Poll of the Day > Controversial Opinion #1. Universal basic income.

(+) Yeah! (+)

I legit do not approve of the idea of the U.S. government giving everyone money. It should not be the responsibility of the government to give away money to people, just because people need it. It creates a sense of entitlement and encourages irresponsible spending. If you want something, especially money, you need to earn it. Apply for jobs that you're qualified for. Learn a trade that you're interested in, like electrical, auto mechanic, welding, HVAC maintenance, etc. Go to a collection center and donate (sell) plasma and/or sperm/eggs. Create and upload content on the internet for money. Invest what money you have into stocks. There's a thousand and one ways to make money. You just need the motivation.

Giving a portion of taxes to people that have zero interest in improving themselves or fixing their own problems isn't the solution. If anyone should be receiving money, it's people that are permanently disabled and physically and/or mentally cannot work. Not someone who went to college to be a [over-hyped/overpopulated career title] and is shit out of luck because they didn't research current career market saturation or someone who just sits at home smoking weed and playing video games all day because they have zero-minimal aptitude to do anything with their life..

I legit do not approve of walls of text.

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I approve of paragraph breaks

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i think it's good. didn't read your post btw

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Sarcasthma posted...

I legit do not approve of walls of text.

Jen0125 posted...

I approve of paragraph breaks

Sheesh. You're quick.

Njord posted...

Sheesh. You're quick.

Thanks, babe.

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Go ahead and dont approve of it all you want. Its coming.

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Man's mad people feel entitled to live
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit

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UBI is a great idea and I disagree with your premise that the government is not here to help us when we need it

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https://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/973653719/california-program-giving-500-no-strings-attached-stipends-pays-off-study-finds

tl;dr A study of the period from February 2019 to February 2020, conducted by a team of independent researchers, determined that full-time employment rose among those who received the guaranteed income and that their financial, physical and emotional health improved.

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Thanks for the paragraph breaks - still not reading it.

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Kanatteru posted...

i think it's good. didn't read your post btw

It's basically a bunch of baby's first conservatism "lol just work if you want money don't be a lazy moocher" nonsense. I think you could probably make more nuanced cases against UBI but this ain't it

grimhilde00 posted...

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/973653719/california-program-giving-500-no-strings-attached-stipends-pays-off-study-finds

tl;dr A study of the period from February 2019 to February 2020, conducted by a team of independent researchers, determined that full-time employment rose among those who received the guaranteed income and that their financial, physical and emotional health improved.

Yeah but why give money to poor people who will spend it and put it back into the economy when we can give massive tax breaks to wealthy people who hoard their money? Think of the billionaires!


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Also

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2242937-universal-basic-income-seems-to-improve-employment-and-well-being/

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200624-canadas-forgotten-universal-basic-income-experiment

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CoorsLight posted...

It's basically a bunch of baby's first conservatism "lol just work if you want money don't be a lazy moocher" nonsense. I think you could probably make more nuanced cases against UBI but this ain't it

Just sell your blood for money like everyone else!

It's wild. Normal people shouldn't have to sell plasma to supplement their income to survive.

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I feel like I already talked about it a bunch the other day with that ex-social worker guy so I don't want to rewrite all that stuff, but basically I think the concept of people being lazy/addicted/moochers is part myth, part a result of not having systems that fully ensure people are able to live a stable life. I don't know how you can say that UBI is bad when we don't even have it - or universal healthcare. Those are two pretty big missing pieces of the puzzle that could make a huge difference. Almost all of these boogeyman "lazy" people are poor, don't have access to good treatment for mental health issues, don't have access to drug treatment, or some combination of the three. Maybe if we solved those problems it would solve a lot of theirs too? What a concept.

CoorsLight posted...

I feel like I already talked about it a bunch the other day with that ex-social worker guy so I don't want to rewrite all that stuff, but basically I think the concept of people being lazy/addicted/moochers is part myth, part a result of not having systems that fully ensure people are able to live a stable life. I don't know how you can say that UBI is bad when we don't even have it - or universal healthcare. Those are two pretty big missing pieces of the puzzle that could make a huge difference. Almost all of these boogeyman "lazy" people are poor, don't have access to good treatment for mental health issues, don't have access to drug treatment, or some combination of the three. Maybe if we solved those problems it would solve a lot of theirs too? What a concept.

related, canada study linked above:
> There was an 8.5% decline in hospitalisations primarily because there were fewer alcohol-related accidents and hospitalisations due to mental health issues and a reduction in visits to family physicians.

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I think Americans have a very twisted and irrational way of framing people's problems. You hear people say like "how can you even get addicted to drugs", "it's easy not to commit crimes", etc., but they almost always frame it based on their own experiences. Most of the people who have those kind of issues grew up in poverty or succumbed to undiagnosed/untreated mental illnesses at some point in their lives, they are basically raised in an entirely different world. And then we're all like "well I don't want to help them!" Then who is the help for? That's the point of help! It's not meant to be a luxury, it's supposed to go to people who need it. If a few people "mooch" then that's probably a problem with who gets it rather than the concept itself, but such a thing is overblown, and you generally would not envy people in such positions if you actually knew what their life was like. It's the same old "welfare queen" bullshit.

People aren't going to "help themselves" when they were basically implicitly taught they aren't given a chance if they have a certain standing in a society. Denying people we perceive as problematic help isn't going to make these issues better, it'll make them worse. If you are in a position where you don't need "free stuff" to make it you should consider yourself lucky, and there's no need to be mad at people who do get it.

Americans are very selfish and many only participate in introspection to their own lives.

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Of course! All you need to do is sell your body and invest it's so easy


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i think noone should have to starve in 2021 even if they have issues that prevent them from working

very basic food and shelter should not be something you have to earn when we have automation on the level that we do; let people strive for better food and shelter

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agesboy posted...

very basic food and shelter should not be something you have to earn when we have automation on the level that we do; let people strive for better food and shelter

Exactly, I don't get this idea that people are just going to be living lives of luxury right away? I mean if they all were, and if we all could sustain it, then sure that's cool too. But we're just asking for people to have their basic needs ensured. If people want fun gadgets or to be able to travel or do any of the extraneous stuff that still makes life worth living, that seems to me like enough incentive for them to not just "mooch"

It just tears me up inside that some families that identify as poors are actually waltzing around with a refrigerator or a microwave

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people won't work if they are given money
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Krazy_Kirby posted...

people won't work if they are given money

in places where they have done UBI the vast majority of people have chosen to keep working because they want more than just the basic necessities

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This novice user thinks you just make money by investing in stocks.

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Im not big on UBI, but I also disagree with you posts... But I also dont like/want most automation...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

people won't work if they are given money

I also agree with this. If people are to be believed, many people I know have said if they made enough to live without working, theyd quit in a heartbeat...
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LinkPizza posted...

If people are to be believed, many people I know have said if they made enough to live without working, theyd quit in a heartbeat...

I think more people should have that choice

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Mead posted...

I think more people should have that choice

Sure, if thats you thing. But I think thats why I think people wouldnt work if UBI was a thing...
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what an original and stupid opinion!!!

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Mead posted...

in places where they have done UBI the vast majority of people have chosen to keep working because they want more than just the basic necessities

looks like some people just like to ignore this

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People just like to say "b-b-b-but America is different, it won't work here, because

LinkPizza posted...

Sure, if thats you thing. But I think thats why I think people wouldnt work if UBI was a thing...

some people would, but youre right some would not

people that want a nicer place to live and more luxuries in life, or people that are talented and enjoy what they do

there would be less stress about it though

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Unless we're in a post-labor society, UBI is generally a stupid idea although, pragmatically speaking, we already have some forms of paying people not to work (or to work under the table while not paying taxes). The question then becomes how drastically does UBI differ from those other programs.

All that said, when the government is forcing businesses to close down or remain at partial capacity, it's obligated to provide for those businesses and workers. And it's downright criminal if the government is forcing landlords to keep non-paying tenants WHILE forcing those same landlords to pay the government despite not letting them collect their money. There should be a non-conditional exemption from taxes, etc, for landlords who are impacted by those programs, unless the government is trying to force a cascading series of bankruptcies (which they might be doing so politicians' cronies and patrons can snap land up on the cheap, because that's the swamp for you)

CoorsLight posted...

I think Americans have a very twisted and irrational way of framing people's problems. You hear people say like "how can you even get addicted to drugs", "it's easy not to commit crimes", etc., but they almost always frame it based on their own experiences. Most of the people who have those kind of issues grew up in poverty or succumbed to undiagnosed/untreated mental illnesses at some point in their lives, they are basically raised in an entirely different world.

Which is why we need comprehensive criminal justice reform, including getting rid of ridiculous things like lifetime sentencing and the death penalty. Of course, that idea is unpopular with politicians like Kamala Harris whose justice department in California used the prisons effectively for slave labor and who was less concerned with rehabilitating prisoners than her department was with depleting that labor population.

CoorsLight posted... People just like to say "b-b-b-but America is different, it won't work here, because

Among other issues, America already has a substantial non-working population. There are only so many people you can afford to not have work although, on a pragmatic level, having non-retirees, non-disabled persons sit fallow stops our nation from progressing because we're not making full use of a potential labor force while at the same time misdirecting resources. And, generally speaking, the entitlement state kinda coincides with the US's declining world standing.

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Automation and population density are only going to increase. If a solution, such as UBI, isn't in place then we're going to have a bunch of displaced, disgruntled people who are out of work with no way to make money. That's almost always a precusor to large scale riots and/or revolution. Change is going to come one way or another. It's just a matter of whether we implement proactive systems now or wait until things are on the brink of collapse for maximum casualties. My money (lol) is on the latter!

Ah yes, the old "poor people are poor because they're lazy and refuse to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps!" fallacy conservatives love so much.

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Mead posted...

in places where they have done UBI the vast majority of people have chosen to keep working because they want more than just the basic necessities

This is the shit that I don't get how people don't understand it. If you have ONLY the money necessary to survive but no money for luxuries, would you be content to just sit around all day and do literally nothing because you can't afford anything else?

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JigsawTDC posted...

It's just a matter of whether we implement proactive systems

In America? Lol!

JigsawTDC posted...

It's just a matter of whether we implement proactive systems now or wait until things are on the brink of collapse for maximum casualties. My money (lol) is on the latter!

Most likely the latter. Which I'm fine with since I'll probably be dead by then...

Zareth posted...

This is the shit that I don't get how people don't understand it. If you have ONLY the money necessary to survive but no money for luxuries, would you be content to just sit around all day and do literally nothing because you can't afford anything else?

According to a bunch of people I talk to, many apparently would be. A bunch already do stuff to earn a little cash like selling plasma, which they'd probably do for alcohol or game money. Other's don't seem to really care, and would be fine watching NetFlix, or playing the games they already had. Some will just talk to friends all day. Many people would probably be ok with it. And others would be forced to not have a job with the way automation is taking over...
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LinkPizza posted...

According to a bunch of people I talk to, many apparently would be

Hypothetically sure. Then when they realize they don't have money for the luxuries they want I'm sure they'll feel differently.

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Corporate tax breaks are UBI given only to the rich

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Ideally the IRS would find out if people are wasting their UBI money on booze and Netflix instead of food and housing costs and exclude those people from it until they clean up their act.

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Jen0125 posted...

Hypothetically sure. Then when they realize they don't have money for the luxuries they want I'm sure they'll feel differently.

It depends on what luxuries they want, though. And how bad they want it. If they already sat around and watched Netflix and youtube all day, then they'd probably be fine. Or only played certain games. Or something that didn't really cost too much money. But I also don't think they'll get just enough to live. Especially since there's still no fair way to dish out the money with all the cost of living differences and stuff... If everyone got the same, many would be getting more than enough, while others aren't getting enough...

Zareth posted...

Ideally the IRS would find out if people are wasting their UBI money on booze and Netflix instead of food and housing costs and exclude those people from it until they clean up their act.

If they care, that is... Which I don't think they would... And even then, while selling plasma isn't good enough to live off, getting booze and netflix money from them is easy...
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I'd rather take a risk and speculate on things that have numbers behind them, i.e. this is how much money we anticipate a person might need and how much we might be able to put into a UBI program, and look at successful models for a pragmatic approach, than not take the risk because of people's "gut feeling" that people will be lazy and exploit it. Plus we already are taking risks the way things are now, and it's immoral to act like poverty is something that will be solved with status quo individualism

Zeus posted...

Unless we're in a post-labor society

Would you rather have these sort of systems set in place now, or later?

Zareth posted...

Ideally the IRS would find out if people are wasting their UBI money on booze and Netflix instead of food and housing costs and exclude those people from it until they clean up their act.

Its UBI, people are free to use it on whatever they want so that it goes back into the economy. It isnt welfare.

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LinkPizza posted...

It depends on what luxuries they want, though. And how bad they want it. If they already sat around and watched Netflix and youtube all day, then they'd probably be fine. Or only played certain games. Or something that didn't really cost too much money. But I also don't think they'll get just enough to live. Especially since there's still no fair way to dish out the money with all the cost of living differences and stuff... If everyone got the same, many would be getting more than enough, while others aren't getting enough...

You think UBI would be enough to cover video games and streaming services? That's very doubtful.

We can't even get a federal minimum wage where people can afford those things easily.

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Jen0125 posted...

You think UBI would be enough to cover video games and streaming services? That's very doubtful.

We can't even get a federal minimum wage where people can afford those things easily.

Really. It most likely would be enough. Netflix is less than $20 a month. Less than $10 for certain plans. And that's it they use their own plan. Most people I know share. And you could either share with someone who has a job who can afford it, or someone on UBI where you can't split the $10 cost between the 2+ of you that use it. I don't see that as a stretch. And a game is only $60 (moving to $70) now. And they wouldn't need to get a game every month. Depending on the food they buy, they may be able to buy less or cheaper to spend a little extra on a game. Not to mention, steam can be pretty cheap, especially with their sales. And that's IF they want new games that they don't have. So, I have no doubt UBI could cover streaming services or gaming. It very easily could...

And AFAIK, UBI would probably be more than federal minimum wage... If UBI is as great as people think it is, and people would be able to live off of it, then I think it would be more, right? Or is UBI going to be as pointless as minimum wage is now?
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LinkPizza posted...

If UBI is as great as people think it is, and people would be able to live off of it, then I think it would be more, right? Or is UBI going to be as pointless as minimum wage is now?

You're talking about the US here. Of course UBI would be the absolute bare minimum to survive.

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