Board 8 > Cyberpunk 2077 Review Zone

(+) Yeah! (+)

I've read a lot more than what Wang said and it's bad.

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Wanglicious posted...

doesn't seem like she's particularly familiar with cyberpunk or WRPGs so you're getting a complete outsider's perspective which is dumb.

1) What are you basing this on?

2) Outsider perspectives for game reviews are actually fine. Do superfans actually NEED pre-release reviews?

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Wanglicious posted...

i mean she complains about bleakness in a cyberpunk world. pretty safe bet this ain't her genre!

She also mentions that she searched desperately to find in-game justification for the bleakness and couldnt find any. That its an oppressive environment just for the sake of setting.
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why even have multiple publications if everyones just going to assign the review to the person most likely to jerk a game off
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Jakyl25 posted...

She also mentions that she searched desperately to find in-game justification for the bleakness and couldnt find any. That its an oppressive environment just for the sake of setting.

Yeah that's... Cyberpunk.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

GGers assement of a game critic is off, big surprise.

https://twitter.com/CyberpunkGame/status/1336389181988343812?s=19

Well that's good at least.

this reads like they didn't even realize it was a thing which is kind of sad, it really took until someone with review access who suffers from epileptic conditions to find out

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Waluigi1 posted...

I've read a lot more than what Wang said and it's bad.

why do you think the reviews editor for GameSpot, with ~100 reviews credited to her across 8 years at the two largest gaming sites, who frequently reviews RPGs and FPSers, is unqualified to review a FPS RPG

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

1) What are you basing this on?

2) Outsider perspectives for game reviews are actually fine. Do superfans actually NEED pre-release reviews?

what she said in the video, her attitudes of game mechanics, her multiple opinions on the settings. it's pretty clear this isn't her game style.

and if you're gonna be a major gaming site, an outsider's perspective is explicitly not what it's for. you wanna be a certain niche, go ahead and be that. but if you're trying to be one of the major gaming sites like literally gamespot, no, you want someone who's very familiar with the game style because they can break things down significantly better.

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I think an outsider's perspective is totally fine for something like this. If I didn't know if I'd like cyberpunk or WRPG genre of games and I checked out the review, it would probably be helpful.

That said, there's still a place for reviews of people who are fans of the genre and those are very helpful too.

All of this is at least better than when people review something like racing games and it's clear they hate racing games. At that point someone else should make the review.

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Jakyl25 posted...

She also mentions that she searched desperately to find in-game justification for the bleakness and couldnt find any. That its an oppressive environment just for the sake of setting.

There's also an anecdote about a particularly striking sidequest that isn't bleak.

When playing a 40-100 hour game, I don't think its that unreasonable to want moments of NOT bleakness, and Wang's nitpicking her "knowledge of cyberpunk and wrpgs" based on that?

Weak shit.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

GGers assement of a game critic is off, big surprise.

https://twitter.com/CyberpunkGame/status/1336389181988343812?s=19

Well that's good at least.

Of course it is
They address stuff that really matters

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

That said, there's still a place for reviews of people who are fans of the genre and those are very helpful too.

Absolutely
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I'd guess that 90% of the people playing this game won't be familiar with the cyberpunk genre.
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Jakyl25 posted...

She also mentions that she searched desperately to find in-game justification for the bleakness and couldnt find any. That its an oppressive environment just for the sake of setting.

right.
that's cyberpunk! it's a dystopian future where a lot of the world has taken a step back but a lot of advancements have been made in science and technology (and magic, if it applies). or as she put it, being "stuck in the 80s." now if she doesn't like this sorta stuff that's fine but then this is a game she's just not gonna like right off the bat.

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Wanglicious posted...

right.
that's cyberpunk! it's a dystopian future where a lot of the world has taken a step back but a lot of advancements have been made in science and technology (and magic, if it applies).

Yeah but usually for some interesting narrative point and not just cool window dressing

As she says in her review its clearly not just a role playing sandbox because her character in the narrative was not indicative of how she played through the side quests (good old ludonarrative dissonance strikes again), so there must be some other compelling reason to choose a cyberpunk setting right?
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Wanglicious posted...

sake of setting.

right.
that's cyberpunk! it's a dystopian future where a lot of the world has taken a step back but a lot of advancements have been made in science and technology (and magic, if it applies). or as she put it, being "stuck in the 80s." now if she doesn't like this sorta stuff that's fine but then this is a game she's just not gonna like right off the bat.

The joy in cyberpunk is fighting back against inhuman corporatism and overcoming your bleak surroundings to be more human in a world leaving humanity behind.

If you want to wallow in bleak hopelessness for 80 hours that's your prerogative, but don't say you know cyberpunk if you think that's all there is.

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actually i invented cyberpunk and you're all wrong

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

If I didn't know if I'd like cyberpunk or WRPG genre of games and I checked out the review, it would probably be helpful.

i'd find it more helpful from someone familiar with cyberpunk because that person can then better explain to you what type of game this is and break down the genre's nuance in a better, more accurate way. shortcomings would be easier to notice, the way it interacts with the game would be known better, you'd have a more complete package of what this game is as opposed to a view that isn't aware of it and will miss a lot as a result.

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Mac Arrowny posted...

I'd guess that 90% of the people playing this game won't be familiar with the cyberpunk genre.

I'd agree with this.

The average person isn't going to really know what cyberpunk is, so getting an "outsider" perspective is going to hit on things that will mean more to them than some fan that is going to write a review assuming everybody is gonna like it.

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Wanglicious posted...

i'd find it more helpful from someone familiar with cyberpunk because that person can then better explain to you what type of game this is and break down the genre's nuance in a better, more accurate way. shortcomings would be easier to notice, the way it interacts with the game would be known better, you'd have a more complete package of what this game is as opposed to a view that isn't aware of it and will miss a lot as a result.

I'd disagree with this since it's never what happens. Instead, people that are fans of something/very familiar with something tend to gloss over details because what may stand out to others doesn't stand out to them.

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Mac Arrowny posted...

I'd guess that 90% of the people playing this game won't be familiar with the cyberpunk genre.

I kind of can't wait for the larger response to the game for this exact reason. This is already easily the most mainstream work of cyberpunk since Blade Runner, and it's coming at a time when people are especially vulnerable to a lot of themes the genre has been tackling for nearly 40 years now.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

The joy in cyberpunk is fighting back against inhuman corporatism and overcoming your bleak surroundings to be more human in a world leaving humanity behind.

If you want to wallow in bleak hopelessness for 80 hours that's your prerogative, but don't say you know cyberpunk if you think that's all there is.

It kind of reminds me of TLoU2 actually

People had an issue with the fact that the game was just cruel almost the entire way, and whether or not you liked the game hinged a lot on whether the narrative reasons for pushing through a game that intentionally makes you feel like shit was worth it or not
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Jakyl25 posted...

Yeah but usually for some interesting narrative point and not just cool window dressing

As she says in her review its clearly not just a role playing sandbox because her character in the narrative was not indicative of how she played through the side quests (good old ludonarrative dissonance strikes again), so there must be some other compelling reason to choose a cyberpunk setting right?

does seem the game has a narrative split between following this character's adventure and making your own, it's not a true sandbox. ...but the same could be said of other WRPGs, including and most notably Witcher 3.

and it's entirely possible it really is just cool window dressing. but that would be best pointed out by someone familiar with the genre because they'd be able to accurately pinpoint exactly where and how it's just cool window dressing and nothing else, same way you gets games that are just X genre/game in space.

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If youre using cyberpunk as cool window dressing, thats a colossal LOL
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Wanglicious posted...

i'd find it more helpful from someone familiar with cyberpunk because that person can then better explain to you what type of game this is and break down the genre's nuance in a better, more accurate way. shortcomings would be easier to notice, the way it interacts with the game would be known better, you'd have a more complete package of what this game is as opposed to a view that isn't aware of it and will miss a lot as a result.

I'd find it more helpful because it's someone with the same perspective as me towards the game that could guide me towards whether or not I'd like it based on their impressions.

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Bane_Of_Despair posted...

this reads like they didn't even realize it was a thing which is kind of sad, it really took until someone with review access who suffers from epileptic conditions to find out

It was already in the eula so they had to have known

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Like in The Witcher, the choices you make as Geralt regarding how he views the world are reflected in the game. I cant speak for Witcher 3 but its definitely true in the first game. The game forces you, in a very natural way, to consider how you define your role as a monster slayer, and the story reflects that despite still advancing a singular narrative.

Sounds like this may not always be the case in Cyberpunk
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Colegreen_c12 posted...

It was already in the eula so they had to have known

Not necessarily. That may just be a boilerplate liability thing every game throws in.
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I love my dick

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Jakyl25 posted...

It kind of reminds me of TLoU2 actually

People had an issue with the fact that the game was just cruel almost the entire way, and whether or not you liked the game hinged a lot on whether the narrative reasons for pushing through a game that intentionally makes you feel like shit was worth it or not

Would you be interested to know that Kallie also reviewed TLoU2 and pointed out the same things?

https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/the-last-of-us-part-2-spoilerfree-review/1900-6417483/

Also I think my biggest problem with what Wang is saying is that it ITSELF is such a superficial critique of the review. "(I assume) she doesn't like cyberpunk, so she can't explain it well".

I don't know about most people, but I find reviews from people with completely different tastes than mind wildly informative and interesting to read. If a person says "This gameplay mechanic does this, and I hate it" or "The setting is *blank* and I love it" and I disagree, it's really not hard to recontextualize with my own tastes.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I'd find it more helpful because it's someone with the same perspective as me towards the game that could guide me towards whether or not I'd like it based on their impressions.

but it's not the same perspective as you, it's just the lack of any perspective. that's the only point in common - the starting point of not being too familiar if at all. everything after that is going to be different so the guidance is going to be lacking since the knowledge is lacking. if you're looking for guidance, you'd want it to be from someone aware of what it is as they'd be able to tell you what it's not and everything in between, as opposed to just kinda winging it because there's much more variability there on something that's inherently incomplete.

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iiicon posted...

why do you think the reviews editor for GameSpot, with ~100 reviews credited to her across 8 years at the two largest gaming sites, who frequently reviews RPGs and FPSers, is unqualified to review a FPS RPG

Yikes.

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Wanglicious posted...

but it's not the same perspective as you, it's just the lack of any perspective. that's the only point in common - the starting point of not being too familiar if at all. everything after that is going to be different so the guidance is going to be lacking since the knowledge is lacking. if you're looking for guidance, you'd want it to be from someone aware of what it is as they'd be able to tell you what it's not and everything in between, as opposed to just kinda winging it because there's much more variability there on something that's inherently incomplete.

So what are the reviewers who are familiar with the cyberpunk genre saying about its execution of cyberpunk themes/atmosphere/etc.? I'd love to hear whatever other reviewers are saying rather than just focusing on the one GameSpot review.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I don't know about most people, but I find reviews from people with completely different tastes than mind wildly informative and interesting to read.

and you can have fun with that. they can write that too. but if you're gonna be literally gamespot, not really the direction to go in; IGN and gamespot don't bill themselves as niche places like that, they're more gamer-centric.

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Wanglicious posted...

but it's not the same perspective as you, it's just the lack of any perspective. that's the only point in common - the starting point of not being too familiar if at all. everything after that is going to be different so the guidance is going to be lacking since the knowledge is lacking. if you're looking for guidance, you'd want it to be from someone aware of what it is as they'd be able to tell you what it's not and everything in between, as opposed to just kinda winging it because there's much more variability there on something that's inherently incomplete.

This is stretching bro. I don't need some cyberpunk nerd to tell me all about cyberpunk. I need someone who isn't familiar with cyberpunk to tell me what they enjoyed and didn't enjoy about it.

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As someone who isn't particularly familiar with and doesn't particularly care about the cyberpunk genre, the perspective of someone who also doesn't really care one way or the other matters to me more than someone who does

Wanglicious posted...

and you can have fun with that. they can write that too. but if you're gonna be literally gamespot, not really the direction to go in; IGN and gamespot don't bill themselves as niche places like that, they're more gamer-centric.

lol now she's not a gamer? You're acting like a GG stereotype at this point, Wang.

Also by outright saying "it's a lack of any perspective" you are betraying that you don't actually have a real point. The idea that this person who has reviewed dozens of RPGs AND FPS has "no perspective" is just patently nonsense.

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Mac Arrowny posted...

So what are the reviewers who are familiar with the cyberpunk genre saying about its execution of cyberpunk themes/atmosphere/etc.? I'd love to hear whatever other reviewers are saying rather than just focusing on the one GameSpot review.

don't know yet because i haven't checked. do know review copies were relatively scarce and that review copies aren't worth much anyway as they're going to be outdated immediately. review copies have DRM that impacts performance and may affect other elements, retail ones won't. review copies are pre-day 1 patch which should fix a lot of bugs and i do agree with the sentiment that a buggy broken game can kill immersion like nothing else can. as a result, the only reviews i'm really interested start from after that patch because they won't be as outdated in 6 months. also gives more time for actual in depth content over "hey marathon this 40+ hour game for me."

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

lol now she's not a gamer? You're acting like a GG stereotype at this point, Wang.

Also by outright saying "it's a lack of any perspective" you are betraying that you don't actually have a real point. The idea that this person who has reviewed dozens of RPGs AND FPS has "no perspective" is just patently nonsense.

She's a female game reviewer that doesn't agree with him and he's a GamerGater.

There you go.

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On the subject itself, I think the "bleakness" is the perfect example. A cyberpunk fan probably isn't going to point that out in a review, because to them it's just a matter of fact. As Wang is arguing, it's just "It is what cyberpunk is."

But a good majority of people playing the game aren't going to know that, or know to expect it, and thus it being pointed out by somebody not too familiar with the genre is a good thing.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

This is stretching bro. I don't need some cyberpunk nerd to tell me all about cyberpunk. I need someone who isn't familiar with cyberpunk to tell me what they enjoyed and didn't enjoy about it.

doesn't need to be a cyberpunk nerd, just someone familiar with it. somebody who isn't familiar will have different points of view from someone else who isn't familiar because it's just a lack of knowledge and they can go in a completely different area.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

lol now she's not a gamer?

didn't say that and you know that. you know exactly what i mean when i'm saying IGN and gamespot are more gamer-centric from what you're asking for here so quit the snark there.

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StealThisSheen posted...

On the subject itself, I think the "bleakness" is the perfect example. A cyberpunk fan probably isn't going to point that out in a review, because to them it's just a matter of fact. As Wang is arguing, it's just "It is what cyberpunk is."

But a good majority of people playing the game aren't going to know that, or know to expect it, and thus it being pointed out by somebody not too familiar with the genre is a good thing.

huh.
how does this logic even work.
of course a cyberpunk fan will point it out in a review, that's a fundamental part of the setting, how wouldn't they? they're more likely to get way more in depth with it because that'd be part of the immersion.

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If only we had a way to take reviews from people who enjoy RPGs, people who don't, people who know what cyberpunk is and people who don't, and create some sort of aggregate score based on it.

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TheRock1525 posted...

If only we had a way to take reviews from people who enjoy RPGs, people who don't, people who know what cyberpunk is and people who don't, and create some sort of aggregate score based on it.

yeah but then the women reviewers would be ruining my perfect aggregate score which is completely unacceptable.

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davidponte posted...

yeah but then the women reviewers would be ruining my perfect aggregate score which is completely unacceptable.

Wait, we're not letting women be a part of video games again, are we?

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metacritic is a different cancer of the industry, though for entirely different reasons. <_<;
useful though, yeah. as is opencritic but i'm not sure how much that one exists at this point. i do like the steam breakdown of recent vs. overall score the most these days, it helps a lot on figuring things out for games that'll change drastically over the course of their lifetime and it isn't looking at games on a 4 point scale pretending to be 10.

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My system:
60s in a series I like? Probably interested but will read individual reviews.
60s in a genre I like? Likely pass but will read individual reviews.
60s in a genre I don't like? Hard pass.

70s in a series I like? Will likely purchase, but will check reviews to see if there's anything I'm missing.
70s in a genre I like? 50/50 on purchasing, usually more about time available, length, likelihood of price drop soon after launch.
70s in a genre I don't like? Likely pass unless it has, like, Ezio or Lightning in it or something.

80s in a series I like? Definite purchase.
80s in a genre I like? Purchase likely although will probably check out a review or two.
80s in a genre I don't like? Might purchase but will check multiple reviews.

90s in a series I like? Getting that preorder bonus special edition.
90s in a genre I like? Definitely won't say no to it.
90s in a genre I don't like? Will have to purchase to maintain e-cred.

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Wanglicious posted...

metacritic is a different cancer of the industry

How is it a cancer? It's literally just opinions. People have been giving opinions on entertainment media for centuries, if not millenias.

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Wanglicious posted...

huh.
how does this logic even work.
of course a cyberpunk fan will point it out in a review, that's a fundamental part of the setting, how wouldn't they? they're more likely to get way more in depth with it because that'd be part of the immersion.

Because to them, as you tell it, it'd be like pointing out that the sky is blue or that it sometimes rains. It's a non-issue to them.

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