Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 317: Jacob Blake

(+) Yeah! (+)

Corrik7 posted...

The article does not say that. What are you referring to?

It was in the Washington Post at the least but they seem to have removed it since. They referred to videos posted from the scene and how the Kenosha PD was refusing to comment.

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Corrik7 posted...

Most here are for the use of the military and national guard to stop the rioting from what I have heard. Many here also think that the democrats support the riots due to a couple of reasons.

Not debating the second part, but I dont see why more Trump would stop the riots if they keep happening now when hes doing all he can
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Corrik7 posted...

pointed a gun at police officers

Source?

Maybe you should tell the real story.

With frame-by-frame analysis you can say that MAYBE Tamir Rice was POSSIBLY reaching for his waistband to pull out what MIGHT have been a gun.

But in reality he was shot without sufficient time to ascertain any of that. The cops pulled up much faster and closer to him than they needed to, they LIED about saying that they told him to drop the weapon from their car as they were approaching (in reality the window was still rolled up) and even if they HAD ACTUALLY told him to drop his weapon, how would he have done so without first reaching for it?

Please do not point to Tamir Rice of all things as a situation where the cops did anything correctly.

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Corrik7 posted...

pointed a gun at police officers

Lol no
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Source?

Maybe you should tell the real story.

With frame-by-frame analysis you can say that MAYBE Tamir Rice was POSSIBLY reaching for his waistband to pull out what MIGHT have been a gun.

But in reality he was shot without sufficient time to ascertain any of that. The cops pulled up much faster and closer to him than they needed to, they LIED about saying that they told him to drop the weapon from their car as they were approaching (in reality the window was still rolled up) and even if they HAD ACTUALLY told him to drop his weapon, how would he have done so without first reaching for it?

Please do not point to Tamir Rice of all things as a situation where the cops did anything correctly.

I was incorrect then in what I thought happened then.

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xp1337 posted...

It was in the Washington Post at the least but they seem to have removed it since. They referred to videos posted from the scene and how the Kenosha PD was refusing to comment.

The article says they didn't detain him when he was trying to surrender because they were rushing to the scene to help the hurt and didn't realize what he was doing in their rush I believe.

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Corrik7 posted...

The article says they didn't detain him when he was trying to surrender because they were rushing to the scene to help the hurt and didn't realize what he was doing in their rush I believe.

And I don't know enough about the specifics as far as the officers interaction with rittenhouse and their relative proximity to his victims.

But the phrase "trying to surrender" keeps coming up. If he was actually in the process of turning himself in, how difficult would it have been to leave someone to cuff him and read him his rights while the victims were being medically assisted?

No two situations are going to be exactly the same, but it's hard not to contrast this level of not-seeming-too-concerned-about-arresting-white-person-with-gun versus the i-feared-for-my-life-when-black-man-adjusts-belt mentality that feels like a get out of jail free card.

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Forceful_Dragon posted...

And I don't know enough about the specifics as far as the officers interaction with rittenhouse and their relative proximity to his victims.

But the phrase "trying to surrender" keeps coming up. If he was actually in the process of turning himself in, how difficult would it have been to leave someone to cuff him and read him his rights while the victims were being medically assisted?

No two situations are going to be exactly the same, but it's hard not to contrast this level of not-seeming-too-concerned-about-arresting-white-person-with-gun versus the i-feared-for-my-life-when-black-man-adjusts-belt mentality that feels like a get out of jail free card.

I believe the article is saying they didn't realize he was trying to surrender because they were rushing to help the victims?

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Forceful_Dragon posted...

No two situations are going to be exactly the same, but it's hard not to contrast this level of not-seeming-too-concerned-about-arresting-white-person-with-gun versus the i-feared-for-my-life-when-black-man-adjusts-belt mentality that feels like a get out of jail free card.

Vegas guy shot for grabbing his pants because his hand went to his waistline when swat was called in due to a possible mass shooter.

Guy in his house was shot for dropping his hands to his belt line when the swat was called for a violent person in the swatting.

Etc etc.

You are trying to make a race issue out of it.

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Corrik7 posted...

Vegas guy shot for grabbing his pants because his hand went to his waistline when swat was called in due to a possible mass shooter.

Guy in his house was shot for dropping his hands to his belt line when the swat was called for a violent person in the swatting.

Etc etc.

You are trying to make a race issue out of it.

Regardless of race, maybe cops shouldn't be shooting people at the first sign of a "threat" when their arms move below their waist.

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Inviso posted...

Regardless of race, maybe cops shouldn't be shooting people at the first sign of a "threat" when their arms move below their waist.

I think if there is a disposition to reasonably believe the person is armed or dangerous that they should act accordingly to what is reasonable so they don't go home in a body bag to their families. It seems kind of messed up we should be letting what is reported to be or is criminals in many cases get the drop on a police officer and potentially kill them.

For every time it is not an accurate assessment even if a reasonable one, there is probably just as many times it saves the cops lives also by doing so.

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No, we're trying to make a "cops should not be so quick to fire their guns" issue out of it.
or "cops should have much less discretion about when they are allowed to fire their guns" issue.
or "cops should not all HAVE guns as a default" issue(see other countries where only specific SWAT units carry firearms).

And the fact that cops have so much discretion on how to react means that their own innate biases are free to consistently affect the way similar situations play out.

Because cops aren't trained to ALWAYS shoot or ALWAYS hold their fire. They are trained to decide in the moment what to do. And that amount of agency gives them the ability to claim that they feared for their lives. And it sure seems like cops are much more often to fear for their life when the person (who MIGHT have a gun) is black.

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Forceful_Dragon posted...

No, we're trying to make a "cops should not be so quick to fire their guns" issue out of it.
or "cops should have much less discretion about when they are allowed to fire their guns" issue.
or "cops should not all HAVE guns as a default" issue(see other countries where only specific SWAT units carry firearms).

And the fact that cops have so much discretion on how to react means that their own innate biases are free to consistently affect the way similar situations play out.

Because cops aren't trained to ALWAYS shoot or ALWAYS hold their fire. They are trained to decide in the moment what to do. And that amount of agency gives them the ability to claim that they feared for their lives. And it sure seems like cops are much more often to fear for their life when the person (who MIGHT have a gun) is black.

"No two situations are going to be exactly the same, but it's hard not to contrast this level of not-seeming-too-concerned-about-arresting-white-person-with-gun versus the i-feared-for-my-life-when-black-man-adjusts-belt mentality that feels like a get out of jail free card."

Sorry, but I am going to call bullshit. It is a nice attempt to change your statement when called out upon it, but no, you made it a race thing.

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It's both, Corrik.

Cops have too much unchecked power and authority in general. AND that power and authority, though executed towards people of ALL races, disproportionately affects black people.

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I can attest from Mafia that Corrik genuinely isn't good at having multi layered discussions <_<

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Jesus Christ.

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I'm just gonna say it: if the options are A. a cop is killed by being too careful in the use of his or her firearm, and B. an innocent civilian is killed by a cop being too aggressive in the use of his or her firearm...I'd rather have a system where A is the standard. At least in that scenario, the police officers know what they're getting into when they apply for the job. They're being PAID--good money, mind you--to put their lives on the line. Meanwhile, in scenario B...innocent people are getting killed and receiving none of the perks that come with being a police officer. Tamir Rice, regardless of whether he was waving a fake gun around or if he just happened to have one tucked away, did not go out to the park one day with the knowledge that "by behaving in this fashion, I could be shot and killed today."

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I can attest from Mafia that Corrik genuinely isn't good at having multi layered discussions <_<

Ad hominem. You are trying to attack the person now. He absolutely made it into a race issue, and it is always where you lose republicans in your arguments.

The problem is you all sip the kool-aid from the media. You hear about almost every single African American shot by the police if it can even be the slightest bit gray. It's a media bonanza every time they can find one to show.

You simply just don't hear about it when it regards a white person.

https://tinyurl.com/y4ad3vf4

Did you ever hear about it? Did you know it happened? This would be all over CNN front page and the media being shouted from rooftops. Do you know why you never did? There would be riots if this person were African American.

Notice how the article doesn't even denote race? Race is never worth mentioning unless it is African American because that means get the pitchforks and give the news the ratings bonanza.

You think it is different with races when you simply aren't being told it by the media when it isn't that narrative.

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Actually I am not really partaking in this conversation I was just defending your genuineness from the inevitable barrage of 'Corrik isn't good faith.'

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Inviso, the one big problem with your statement is that then there will be no incentive for anybody to be a cop. If you are putting your life at risk and have no mechanism to protect yourself from violent criminals, who in their right mind would actually take the job? The other fault in your argument is that 99.5% of the time, we aren't talking about an "innocent civilian", but rather a violent criminal threatening police or actual innocent bystanders.

The protests need to be stopped before they get even further out of hand, and insane gun fetishests like that Rittenhouse kid, or the guy that he shot that was chasing him down with a pistol need to be thrown in jail.

Want to fix all of these problems, it's a simple as the following 2 steps:

• Implement sane gun controls like every other first world nation has. Cops are constantly on edge because every person they interact with could have an AR-15 stashed in their glovebox. Notice how other countries don't have this problem on nearly the same scale as the US
• Eliminate police unions. Labour unions exist for one reason only, to protect their members from any consequences. Most industries that just means that some useless asshat can't be fired for being lazy or ineffective, but with police, you get situations where they suffer no consequences for their messups. George Floyd is a bad example, since all of the forensic and body cam evidence shows that those cops didn't really do anything wrong, but the cops involved in the Breona Taylor case need to be prosecuted for being criminally incompetent. Get rid of police unions and now you can enforce things like external investigative bodies and mandatory body cams

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Corrik7 posted...

Ad hominem. You are trying to attack the person now. He absolutely made it into a race issue, and it is always where you lose republicans in your arguments.

The problem is you all sip the kool-aid from the media. You hear about almost every single African American shot by the police if it can even be the slightest bit gray. It's a media bonanza every time they can find one to show.

You simply just don't hear about it when it regards a white person.

https://tinyurl.com/y4ad3vf4

Did you ever hear about it? Did you know it happened? This would be all over CNN front page and the media being shouted from rooftops. Do you know why you never did? There would be riots if this person were African American.

Notice how the article doesn't even denote race? Race is never worth mentioning unless it is African American because that means get the pitchforks and give the news the ratings bonanza.

You think it is different with races when you simply aren't being told it by the media when it isn't that narrative.

I don't really need the media to pick up any number of history books btw

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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

Inviso, the one big problem with your statement is that then there will be no incentive for anybody to be a cop. If you are putting your life at risk and have no mechanism to protect yourself from violent criminals, who in their right mind would actually take the job? The other fault in your argument is that 99.5% of the time, we aren't talking about an "innocent civilian", but rather a violent criminal threatening police or actual innocent bystanders.

Inviso wants to defund the police, bud. Plays perfectly into the angle wanted.

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Fuck of Turtle.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

I don't really need the media to pick up any number of history books btw

Well, if you are acting like today is yesteryear then you have shown me why you are not clearly assessing the situation. This is like Kamikaze jumping to OMG THEY LYNCHED AFRICAN AMERICANS OMG. When the shit hasn't happened in years upon years if not decades.

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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

The protests need to be stopped before they get even further out of hand, and insane gun fetishests like that Rittenhouse kid, or the guy that he shot that was chasing him down with a pistol need to be thrown in jail.

Also, this is incorrect. The protests do not need to stop. And, they shouldn't stop because people might be criminals and gun people down.

Rioting should stop because it is criminal and wrong and makes people not care for your movement or message.

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Well no of course today isn't yesteryear. Thankfully things have progressed some. But to act like they are now equal seems a bit silly given all available facts.

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Corrik7 posted...

Inviso wants to defund the police, bud. Plays perfectly into the angle wanted.

Then I hope she realizes that the inevitable spike in crime will disproportionately impact families living in lower income areas. I've long held the suspicion that the people clamouring for "defund/abolish the police" are upper middle class suburbanites that have never stepped foot in a poor neighbourhood, and have never been a victim of a crime. As someone who has been mugged before and has had shit stolen from my backyard, the police are necessary for society to function, and anyone saying otherwise is painfully ignorant

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Corrik7 posted...

Rioting should stop because it is criminal and wrong and makes people not care for your movement or message.

The riots had stopped mostly and guess what stopped getting coverage on TV.

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red13n posted...

The riots had stopped mostly and guess what stopped getting coverage on TV.

I am sure the pro-life people get a lot more coverage when they blow up abortion clinics too. Get real. You don't commit violence in order to get on the media and think it is acceptable. That's a despicable comment.

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red13n posted...

The riots had stopped mostly and guess what stopped getting coverage on TV.

I've been seeing plenty of rioting and looting, pretty much constantly for the last 3 months. The left wing media stopped reporting on it because the peaceful protests have been violent and that doesn't play into the "peaceful narrative". The right wing media stopped reporting on it because they are focused on making Trump look good, and him not being able to restore order is a bad look going into an election.

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If someone I loved was killed I would probably riot too if I thought there was no justice.


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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

I've been seeing plenty of rioting and looting, pretty much constantly for the last 3 months. The left wing media stopped reporting on it because the peaceful protests have been violent and that doesn't play into the "peaceful narrative". The right wing media stopped reporting on it because they are focused on making Trump look good, and him not being able to restore order is a bad look going into an election.

Hi, I see you are talking about CNN and not localized networks. Please realize the average person watches network television. Local news is more powerful than the networks you are clearly referencing.

As soon as protests got testy in Los Angeles yesterday, IE, police literally trapping a large group of protesters in a tunnel and charging, they made the local news.

The peaceful protests that had gone on for basically the entire day received maybe 30 seconds of coverage. People getting shoved and tackled in a tunnel, live coverage of the event.

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Corrik7 posted...

I am sure the pro-life people get a lot more coverage when they blow up abortion clinics too. Get real. You don't commit violence in order to get on the media and think it is acceptable. That's a despicable comment.

Again, I preface this by saying I don't necessarily condone rioting, but there also has to be an understanding that "peaceful protest" to an extent accomplishes nothing.

If you don't have a way to hit people in the pocket book, you typically don't have any power.

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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

Inviso, the one big problem with your statement is that then there will be no incentive for anybody to be a cop. If you are putting your life at risk and have no mechanism to protect yourself from violent criminals, who in their right mind would actually take the job?

The incentive is payment, just like it is for jobs more dangerous than police officer (like logger or taxi driver).

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Police Unions are only a problem because white supremacy has invaded our police forces. Remove the white supremacy and nutjobs, and you'd have a lot less of a problem.

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red13n posted...

The riots had stopped mostly and guess what stopped getting coverage on TV.

Dude. You just need to go on Twitter and every night you'll get new footage of riots going on in whatever city still has it happening. Seattle and Portland are still ongoing but the others died down. There are literal streams of people every night attending and recording them.

Just the other night in Seattle there were people who were cementing the police department doors with police officers inside and they tried to set it on fire with them trapped inside. Arrests were made and everything.

The media isn't reporting it because nothing significant happens at them anymore than what's happened for months.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

The media isn't reporting it because nothing significant happens at them anymore than what's happened for months.

This is literally my point.

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Dancedreamer posted...

Police Unions are only a problem because white supremacy has invaded our police forces. Remove the white supremacy and nutjobs, and you'd have a lot less of a problem.

It has nothing to do with supremacy, and has everything to do with a lack of consequences. This applies to all facets of life, that's why you put a kid in time out when they are being bad. If you try to raise a kid and never punish them, they are going to act like a narcissistic shit, just like some of these cops are.

People are making it a race issue when it isn't

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Dancedreamer posted...

Police Unions are only a problem because white supremacy has invaded our police forces. Remove the white supremacy and nutjobs, and you'd have a lot less of a problem.

So this might blow your mind.

But

Police unions won't allow them to remove white supremacists from their job.

Which is the problem.

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Turtle, is is SO insane to expect accountability from the police? That if they draw their firearm, shoot, and murder an unarmed person, they receive punishment beyond just "suspension with pay"? I mean, MAYBE if there was a mandatory minimum prison sentence, or SOME form of ACTUAL punishment for a cop shooting an unarmed civilian, we would have people pausing before pulling the trigger on any person whose hands dip to the waistline.

That being said, I completely agree with your opinion that we need to enact stronger gun laws, because police would have less excuse to claim fear for their lives if we, as a country, had fewer guns available. And I similarly agree with your opinion that police unions need to be reigned in as well, because right now they're impeding any sort of reform, specifically because maintaining the status quo keeps officers from facing consequences for excessive force.

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@DoomTheGyarados
Chris you watch the Some More News video about the post office that went up yesterday?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8jzK684xxY

I'm watching it now and it makes some pretty interesting points about the current state of the USPS.

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red13n posted...

This is literally my point.

You just said they "stopped mostly". Which they haven't. It's been ongoing.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

So this might blow your mind.

But

Police unions won't allow them to remove white supremacists from their job.

Look, I know you don't get how Unions work, you've made this clear. Unions are a give and take with management. To remove someone, it requires management doing their due diligence on the discipline process. The problem with police unions, is not that they are a union, but that management is literally the police themselves.

We have no system of outside accountability. You need to fix that.

The problem is not that they are a union, its that they are literally policing themselves. They are the both the union and management side.

You need to strive for a system of outside accountability, not this dumb anti union bullshit you keep raving about. Fix the system, dont get suckered into some right wing anti-union rant.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

You just said they "stopped mostly". Which they haven't. It's been ongoing.

That is literally part of what I said. You quoted it.

"stop mostly" means still ongoing but not at nearly the rate they had been prior. They were mostly isolated to portland and a couple other areas. That doesn't get near the level of news coverage than if they were still going on basically everywhere.

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red13n posted...

Again, I preface this by saying I don't necessarily condone rioting, but there also has to be an understanding that "peaceful protest" to an extent accomplishes nothing.

If you don't have a way to hit people in the pocket book, you typically don't have any power.

Sounds like your issues is with the media. The media only reports drastic things. Maybe the media needs to change. Maybe the media shouldn't only report things in a way to create a narrative and try to cause racial divide.

It doesn't mean you should go rioting and destroying shit because you want the media to acknowledge you.

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More and more I'm less afraid of Corvid-19, and more afraid of the people who live in this country.

Still staying home as much as I can mind you.

But when I'm out driving to the store, the fear of some jackass giving me the virus because they're "too good" to wear masks... is secondary to being killed by local police or some white nationalist who's emboldened by the "president".

What the fuck

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I'm going to reiterate, you remove the unionization from police right now you change nothing.

you know who is in charge of the police? The police.

You know who is still in charge of prosecuting the police? Prosecutors that rely on the police for 99.9% of the other parts of their jobs.

Its a systematic problem, not a union problem.

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You and I have very different ideas of stopped mostly when people are still going out and destroying property on the nightly.

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Corrik7 posted...

Sounds like your issues is with the media. The media only reports drastic things. Maybe the media needs to change. Maybe the media shouldn't only report things in a way to create a narrative and try to cause racial divide.

It doesn't mean you should go rioting and destroying shit because you want the media to acknowledge you.

The media is after ratings. They don't give a shit about a narrative.

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red13n posted...

This is literally my point.

So, if the media stops reporting on the riots because it is the same old shit. They should do what? Blow up buildings? Crash planes into targets? You are saying that if the media doesn't give them coverage they need to keep one upping the carnage to get media.

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