Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 307: Tulsa Staggered

(+) Yeah! (+)

turbopuns3 posted...

I'm not here to blame anyone for anything but yes if you show up late it's certainly not anyone else's fault.

You keep saying this while ignoring the point that they didn't show up late. They showed up on time, but due to the congestion from there being only one polling station, were unable to get into the building in time through no fault of their own.

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Except they didn't show up late.

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In line means in the door, it's not like, an opinion or something where if they like you it's ok.

Were you inside the door at 6pm?

No?

Ok. You were late.

Does your boss consider you not late if there's a traffic jam?

turbopuns3 posted...

In line means in the door, it's not like, an opinion or something where if they like you it's ok.

Were you inside the door at 6pm?

No?

Ok. You were late.

Does your boss consider you not late if there's a traffic jam?

If my boss caused the traffic jam, then probably!

People that are used to being able to leave work at 5 and get to their local polling station with 25-30 minutes to spare should be able to still expect to get to a different polling station with 25-30 minutes to spare and be able to vote. They should be able to expect that whatever decisions the state has made, whether they have 5 polling stations or 5,000, have been properly set up to account for the obvious post work rush of voters. If people show up 25-30 minutes before it closes and it takes them 30 minutes to park because the state decided to eliminate 95% of its polling stations, tunnel everybody into one, and make literally no efforts to make sure that doesn't happen, it's not the voter's fault.

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StealThisSheen posted...

If people show up 25-30 minutes before it closes and it takes them 30 minutes to park because the state decided to eliminate 95% of its polling stations, tunnel everybody into one, and make literally no efforts to make sure that doesn't happen, it's not the voter's fault.

To be clear anyone in this exact situation got to vote since they extended to 6:30.

turbopuns3 posted...

In line means in the door, it's not like, an opinion or something where if they like you it's ok.

Were you inside the door at 6pm?

No?

Ok. You were late.

Does your boss consider you not late if there's a traffic jam?

what's analogous to showing up late for work due to a traffic jam here is... showing up late to the vote due to a traffic jam

what's analogous to being considered late because the line is too long is to show up at work on-time, get to the door on time, and to find it locked for reasons outside of your control. you see, in this situation, they're there... on time. and despite that, they're considered late, because they didn't get inside on time... because they couldn't, seeing as there's a line. like... bruh

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I'm just saying the law or rule or whatever the hell it is, is a very black and white matter. Like it is written down in no uncertain terms. So the people there did their job and locked the doors at 6pm. Then people raised these points and they opened the doors back up for a while. Then the people asked the extension to last 3 hours and the judge deemed that wasn't warranted after viewing the situation personally.

turbopuns3 posted...

To be clear anyone in this exact situation got to vote since they extended to 6:30.

They didn't make that decision until 6:22, meaning anybody that left because they were turned away and locked out for 22 minutes got screwed over.

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StealThisSheen posted...

They didn't make that decision until 6:22, meaning anybody that left because they were turned away and locked out for 22 minutes got screwed over

Well that is a shame for them.

turbopuns3 posted...

Like it is written down in no uncertain terms.

You're right

https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/law/statutes/statute.aspx?id=27563

It is

"The polls shall be opened on the day of a primary, special election, or regular election at 6 a.m., prevailing time, and shall remain open until each voter who is waiting in line at the polls at 6 p.m., prevailing time, has voted. At 6 p.m., prevailing time, if voters are waiting at the polls to vote, the precinct election sheriff shall announce that a voter wishing to vote must immediately get in line. When all voters waiting at the polls at that time are in line, the precinct election sheriff shall then determine which voter is the last in line, and that voter shall be the last voter permitted to vote. The precinct election sheriff shall wait in line with the last voter who shall be permitted to vote until that voter has voted and shall inform a voter who subsequently arrives at the polls that no one shall be permitted to vote after the last voter in line at 6 p.m., prevailing time. After the last voter waiting in line at 6 p.m., prevailing time, has voted, the polls shall then be closed."

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So then I was right.

You just want to blame the voters for literally every problem with this situation.

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And don't try to argue that people queued up in a row behind other people extending from the registration table or whatever aren't in line because they aren't inside the building. Please.

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Do you have the part where it defines what in line means?

Puns, just stop. Voter suppression is a democrat/left wing talking point and many here are going to harp it no matter the details endlessly because that's a talking point on their side. They are already calling you a troll and shit for not agreeing with them. This is how it starts, buddy!

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Like, I'd agree with you if this was an unrelated traffic jam further down the road.

It wasn't.

It was a traffic jam literally at the Expo Center/in the parking lot.

A traffic jam they should have expected and accounted for when they decided to take it down to one polling station.

A traffic jam they effectively caused.

A problem they directly caused and then proceeded to decide drag their heels on doing anything about, including keeping the doors locked for 22 minutes despite an injunction being filed.

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Guys you realize after they locked the door people congregated right? Because they couldn't get in? I imagine it wasn't like there was a mob of 200 people there and one little old lady working the polls fought them all off with one hand while locking the door with the other. Lol. Probably just people slowly filing into the building with some space in between them.

And after they locked it up, people were like uhh hey what the fuck traffic jam and they were like oh ok fair we'll grant 30 extra minutes. And a judge deemed that was appropriate to clear the congestion that was reasonably stopping people from getting in.

Again. It's a shame some people had that situation. And my only real point here is that there's no need for A-list celebrities to be shouting systemic racism over...an unfortunate situation where a couple hundred people maybe(?) didn't get to vote despite good faith efforts being made by the state. That's really all I'm saying.

Corrik7 posted...

Puns, just stop. Voter suppression is a democrat/left wing talking point and many here are going to harp it no matter the details endlessly because that's a talking point on their side. They are already calling you a troll and shit for not agreeing with them. This is how it starts, buddy!

It's not even about voter suppression at this point. It's about the common decency of letting people vote when the only reason they can't get in the building in time is because of something you caused.

Do you, personally, think it's fair to just tell the voters "You were late" when they were literally in line in the parking lot trying to get in for 30 minutes to an hour, which wouldn't have happened had polling stations been kept open?

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turbopuns3 posted...

Guys you realize after they locked the door people congregated right? Because they couldn't get in? I imagine it wasn't like there was mob of 200 people there and one little old lady working the polls fought them all off with one hand while locking the door with the other. Lol. Probably just people slowly filing into the building with some space in between them.

There was a line of cars in the parking lot/leading up to it of people trying to park and get in to vote, with people having arrived up to an hour before close not getting a space in time. This was not an unrelated traffic jam. This was a traffic jam caused by funneling too many people into one lone polling station. This was a traffic jam they caused. These people would have been inside with plenty of time to spare were it not for this. One of the candidates filed an injunction asking it to be kept open later because of this. This line is not being made up.

How is it the voters' fault?

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I haven't taken too close a look at the situation in Kentucky but given the early voting and absentee measures that they had I'm slightly less willing to go straight to voter suppression only because of the pandemic.

I absolutely understand the knee-jerk reaction here because the GOP has a long, long history of closing polling places - often in areas that disproportionately serve minorities and tend to vote more for Democrats - and the intended goal is clear as day.

But in this particular case there's the factor of needing poll workers to actually run the polling places and given that those who typically sign up for that are in higher-risk categories I can see how there might be a shortage of poll workers leading to an issue where there's just not enough workers to operate the usual number of polling places. Now one polling place serving 600,000 voters strains all credibility on that front because surely they have volunteers enough to help with that.

Closing down polling places is not something you ever want to encourage and they should have been operating as many of them as they possibly could. I don't know if we had that or not, my gut reaction to the % closed is "no, surely they could have kept more open" but I don't know that for sure and I'm not sure if that's something we can even get data on.

But I also don't think the fact that early and absentee voting was offered excuses the fact that the closing of most polling places leading to increased congestion at what few remain open so anyone who was left out because of that is just SOL. That's some bullshit. (That "in line" is defined as "in the door" is also bullshit but that's another discussion and I'd have to see the fuller context on how that came to be the definition but let's just say I'm giving it some serious side-eye.)

tl;dr: This doesn't seem like Georgia or Wisconsin level fuckery but I also don't think it's right to go, "It was all cool, guys."

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Corrik7 posted...

Puns, just stop. Voter suppression is a democrat/left wing talking point and many here are going to harp it no matter the details endlessly because that's a talking point on their side. They are already calling you a troll and shit for not agreeing with them. This is how it starts, buddy!

I'm past the point of getting hot over it after talking through it with some friends here who have different perspectives. Just needed to tie up my loose ends. I started everything off on the wrong foot because I was tilted over a tweet. I set a bad tone for the discussion.

I'm fully willing to accept that it was just general incompetence and not actual malice/suppression.

What I have a problem with is that people arriving from 5:00-5:30 couldn't get a parking space and get inside the doors in time due to congestion caused by this decision to limit it to one polling place for 600,000 people, and puns is acting like we're dumb for not agreeing with his stance of "Sucks to be them, the system works!"

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StealThisSheen posted...

It's not even about voter suppression at this point. It's about the common decency of letting people vote when the only reason they can't get in the building in time is because of something you caused.

Do you, personally, think it's fair to just tell the voters "You were late" when they were literally in line in the parking lot trying to get in for 30 minutes to an hour, which wouldn't have happened had polling stations been kept open?

The rules are the rules. If the rules stated it that way, then yes. If you have 10 days to vote and tried to rush at the end of the deadline, I would assume you have to figure there could be traffic.

I mean, I am all for making midterms and election day holidays to give everyone all day to vote or at least the ability to leave work to vote. I am not gonna say they should bend rules though in scenarios.

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turbopuns3 posted...

Do you have the part where it defines what in line means?

buddy... i was trying to give you a second chance.

No, they don't define "line". They probably assumed nobody would be enough of a disingenuous clown to argue that a single line (like, a literal line, as in, things in a row) of people magically stops being a line when it transitions from being indoors to outdoors. Obviously this was a poor assumption on their part

turbopuns3 posted...

Guys you realize after they locked the door people congregated right? Because they couldn't get in? I imagine it wasn't like there was a mob of 200 people there and one little old lady working the polls fought them all off with one hand while locking the door with the other. Lol. Probably just people slowly filing into the building with some space in between them.

Are you trying to say that they closed properly and only didn't let the people who arrived at 6 in? Because that's an actual argument you could make, depending on evidence, and one you should've started out with instead of the absolute nonsense you've been intermittently saying over the last two pages


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I assume it was not visibly obvious to election officials working inside the building that there was a continuous line of cars or people flooding the parking lot. Like they were inside, away from that. They go "oh it's 6, time to lock" and they walk over to the door and there's maybe a few people walking in and a few more 10 feet behind them. Etc. Not like a gigantic throng of people. They probably didn't even think twice. Stand there a minute and let the last nearby people hussle in and then lock up. Then suddenly 15 minutes later they're like whoa there's a lot more people than just your regular stragglers what is going on. Oh ok we need to open up again for a little bit.

Like this is all speculation but it just seems like the obvious way this would naturally play out.

There probably was not an election official looking at a huge line of cars going "sucks to suck, nerds!" but who knows.

NFUN posted...

Are you trying to say that they closed properly and only didn't let the people who arrived at 6 in? Because that's an actual argument you could make, depending on evidence, and one you should've started out with instead of the absolute nonsense you've been intermittently saying over the last two pages

Well, it'd be hard to make that argument, since there were videos of dozens of people as early as 5 and 10 minutes after 6, suggesting they just up and locked the doors at 6 regardless of people outside of them. It'd be very hard to argue those people all just happened to arrive late together at the exact same time that quickly and get parking spots and walk up to the doors late together.

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turbopuns3 posted...

I assume it was not visibly obvious to election officials working inside the building that there was a continuous line of cars or people flooding the parking lot. Like they were inside, away from that. They go "oh it's 6, time to lock" and they walk over to the door and there's maybe a few people walking in and a few more 10 feet behind them. Etc. Not like a gigantic throng of people. They probably didn't even think twice. Stand there a minute and let the last nearby people hussle in and then lock up. Then suddenly 15 minutes later they're like whoa there's a lot more people than just your regular stragglers what is going on. Oh ok we need to open up again for a little bit.

Like this is all speculation but it just seems like the obvious way this would naturally play out.

There probably was not an election official looking at a huge line of cars going "sucks to suck, nerds!" but who knows.

They knew about it because Booker asked for the injunction prior to closing.

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turbopuns3 posted...

Like this is all speculation but it just seems like the obvious way this would naturally play out.

In what dimension with a crowd like that do you think they had a point in time where it looked clear?

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In other words what I mean is. No I am not claiming knowledge of the literal definition of in line. I am assuming based on common sense that people consider in the building as the qualifier because the door is what acts as the barrier and the door separates the inside from the outside thus in line means inside.

Now if there really was a solid ass queue of people going out the door with it propped open and they just came and shut it on people please link me the video.

turbopuns3 posted...

There probably was not an election official looking at a huge line of cars going "sucks to suck, nerds!" but who knows.

Most people know.

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turbopuns3 posted...

Now if there really was a solid ass queue of people going out the door with it propped open and they just came and shut it on people please link me the video.

https://twitter.com/lancnick/status/1275554457615548416

This video was posted at 20 minutes after and pictures like it were being posted as soon as minutes after.

Do you really think it's likely that many people all just happened to show up after 6, park, and congregate in that short of a time?

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Do I think "dozens" of people could walk up to the door in 15 minutes?

Yeah, I do!

Wait.

Do you think I'm saying only people who parked after 6 were locked out?

turbopuns3 posted...

I assume it was not visibly obvious to election officials working inside the building that there was a continuous line of cars or people flooding the parking lot. Like they were inside, away from that. They go "oh it's 6, time to lock" and they walk over to the door and there's maybe a few people walking in and a few more 10 feet behind them. Etc. Not like a gigantic throng of people. They probably didn't even think twice. Stand there a minute and let the last nearby people hussle in and then lock up. Then suddenly 15 minutes later they're like whoa there's a lot more people than just your regular stragglers what is going on. Oh ok we need to open up again for a little bit.

Like this is all speculation but it just seems like the obvious way this would naturally play out.

There probably was not an election official looking at a huge line of cars going "sucks to suck, nerds!" but who knows.

election officials are literally required to inspect the line and determine what the end is I just posted the text. in fact, one should go out and literally stand in line to mark the end. of course, if, as you say, there wasn't a continuous line, they would've and should've closed. However <see other posts>


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turbopuns3 posted...

Wait.

Do you think I'm saying only people who parked after 6 were locked out?

We're saying there was a consistent line/stream of people at that time and they cut the line off inside the building at 6 instead of going to the end of the line outside. In the rules, they're supposed to go to the end of the line, not just arbitrarily cut it off.

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Yeah, I poked around the broader section 118 (of which the excerpt NFUN posted is a part) and I see no definition stated for "line." There's a definition section to 118 but it does not define "line" nor do any other sections that might be tangentially related in my mind.

I even took a sidetrip to the Kentucky Constitution in case it was somehow defined there and predictably it was not. Although I did see that it set elections to end at 7 originally though provided the legislature the authority to change the hours if they wished.

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I think you all are struggling to imagine in your head what a line of people walking from a parking lot into a building would actually look like.

100 people do not park and exit their vehicles in unison. They are staggered just like a line of cars after a stop sign or something.

I am saying there was probably not a literal line of people standing still queuing for their turn which began inside and extended outside, continuously. People were actively walking toward the building still.

If you are the election official, there at the sign in desk or whatever there was probably some people in line but not like a huge queue. You see it's time so you go over to the door. Of course some people are still walking toward the door. But there's not a giant group of 200 people standing right outside.

As the person whose job it is to enforce the line ending, you have to cut it off somewhere and at some point. 6pm was the point and the door was the where.

turbopuns3 posted...

In other words what I mean is. No I am not claiming knowledge of the literal definition of in line. I am assuming based on common sense that people consider in the building as the qualifier because the door is what acts as the barrier and the door separates the inside from the outside thus in line means inside.

No, that isn't common sense. It's not even sense. "In line" means "in a fucking line", not "in a line inside a building". The "in" refers to the line, not the building

The letter of the law doesn't explicitly say what a line is. Fine, turn to the spirit, which is that "If you get there on time, you get to vote". Not "Congratulations! You're one of the lucky 50/20/5 (depending on the size of the building, a factor outside of everybody's control) first people in line, which means you're a winner that gets to vote!". What does it fucking matter if they're inside? It's completely irrelevant

Youre taking something extremely straightforward and making it arbitrary. This logic is lunacy. Please, drop it before you make a bigger ass out of yourself

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And to some extent they acknowledged the mistake with the reopen. So good on them. And I think I'm out of things to say. Finally lol

NFUN posted...

Please, drop it before you make a bigger ass out of yourself

Oh shit gamefaqs user NFUN thinks I am an ass :(

"People got unfairly locked out and only got in later because of a judge" is a problem that shouldn't be handwaved, not a sign that "The system works, good on them!"

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StealThisSheen posted...

"People got unfairly locked out and only got in later because of a judge" is a problem that shouldn't be handwaved, not a sign that "The system works, good on them!"

Well I've stated my thesis which was the state made great efforts to enable every registered voter to be able to vote, lousiville election organizers made a mistake and made an effort to correct it, and that none of this warrants cries of systemic racism or widespread overt deliberate corruption or voter suppression. If we still disagree then we still disagree!

Biden is now up to +10.4 nationally in 538's polling average

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Lots of good results from yesterdays primaries, especially in NY. Nice to see.

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turbopuns3 posted...

none of this warrants cries of systemic racism or widespread overt deliberate corruption or voter suppression.

Man why do people keep acting like this stuff has to be deliberate? Incompetence and indifference also result in the same thing. Recent politics has plenty of examples of people just not giving a shit and causing harm.

Like oh man I accidentally hit a dude with my car but I didn't MEAN to hurt him so I guess it's fine!

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https://twitter.com/ollie_xvx/status/1275434686735503361?s=21
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Suppression does not require malice.
Suppression does not require racism.
Suppression does not require INTENT to suppress voter turnout.

Yes, malicious, racist voter suppression has occurred in other instances, and that might not be what this is. But this is still an example of votes being suppressed by changes that made it more burdensome for a number of people who WANTED to cast their votes.

And we're acknowledging that GOOD changes were made to the voting in Kentucky as well. It's possible to make more than one change and for some of the changes to be good and for other changes to be bad.

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https://twitter.com/brooklynmutt/status/1275582279289581571?s=21


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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Suppression does not require racism.

I'm going to springboard off this to make another point: racism does not require intent.

Example: in 2018 there was a Texas gerrymandering case that went to the Supreme Court. It's a complicated case so if you want to read about it yourself I'll drop the link here

https://www.texastribune.org/2018/06/25/us-supreme-ruling-court-texas-redistricting-case/

But the tl;dr is, state makes racially gerrymandered maps. They don't go into effect, but they still need maps so the court adopts temporary maps based on them while they are fixed. They're still biased. The state goes "let's just adopt these temp ones" and gets challenged due to the lingering bias. Is this intentionally racist suppression?

The supreme court ruled that, no, this was not intentional racist suppression and the maps are allowed to stand (except for one district). There was no evidence for intent even though there was evidence that the racial bias existed. And so, those votes are still being suppressed in a systemically racist manner, where the intent of racism has seemingly disappeared into thin air!

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Follow up as an aside, since I'm already Going Off about local Texas politics, this is why Texas is very important to watch this year. Not because the state might turn blue for the presidency, which is a long shot, but because Democrats need to win a majority in the state House to keep more bullshit maps from being drawn next year. Republicans are terrified of Texas turning blue and have been doing everything in their power to stop it, so if they go unchecked this year they can buy another decade of stalling.

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Sure. I accept that if even just 1 individual tries their very hardest to do everything in their power to vote and is denied the ability to do so by the system (read that carefully~), then yes voter suppression has occurred.

As I said already. I just didn't appreciate what seemed to be like an overblown reaction born from ignorance (and I'm talking about from the nation not this thread). So I came here to vent about it. Kentucky is an easy target for all the racism cries which gets really fucking old. I'm not denying systemic racism exists. But these warriors should've been out in force in April if this entire system was so fucked. Clearly lots of people just seeing the headlines day to day and going "omg corruption". I laughed out loud this morning when I checked Twitter to see what was trending and 3 of the top 5 hashtags had "Wednesday" in them and I'm like, oh ok good we're moving on. Hopefully the general will have fewer roadblocks.