Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 317: Jacob Blake

(+) Yeah! (+)

red13n posted...

The media is after ratings. They don't give a shit about a narrative.

The narrative is what gives them ratings. Racial divide is hot. Just like if you watched nightcrawler, the local media would stray away from same old shit violence in violent neighborhoods and sought out the minority attacking the white person in a good neighborhood stories. Now that gets us our ratings! And, that is creating a narrative. You also handwaved the whole post to divert away.

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I'm saying you need to find a way to get media attention. I am not advocating any specific acts of violence.

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Corrik7 posted...

The narrative is what gives them ratings.

lol.

Sure it is.

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Hell you don't even have to go to news cycles to show "narrative gives ratings". Just look at basically any serialized TV show. Ratings will typically peak at the premiere and finale.

People don't want narrative, they just want to see a bunch of shit happen. If they wanted narrative they'd tune in for all the episodes in the middle.

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For what it's worth I'm not actually convinced that police have a racism problem in particular.

I am convinced that police have a police brutality problem, and I'm convinced that black people see the worst of it because economic inequality, institutional racism, and implicit bias are constants across all facets of American society.
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It can be both.

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Inviso posted...

Turtle, is is SO insane to expect accountability from the police? That if they draw their firearm, shoot, and murder an unarmed person, they receive punishment beyond just "suspension with pay"? I mean, MAYBE if there was a mandatory minimum prison sentence, or SOME form of ACTUAL punishment for a cop shooting an unarmed civilian, we would have people pausing before pulling the trigger on any person whose hands dip to the waistline.

That being said, I completely agree with your opinion that we need to enact stronger gun laws, because police would have less excuse to claim fear for their lives if we, as a country, had fewer guns available. And I similarly agree with your opinion that police unions need to be reigned in as well, because right now they're impeding any sort of reform, specifically because maintaining the status quo keeps officers from facing consequences for excessive force.

You won't have accountability as long as there are unions in the picture. Unions are the enemy of accountability. That being said, there still need to be protections in place for when that level of force is required and justified, and there needs to be an understanding from the public that it is required in certain situations.

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Dark Young Link posted...

It can be both.

I mean sure but I have yet to be convinced that it's both.
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You are incorrect and playing up narratives in the media has always been a thing to garner ratings. But, that doesn't support your position and you think that the news only reports things certain ways because that is how news is or something so okay.

It's almost like we didn't just have the sandman debacle happen.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

But

Police unions won't allow them to remove white supremacists from their job.

Which is the problem.

This might blow your mind.

But Police Unions won't allow them to remove white supremacists because they are white supremacists.

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pyresword posted...

For what it's worth I'm not actually convinced that police have a racism problem in particular.

I am convinced that police have a police brutality problem, and I'm convinced that black people see the worst of it because economic inequality, institutional racism, and implicit bias are constants across all facets of American society.

This is pretty much correct. I'd throw out some of the things but African Americans are more likely to have encounters with cops due to likelier low economic status. Thus, these things seem to happen at a greater than expected frequency based on that disproportion. Also, every single one no matter how gray is televised while you MAY only see the most heinous examples from the Caucasian American. You almost never see it for the Hispanic community or Asian community either for whatever it's worth. (While I believe the Hispanic community is disproportionately higher for their percentage of the population also for similar economic reasons).

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Corrik7 posted...

You are incorrect and playing up narratives in the media has always been a thing to garner ratings.

sure they will play them up.

But that doesn't mean they generate ratings themselves. Without anything behind them people get bored. They wont draw more interest than say, whatever dumb thing Trump said for the day.

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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

You won't have accountability as long as there are unions in the picture. Unions are the enemy of accountability. That being said, there still need to be protections in place for when that level of force is required and justified, and there needs to be an understanding from the public that it is required in certain situations.

CERTAIN scenarios. It should be in EXTREME scenarios, not the default setting. As has been pointed out, police had no problem exercising restraint when armed men stormed the Michigan State House to protest quarantine orders, and they had no problem exercising restraint when an armed man, visibly brandishing an assault rifle, walked towards them in the immediate aftermath have having murdered two people. This is also where the racial inequality angle comes into play. While police have demonstrated excessive force and brutality towards white victims as well, it seems like the bar for what results in "fearing for their life" is far lower when it comes to black people.

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To say racism isn't a part of it seems incredibly naive.

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Poor Garrett Hoose. Nobody cared about how he died here. I guess he wasn't Black enough for some of you to care, eh?

That's the issue. If you stop making it a race issue and an all encompassing message, and the support for the movement would so much higher.

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HashtagSEP posted...

To say racism isn't a part of it seems incredibly naive.

I'd argue it's worse.

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HashtagSEP posted...

To say racism isn't a part of it seems incredibly naive.

There is not any more or less racism in the police force than likely any other walk of life. Racism does exist. It is at an all time low in our country. But, it does exist.

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I'm sure it's just a brutality problem, not a racial thing. I mean it's not like cops gave water to the militia members in Kenosha. And when Rittenhouse murdered two people, they took him down with the same force they took down Jacob Blake, shooting at him 7 times.

And in Salem, when they teargassed protesters, it's not like they told counter protesters to get inside so they wouldn't get tear gassed.

Definitely not a racism problem there.

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Pretending racism doesn't exist is extremely counterproductive to actually dealing with racism.

Corrik7 posted...

Poor Garrett Hoose. Nobody cared about how he died here. I guess he wasn't Black enough for some of you to care, eh?

That's the issue. If you stop making it a race issue and an all encompassing message, and the support for the movement would so much higher.

Generally, when a person brings up a story for the sole purpose of saying "Why don't you care about THIS tangentially related story? HUH?"...it comes across as being brought up in extremely bad faith, particularly since you rarely believe the police are wrong in their murderous ways anyway.

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Inviso posted...

Generally, when a person brings up a story for the sole purpose of saying "Why don't you care about THIS tangentially related story? HUH?"...it comes across as being brought up in extremely bad faith, particularly since you rarely believe the police are wrong in their murderous ways anyway.

I don't believe they were wrong there. You should though.

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Dancedreamer posted...

This might blow your mind.

But Police Unions won't allow them to remove white supremacists because they are white supremacists.

Police unions won't allow them to remove white supremacists because unions serve to protect their members from any accountability whatsoever. It's not even a problem with the police, if you had a guy working in a factory that had a swastika tattoo, his union would prevent you from firing him.

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red13n posted...

Look, I know you don't get how Unions work, you've made this clear. Unions are a give and take with management. To remove someone, it requires management doing their due diligence on the discipline process. The problem with police unions, is not that they are a union, but that management is literally the police themselves.

We have no system of outside accountability. You need to fix that.

The problem is not that they are a union, its that they are literally policing themselves. They are the both the union and management side.

You need to strive for a system of outside accountability, not this dumb anti union bullshit you keep raving about. Fix the system, dont get suckered into some right wing anti-union rant.

How do you think management gets appointed? The unions use their power politically to push for certain people getting appointed that will work in their favor. Then the union lobbies for police to have policies where they can't be punished. They ensure that even if due diligence is done, the punishment is barely anything at all.

Police unions set the parameters for accountability and transparency through collective bargaining and negotiating contracts, meaning they decide how punishments are made, and setting forth a process to make it as difficult as possible for them to be punished.

Police unions endorse and lobby for candidates, including prosecutors.

Police unions use that leverage to lobby for policies that benefit the police.

Like this fucking arrogance from you is amazing considering how you just don't get the unions will never, ever be fighting for anything other than police not having accountability.

Police unions are not like other unions. They don't fight for all workers like labor unions. They fight for the police and only the police and the police actively oppose other unions.

Why do you think 2,600 grievances were filed in the last 8 years in Minneapolis and only 12 resulted in discipline, and the harshest punishment was a 40 hour suspension?

Because the unions set it up to make it that hard to punish people, and even when a punishment made, the most any officer could be punished was a 40 hour suspension.

So again, I state, fuck police unions. Nothing ever changes so long as they have as much power as they have.

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Dancedreamer posted...

I'm sure it's just a brutality problem, not a racial thing. I mean it's not like cops gave water to the militia members in Kenosha. And when Rittenhouse murdered two people, they took him down with the same force they took down Jacob Blake, shooting at him 7 times.

And in Salem, when they teargassed protesters, it's not like they told counter protesters to get inside so they wouldn't get tear gassed.

Definitely not a racism problem there.

This may be hard for you to grasp.

But fuck it lets try it.

If the races of protestors and militia were reversed. The cops would have given water to them still. They are giving water to the people defending them.

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Dancedreamer posted...

I'm sure it's just a brutality problem, not a racial thing. I mean it's not like cops gave water to the militia members in Kenosha. And when Rittenhouse murdered two people, they took him down with the same force they took down Jacob Blake, shooting at him 7 times.

And in Salem, when they teargassed protesters, it's not like they told counter protesters to get inside so they wouldn't get tear gassed.

Definitely not a racism problem there.

It's almost like tear gas is a tool to de-escalate a violent mob, regardless of what their beef is

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Police unions endorse and lobby for candidates, including prosecutors.

Police unions use that leverage to lobby for policies that benefit the police.

You are literally describing every union again.

And again these all fit my point.

There is no established pull to the unions push. It's not a union issue, it's an issue of having 0 accountability built into the system.

The problems with police unions are endemic to any unionized industry. The only difference is teacher unions will prevent the firing of grossly incompetent teachers, and as a worst case, will shuffle teachers around that get too "friendly" with their teenage students (but don't quite cross the line). When police are grossly incompetent, you have them doing no-knock warrants on the wrong house, and shooting innocent bystanders.

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https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1299067450139586566

ACLU calling on the Kenosha Police Chief & Country Sheriff to resign. The sheriff David Beth for buddying up to the vigilante and letting him leave the scene, as well as his uncovered racist comments in 2018 about warehousing shoplifters for life to prevent them from breeding ("getting ten other women pregnant"). Police Chief Daniel Miskinis for his comments victim blaming for the vigilante murders.

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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

It's almost like tear gas is a tool to de-escalate a violent mob

He said protestors, not "violent mob".

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Cool job ignoring the rest of my post to continue being ignorant, red, in which I clearly explain how they use their power to ensure no accountability for cops and how they set any level of prosecution and accountability for police and use their power to lobby for officials and prosecutors etc. that also feel very similarly.

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Leafeon13N posted...

it's an issue of having 0 accountability built into the system.

Which is in major part because of the union...

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Corrik7 posted...

Clickbait sensationalist.

Reminder. Tamir Rice with the safety feature to identify a toy gun (orange tip) removed pointed a gun at police officers and was shot because the police thought the gun which was made to be realistic and hence had such a tip was real.

Tell the real story.

First of all, he was 12 years old.

Second of all, the person who called the cops literally told the dispatcher I think its a toy.

Thirdly, while there is a requirement for toy guns to be sold with orange tips, there are exceptions AND its not illegal to remove them, as long as it not then presented as a real gun for another purpose.

My personal source is shooting airsoft guns recreationally, where literally nobody keeps the orange tips AND some airsoft guns dont even come with them.

Heres a source I googled up because I know you wont take my word for it:

http://airsoftlounge.com/index.php/2018/12/03/does-an-airsoft-gun-have-to-have-an-orange-tip/

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All protests of a certain size will devolve to a violent mob. This is well established fact, and I think where the disconnect between the "It was a peaceful protest!" and the actual video evidence comes into play. If you look at how pretty much any riot happens, there are a handful of agitators in the crowd that get people worked up. Those people then do something like engage the police, or light a building on fire, and before you know it, mob mentality takes place and the whole thing devolves into what we're seeing every day.

If you actually read up on it, the doctrine is quite clear on how to handle protests, which is why cops will stand back and only engage to remove agitators from the situation until the mob devolves to that point, then they deploy tear gas and rubber bullets to get the crowd to disperse

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Leafeon13N posted...

You are literally describing every union again.

And again these all fit my point.

There is no established pull to the unions push. It's not a union issue, it's an issue of having 0 accountability built into the system.

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/what-to-know-police-unions-labor-movement/amp

I recommend reading why Police Unions ARE different than a traditional labor union.

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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

All protests of a certain size will devolve to a violent mob. This is well established fact, and I think where the disconnect between the "It was a peaceful protest!" and the actual video evidence comes into play. If you look at how pretty much any riot happens, there are a handful of agitators in the crowd that get people worked up. Those people then do something like engage the police, or light a building on fire, and before you know it, mob mentality takes place and the whole thing devolves into what we're seeing every day.

If you actually read up on it, the doctrine is quite clear on how to handle protests, which is why cops will stand back and only engage to remove agitators from the situation until the mob devolves to that point, then they deploy tear gas and rubber bullets to get the crowd to disperse

The issue is you had two simultaneous protests, counting the counter-protest, but instead of tear gassing both, police warned the counter protest ahead of time so they could avoid it, and only gassed one side.

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I'm glad people are finally starting to realize the the most productive actionable change is to eliminate police unions. I've been saying this since the riots started, and was usually met with responses that ranged from "BUT ALL COPS ARE BASTARDS WE SHOULD JUST GET RID OF COPS" to "HOW CAN YOU SAY A UNION CAN BE A FORCE FOR BAD EVERYTHING SHOULD BE UNIONIZED YOU FASCIST!"

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Red is red and he's going to continue to not educate himself and arrogantly act like he's right and anyone who opposes his view is a dummy.

I could not have explained it any clearer to him and he still acts like police unions are really just good people who really would love for there to be accountability for cops, but gosh, they just happen to keep heavily pushing and doing everything in their power to lobby for people who want to work with them to ensure investigations are impossible and accountability is as minor as possible for police officers.

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Corrik7 posted...

I don't believe they were wrong there. You should though.

I would just like to know why you, someone who does not believe the police are ever in the wrong when they murder innocent civilians, think that the shooting of unarmed civilians is something I should be equally uncaring about as the following:

An incident in which police arrived on a scene and found a man visibly wielding a weapon.
They instructed him to put down the firearm.
The man did not put down the firearm.
Police shot the man, fearing for their lives, given that he was wielding a firearm and refused to put it down.

Could that situation POSSIBLY have gone better? Yeah, maybe. But there's a difference between shooting someone visibly holding a weapon, who has refused to put down said weapon...and shooting a man multiple times for reaching towards his waistband for a weapon that was not there.

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BlAcK TuRtLe posted...

It's almost like tear gas is a tool to de-escalate a violent mob, regardless of what their beef is

It's almost like tear gas is outlawed by the Geneva convention. Nevermind that it's never used on the Nazis in charlottesville or anywhere else. So spare me the bullshit.

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HashtagSEP posted...

The issue is you had two simultaneous protests, counting the counter-protest, but instead of tear gassing both, police warned the counter protest ahead of time so they could avoid it, and only gassed one side.

This shit right here.


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Dancedreamer posted...

It's almost like tear gas is outlawed by the Geneva convention. Nevermind that it's never used on the Nazis in charlottesville or anywhere else. So spare me the bullshit.

To be fair, the Nazis never got in the way of Trump's photo op. /s

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Inviso posted...

I would just like to know why you, someone who does not believe the police are ever in the wrong when they murder innocent civilians, think that the shooting of unarmed civilians is something I should be equally uncaring about as the following:

An incident in which police arrived on a scene and found a man visibly wielding a weapon.
They instructed him to put down the firearm.
The man did not put down the firearm.
Police shot the man, fearing for their lives, given that he was wielding a firearm and refused to put it down.

Could that situation POSSIBLY have gone better? Yeah, maybe. But there's a difference between shooting someone visibly holding a weapon, who has refused to put down said weapon...and shooting a man multiple times for reaching towards his waistband for a weapon that was not there.

Riots happened in Milwaukee, Charlotte, and probably a bunch of others for the exact same reasons. In Milwaukee the person was shooting at the cop itself.

Fuck Minnesota just last night rioted because a guy shot himself after killing someone else.

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Inviso posted...

I would just like to know why you, someone who does not believe the police are ever in the wrong when they murder innocent civilians, think that the shooting of unarmed civilians is something I should be equally uncaring about as the following:

An incident in which police arrived on a scene and found a man visibly wielding a weapon.
They instructed him to put down the firearm.
The man did not put down the firearm.
Police shot the man, fearing for their lives, given that he was wielding a firearm and refused to put it down.

Could that situation POSSIBLY have gone better? Yeah, maybe. But there's a difference between shooting someone visibly holding a weapon, who has refused to put down said weapon...and shooting a man multiple times for reaching towards his waistband for a weapon that was not there.

This goes back to my earlier point of the insanity of gun fetishism in the US and how that directly contributes to the current climate of unrest, and the trigger happy nature of your cops

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I recommend reading why Police Unions ARE different than a traditional labor union.

Again, I am for complete retooling of this. Just a starter of "abolish police unions" is a no go for me.

Leafeon13N posted...

Again, I am for complete retooling of this. Just a starter of "abolish police unions" is a no go for me.

Oh then please explain how to retool it then.

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Toronto had protests because a woman went crazy with a knife and fell of a balcony and died. The woman's mother claimed the police "threw" her off the balcony, despite the fact that she wasn't even there. There are still people complaining about it despite the 2 month long investigation basically proving without a shadow of doubt that the police could not have done anything else in the situation.

People are keen to fly off the handle and start a riot, likely for Instagram clout, without even having any of the facts

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Corrik7 posted...

Riots happened in Milwaukee, Charlotte, and probably a bunch of others for the exact same reasons. In Milwaukee the person was shooting at the cop itself.

Fuck Minnesota just last night rioted because a guy shot himself after killing someone else.

I feel like you're going off on a tangent because your original tangent didn't make as much sense as you thought it did.

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

Oh then please explain how to retool it then.

Well, we need to reform our entire system of policing. You would likely need to completely renogiate union contracts around the systemic changes that we need to make. This is way beyond my own level of expertise.

Leafeon13N posted...

Well, we need to reform our entire system of policing. You would likely need to completely renogiate union contracts around the systemic changes that we need to make. This is way beyond my own level of expertise.

lol

"Hey you DUMMIES who just want to get rid of the police union. They aren't the real problem. All you need to do is just retool them a bit."

"How should they be retooled?"

"I dunno."

Come on red.

Listen, I'll level with you even a little bit here. I'll toss you a bone and ignore the complete corruption of unions doing whatever they can in their power to continually ensure they don't lobby for appointed officials that don't just fall in line with no accountability for officers. And I'll also ignore that they won't still try to find a way to do their best to make investigations and punishments as impossible as they possibly can.

On a state-wide level, every state council would need to place a ban on police unions putting anything in their contracts about investigating and punishing police officers for serious change. Which obviously, can be revoked the second they get people in power who say "Nah, let's get rid of this."

But to retool the police union itself? It can't happen. Because any attempt to retool the police union means they aren't working in the best interests of the police anymore.

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On the subject of "you don't care about this issue when it's a white victim"...no. That's false. I literally posted this article several topics back, and I got ignored aside from a brief comment about Arizona police being trash.

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/ryan-whitakers-family-speaks-out-after-phoenix-pd-releases-footage-of-deadly-officer-involved-shooting

I watched the video. It's fucked up. In this instance, the police go to a guy's house on suspicion of domestic violence based on a call from the neighbor doing the equivalent of that Karen trying to get a black birdwatcher in trouble (ie. shot) with the police. There are two cops. When the victim opens the door, one cop is directly in front of him, the other is directly behind him (the two officers took positions at both sides of the door and one was behind when the victim turned to face the first officer).

Now, it LOOKS like the victim has a gun. Which is fair enough, because as much as I think there needs to be greater gun regulation in this country, we still have the second amendment and he owned a legal firearm that he brought with him to address an unknown, late-night knock at his front door. But upon noticing the possible gun, the police yell at him to drop it. Keep in mind that the victim is pinned between two officers, both armed. He extends his arms, doing everything he can to reduce his threat level, lowers himself towards the ground...and he is then shot to death multiple times by the officers.

That's how they responded to that incident. The fear they had for their lives took precedence over Ryan Whitaker's life. This wasn't even one of those "he committed a misdemeanor so his life was forfeit" situations. This was a man wielding a legal firearm for home defense, who the police only called upon because of a false report of domestic violence. And now he's dead. Because those police were trained to shoot to kill.

For fuck's sake, the second officer was behind the man. He could've disarmed him easily. But instead, Ryan Whitaker is dead. Because that's how policing works in this country. And we don't hold them accountable for the immense power and authority our tax dollars have bestowed upon them.

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