizing and politicizing every negative story make the entire world a worse place for everyone even if they think the individual rights of women and minorities have incrementally improved in the meantime.

This is true, but you can't isolate history like this. Decisions made in the 1950s contributed to the current state of things, with climate change being an obvious example. We've known about human-influenced climate change since the 1890s (it being first written about as a result of the industrial revolution), and the phenomenon was well-known in the 40s. In other words, decision makers in the 50s should also be held in contempt for their inaction on this subject, and for every decision that was made that harmed the environment and the health of the public.

Pandemics, shipping breakdowns during crises, and constant bad news? Constant bad news? There was definitely none of that in the 50's, and certainly no sensationalist fearmongering on the news to the point where it resulted in Americans having their constitutional rights violated with extreme prejudice. No pandemics that killed millions of people either. These things definitely never happened.
:-/
This is exactly what I mean when I say that people buy into the media representations of the 1950s instead of, you know... the reality of the 1950s.

"Everything was better when black people knew their place and women stayed in the kitchen").

Actually, most of their arguments do boil down to either bigotry or ignorance or both.

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Socially? Hell no. Economically? Hell yes.

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Marcster1994 posted...

Have you heard of a thing called McCarthyism?

Because that's totally on the level of the post 9/11 surveillance state

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Muscles posted...

Because that's totally on the level of the post 9/11 surveillance state

I think you overestimate 1950s technology.

ReturnOfFa posted...

Did they ask black people?

Or ANY minority?

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Conner4REAL posted...

Given that wife beating and marital rape was legal in the 1950s I dont think a single woman voted in that poll.....

or anyone that likes hot women, or porn, or anything remotely funny....

You would be surprised. I mean is it not possible that no woman experienced that or has known anyone who had that experience?

No of course not...

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The 50s was that time where it was legal to segregate and discriminate against black people, yeah?

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darkknight109 posted...

The 50s was that time where it was legal to segregate and discriminate against black people, yeah?

Unfortunately yes it was. The only people I hear around me openly 'nostalgic' for the 1950s are those who aren't minorities and some (mostly white) women who seem to believe that it was a much 'simpler' and more 'respectful' time. I agree that we could all do with a refresher on manners but not to where it means 'putting in their place' minorities and women who are as much a part of this country and its history as the supposed 'majority'.

The internet alone is a drastic improvement.

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Has life for individuals in America gotten better? Absolutely: less racism, better technology, etc.

Is America stronger as a nation? No. Everyone perceived the US as the clear and rising world leader in the 50s, and that made people want to be a part of it and to try hard to advance it. The country had just risen out of the Depression and won WWII. Everyone there clearly knew how bad things could be and they knew the US had overcome it. The majority of people in the country (yes, white only) were proud to be Americans and felt like they were contributing to something valuable. Those people made and joined all sorts of social clubs/organizations, etc.

That sense of accomplishment and rising power is completely gone, and most everyone in America is as best "tribal" or at worst simply looking out for themselves these days. THAT is what people who are nostalgic for the America of the 50s are really talking about.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that the 50s were "good" or that there wasn't big problematic racism then or that I want to live then. I'm just explaining the feeling.

I fear that we need another Depression/WW2 if we want to force America back together again. Typically some cataclysm is needed at least once per lifetime to do so. The Revolutionary War, the Civil War (it ultimately strengthened the Union...if not the South), WWI, the Great Depression, WWII. It's been a while now. Vietnam and our other military misadventures since WWII have not been unifying events. 9/11 didn't truly have a wide enough impact. COVID hasn't been nearly bad enough. Again, I'm not saying I'm *rooting* for such an event: I'm just saying that's what it would take.

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I found an old book about politics in the 50s at a garage sale. Guess what? They thought the 1920s were better

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Sounds about white.

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party_animal07 posted...

The internet alone is a drastic improvement.

Meh. The internet was better in the 90's/early 2000's, IMO. It was more of a Wild West than the shit show it is now.

BTH_Phoenix posted...

I found an old book about politics in the 50s at a garage sale. Guess what? They thought the 1920s were better

Is that a spoiler? :) But yeah, the 20s were somewhat similar to the 50s in the big picture: the US was rising after WWI, the economy was booming, and society was opening up (more opportunities, somewhat less religion in government as prohibition had clearly failed). It makes sense that people feeling nostalgic in the 50s would have looked back on the pre-Depression 20s fondly.

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In terms of what?

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In terms of America being a rising power and people looking back to pre-Depression fun and innocence.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fTkA3dvpPM

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