Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 307: Tulsa Staggered

(+) Yeah! (+)

Eh. I'd have to know the maximum distance people have to travel to consider that suppression. Consolidating voting locations seems to suppress voting by creating huge wait times while also having very limited voting hours, at least from my perspective. But if they are giving weeks to vote in person as well as free transport it seems like maybe they've found a way around that? Maybe if you have far fewer voting locations but far more flexibility on when you can vote and how you can get there you will actually end up with higher participation? And perhaps it's far cheaper, meaning you could get high participation with less funding. Which is ideal since we all know the government doesn't put nearly enough funding in to the voting process. I'd be interested for a study on this and I don't think anyone here is well versed enough to know the actual conclusion.

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Thread:

https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1275500327731695618?s=21

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Thread:

https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1275500327731695618?s=21

Sounds like an acquittal is in order. Different treatment is unacceptable.

New Lincoln Project ad:

https://twitter.com/ProjectLincoln/status/1275410546666463232

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SmartMuffin posted...

SSC has been deleted because the NYT threatened to doxx him.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/06/22/nyt-is-threatening-my-safety-by-revealing-my-real-name-so-i-am-deleting-the-blog/

Most of you fascists will cheer this I'm sure, but it still makes me sad...

i've never had an opinion on SSC because i never read him. if every time you want to share an opinion, you need to write a fucking book doing so, i'm not interested in it.

reminds of when i ask people to explain to me why objectivism is good, they go "READ ATLAS SHRUGGED LOL." yeah sure, i'm going to read an 800000000 page book that i probably won't even enjoy. very reasonable request.

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https://twitter.com/DemmyXii/status/1275307123300282369?s=19

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Unless something's changed in the last few years SSC is pretty reasonable. His main issue is that his posts are all obscenely long.

I wouldn't quite consider that "doxxing," but if they have that policy they should either have informed him of it ahead of time or give him the option to have the article killed now (preferably the former as not to waste both parties' time, but clearly that ship has sailed). I might feel differently if his identity itself was actually newsworthy, but it isn't.

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Unless something's changed in the last few years SSC is pretty reasonable. His main issue is that his posts are all obscenely long.

You have to be long when you actually

1. Name, cite, and discuss actual research and data
2. Entertain common objections and address all known controversial items

The fact that MSM journalists refuse to do this reflects the poor quality of their work. Scott is basically the only honest writer in America. You really can't discuss controversial issues reasonably in five paragraphs. It's just not possible.

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i think its pretty messed up that NYT writer is like "nope i gotta release your whole name, nothing i can do"

pseudonyms are not unusual on the internet... or in journalism....

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It boils down to this, you all. Anyone in Kentucky who is registered to vote has perfect accessibility to voting. There isn't a single valid reason that a single registered voter has been unable to vote that does not fall under one of these:

-they did not pay any attention to politics or news from march until today (but suddenly are the most impassioned patriotic voter ever, today? wut?)

-they didn't feel like it

-they refuse to trust the integrity of the mail or even a physical on-site drop-box for ballots (which is...I mean, what can you say? Why do you implicitly trust the voting booth? /shrug)

Outside of extreme circumstances, I can't think of a single other thing stopping someone from voting.

The point of "it's still suppression because old people might choose to not vote" is pretty rich, imo, considering it's just as illogical when you flip it around and say "it was previously suppressing young people who chose not to vote" when they had to go in person but did vote now that they could do it by mail?

Like, it's a choice. Everyone had the opportunity to vote. Ample, ample opportunity. If you're looking for corruption here I just ask you to think twice because you must be squinting pretty hard. You'll get wrinkles.

CoolCly posted...

i think its pretty messed up that NYT writer is like "nope i gotta release your whole name, nothing i can do"

pseudonyms are not unusual on the internet... or in journalism....

It's trivially easy to find examples of the NYT happily discussing and quoting anonymous Twitter accounts. They made this up. The whole point was to use this as a club to threaten and bully and intimidate Scott into submission.

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SmartMuffin posted...

You have to be long when you actually

1. Name, cite, and discuss actual research and data
2. Entertain common objections and address all known controversial items

The fact that MSM journalists refuse to do this reflects the poor quality of their work. Scott is basically the only honest writer in America. You really can't discuss controversial issues reasonably in five paragraphs. It's just not possible.

SSC could very well post both a summary of an argument AND an obscenely long post for the people who are really interested in it.

university papers have abstracts for a reason. there's only so much time people have to read stuff like this.

(also, back in the days of the freedom topic, you constantly linked to blog posts that disucssed controversial issues in five paragraphs [or less]. hell, even your own blog posts were way shorter than the average SSC post lol)

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turbopuns3 posted...

The point of "it's still suppression because old people might choose to not vote" is pretty rich, imo, considering it's just as illogical when you flip it around and say "it was previously suppressing young people who chose not to vote" when they had to go in person but did vote now that they could do it by mail?

Hot take: It's voter suppression both ways.

Not having adequate options to mail in returns is suppression.

Not having adequate polling locations (which could realistically result in oppressively long lines) is suppression.

I can be suppression either way and it seems like a pretty logical opinion to hold.

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Not_an_Owl posted...

Unless your jurisdiction preemptively mails ballots to everyone (not "you don't need an excuse for an absentee ballot but you still have to formally request one", but "we will mail every single registered voter a ballot weeks in advance of the election without need for them to request it"), any amount of closed voting sites constitutes voter suppression.

Good job, your system just sent MY ballot to my old apartment because my registration wasn't updated. Someone else just received my personal ballot.

Yeah...asking for you to literally just sign your name to confirm you live there is probably a good idea, lol. So, I mean you're really really reaching on this imo.

(also, back in the days of the freedom topic, you constantly linked to blog posts that disucssed controversial issues in five paragraphs [or less]. hell, even your own blog posts were way shorter than the average SSC post lol)

Yeah, and I suck compared to Scott. Nothing I've ever produced is remotely as good or as important as his best work.

That's why this is such a huge blow. Idiots with opinions who summarize articles in five paragraphs are a dime a dozen. I know because I am one. But almost nobody did what Scott did, and certainly nobody did it nearly as well.

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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Not having adequate options to mail in returns is suppression.

Not having adequate polling locations (which could realistically result in oppressively long lines) is suppression.

Again. 2 week window to go vote if you don't wanna use mail.

Like. For goodness sake. Again, I said it's not a perfect system but it will be improved by November and it is creating nowhere near the problems people are imagining.

Like, news reports today said there were "no lines" in Louisville's 1 voting location.

Lexington, the next biggest city, did get lines up to 2 hours at one point and then they quickly brought in more machines and staff and alleviated it.

They're doing it right.

turbopuns3 posted...

Good job, your system just sent MY ballot to my old apartment because my registration wasn't updated. Someone else just received my personal ballot.

Yeah...asking for you to literally just sign your name to confirm you live there is probably a good idea, lol. So, I mean you're really really reaching on this imo.

why are you like great job, your system did this thing when its your fault you didnt get your ballot because you didnt update your own registration

Whats the concern here? do you think the person who got your ballot in this situation is likely to open mail not addressed to them and then also commit voter fraud by submitting your ballot?
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https://freebeacon.com/media/well-known-blogger-shuts-down-site-for-fear-of-nyt-doxxing/

This is a pretty good and reasonably objective summary of the situation (trigger warning: will take you more than 30 seconds to read)

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It is not complicated.

Less polling places is objectively a negative thing.

That negative thing was reported on as a negative thing.

We have recent examples of similar situations going very poorly.

That is literally all there is to it.

Acting appalled that a negative thing is being reported negatively is silly.

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Unambiguously bad day for coronavirus numbers. All measures are up from a week ago, including deaths:

https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1275545662969589760

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turbopuns3 posted...

Good job, your system just sent MY ballot to my old apartment because my registration wasn't updated. Someone else just received my personal ballot.

Yeah...asking for you to literally just sign your name to confirm you live there is probably a good idea, lol. So, I mean you're really really reaching on this imo.

How long does it take to update your voter registration? Maybe a minute to google your county clerk's office, another minute or two to navigate their site to the appropriate page, then two or three to either fill out an online form or print a paper form and fill it out? Then another minute or two to put it in an envelope, attach a stamp, and drop it in a mailbox? Eight minutes, maybe ten if you're feeling especially pokey that day?

Compare that to how long it would take to get a ballot if you don't move - no time at all, because your address is on file and you don't need to update anything. I would also wager that the vast majority of voters don't move in between elections, and thus the number of people needing to update registration in between elections would be far fewer than the number who would manually request a mail-in ballot every election if given the chance.

I should also say that no-excuse-needed mail-in voting is a very good thing and all states should adopt it (not only on the principle that voting should be easy and accessible, but also because of the very real public safety concerns involved in running an election in the middle of a plague). I'm absolutely in favor of Kentucky making this change, and I hope more states follow suit. However, a) the system could be better, and b) that still doesn't excuse closing 90% of your polling places until and unless you have definitive data suggesting that most of the polling places are redundant.

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Here's some fun numbers.

Most votes in a primary in Jefferson County (Louisville) in recent years was in '08 when Obama was running:

192,630 total
144,871 Democrats

In 2020, even though people had to *gasp* request a ballot, Jefferson county mailed out in response to those requests:

222,705 ballots

That's how many people requested mail-in ballots. It's more than the highest vote count they've seen in years in that precinct.

HashtagSEP posted...

It is not complicated.

Less polling places is objectively a negative thing.

That negative thing was reported on as a negative thing.

We have recent examples of similar situations going very poorly.

That is literally all there is to it.

Acting appalled that a negative thing is being reported negatively is silly.

The reason I am reacting like this is it's not just "reported negatively"

That's whatever

It's people like LeBron tweeting out "systemic racism" is destroying the Kentucky election. And not just him but others, too. When in reality it is just so far from that it's mind blowing to me.

Not_an_Owl posted...

How long does it take to update your voter registration? Maybe a minute to google your county clerk's office, another minute or two to navigate their site to the appropriate page, then two or three to either fill out an online form or print a paper form and fill it out? Then another minute or two to put it in an envelope, attach a stamp, and drop it in a mailbox? Eight minutes, maybe ten if you're feeling especially pokey that day?

thank you for explaining how the current system is not the least bit prohibitive lmao

But I do agree that the no-excuse mail-in should just always be a thing, yeah.

turbopuns3 posted...

thank you for explaining how the current system is not the least bit prohibitive lmao

It's not that it's prohibitive, it's that you should always be trying to inconvenience the fewest number of people possible when you're running something on the scale of a statewide election.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Unambiguously bad day for coronavirus numbers. All measures are up from a week ago, including deaths:

https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1275545662969589760

What's up with these numbers then? Is the CDC lying?

https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Death-Counts-by-Week-Ending-D/r8kw-7aab/data

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Not_an_Owl posted...

It's not that it's prohibitive, it's that you should always be trying to inconvenience the fewest number of people possible when you're running something on the scale of a statewide election.

I mean, fair. But to be clear I do keep my registration up to date. I was making an example to show you it is super naive to implement a system that implicitly trusts that 3 million people will never let something lapse like that. If we are talking about how a signature and dropping a card in the mailbox is too inconvenient to earn my right to vote I just, yeah. Idk.

In november maybe they can make it even more convenient for me by choosing my vote and filling out my ballot for me. Don't bother mailing it to me, that'd be pretty inconvenient. I definitely don't feel like coloring in the little square next to the name. Shew.

red sox 777 posted...

What's up with these numbers then? Is the CDC lying?

https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Death-Counts-by-Week-Ending-D/r8kw-7aab/data

From the "about" tab:

Number of deaths reported in this table are the total number of deaths received and coded as of the date of analysis, and do not represent all deaths that occurred in that period. Data during this period are incomplete because of the lag in time between when the death occurred and when the death certificate is completed, submitted to NCHS and processed for reporting purposes. This delay can range from 1 week to 8 weeks or more. Percent of expected deaths is the number of deaths for all causes for this week in 2020 compared to the average number across the same week in 20172019. Previous analyses of 20152016 provisional data completeness have found that completeness is lower in the first few weeks following the date of death (<25%), and then increases over time such that data are generally at least 75% complete within 8 weeks of when the death occurred.

Sounds like they don't include deaths until the death certificate is processed. Deaths falling by a factor of 8 in a week should be a pretty big tell that the data is not complete.

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turbopuns3 posted...

It's people like LeBron tweeting out "systemic racism" is destroying the Kentucky election. And not just him but others, too. When in reality it is just so far from that it's mind blowing to me.

Is it so far from it, though? Who do you think the people most likely to be impacted negatively by this are?

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https://mobile.twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1275483775061749760

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StealThisSheen posted...

Who do you think the people most likely to be impacted negatively by this are?

people who don't pay any attention to anything in the world

people who don't feel like voting

people who don't trust the mail or a drop-box

people who would normally have the means of traveling a mile or two in order to get to their polling place but not like 4 or 5 miles with a 2 week window (help me imagine a reason for this?), and simultaneously refuse to mail in

LordoftheMorons posted...

From the "about" tab:

Sounds like they don't include deaths until the death certificate is processed. Deaths falling by a factor of 8 in a week should be a pretty big tell that the data is not complete.

Ah that makes more sense. I did think the numbers for last week were unbelievably low.

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turbopuns3 posted...

people who don't pay any attention to anything in the world

people who don't feel like voting

people who don't trust the mail or a drop-box

people who would normally have the means of traveling a mile or two in order to get to their polling place but not like 4 or 5 miles with a 2 week window (help me imagine a reason for this?), and simultaneously refuse to mail in

I see you've already made your mind up that you're going to be a "blame the voter" guy, so I don't feel this discussion needs to go any further.

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turbopuns3 posted...

people who would normally have the means of traveling a mile or two in order to get to their polling place but not like 4 or 5 miles with a 2 week window (help me imagine a reason for this?), and simultaneously refuse to mail in

I would actually feel a lot better if someone can describe a situation to fit this and make me be like "oh wow that makes a lot of sense and definitely affects a significant number of people"

It seems like a pretty narrow range of circumstances

StealThisSheen posted...

I see you've already made your mind up that you're going to be a "blame the voter" guy, so I don't feel this discussion needs to go any further.

Can you explain to me how it is an example of systemic racism and also can you explain to me why you think Andy Beshear is a racist who approves of systemic racist election practices? I really would like to hear your take, so I wish you didn't just act like you had something to say then refuse to say it.

turbopuns3 posted...

help me imagine a reason for this?

not having a vehicle, or money for an uber?

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Not to mention that it's sadly hilarious that you think everyone is within 5 miles of a polling site when you're down to 200 sites statewide.


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I don't necessarily think Andy Beshear is racist

I do think Andy Beshear is naive and idealistic and thus potentially blind to the systematic racism of others.

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I don't think that, please try to focus on the more important points or at least address my questions

turbopuns3 posted...

I don't think that, please try to focus on the more important points or at least address my questions

turbopuns3 posted...

people who would normally have the means of traveling a mile or two in order to get to their polling place but not like 4 or 5 miles with a 2 week window (help me imagine a reason for this?), and simultaneously refuse to mail in

You clearly do though?

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I don't see how you can argue that this type of thing is acceptable:

https://twitter.com/chefjoseandres/status/1275554008934092801

Were these voters supposed to anticipate this?

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The numbers were just arbitrary because it was never the case in the first place that everyone lived within walking distance of their polling place. It already requires some type of transit for the majority of people to get there. So I'm asking what are the circumstances that draw the line between "I could get there by car before one way or another, but now I can't"

LordoftheMorons posted...

Were these voters supposed to anticipate this?

The 6pm deadline? Yeah it was clearly communicated forever ago.

Nah, I mean I get that that's a problem. Hence why a page or two ago I said we should have had more places open. A logistical failure there for sure. However I do maintain that Louisville getting full parking lots toward the end of the election time does not reflect systemic racism.

turbopuns3 posted...

The 6pm deadline? Yeah it was clearly communicated forever ago.

Legally they are not supposed to close if you are in line before the close time. Poll closing times are when new line additions stop.

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It's not systematic racism, but it's still a bad way to run an election.

As for the 6 p.m. deadline, that's not new. That's how KY is usually first in the nation to declare its results - by having the earliest poll closing time in the nation. But that's been the case since at least the 2000 election.

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I do think no excuse absentee voting is more important than in person polling places being maintained at the same level, but I dont see why they couldnt do both. Everything I read indicates this was a compromise between the governor and Secretary of State so Beshear likely had to make these concessions to get everything else he wanted.

But if youre worried about the pandemic it makes more sense to keep more places open so people who want to vote in person arent waiting bunched together in huge groups.

I mean a lot of what was done is very very good but were still going to look at the one bad thing to come out of it and try to make sure it gets fixed by the general election.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Legally they are not supposed to close if you are in line before the close time. Poll closing times are when new line additions stop.

Right, and I'm pretty sure the problem here is that "in line" in this case meant in the door. Thus these people were not "in line". They were still walking up to the building and parking and whatnot.

I'm not saying that's a good situation but it's not like they suddenly broke the rules or something. It was definitely a shortcoming of planning by...well, by many people.

turbopuns3 posted...

It was definitely a shortcoming of planning by...well, by many people.

No see this is where you're getting messed up I think.

It's not a bad planning, it's intentional.

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Like...ugh, I'm really getting worn out and just plain hot so I should stop lol but in all seriousness yes they did have months of advance warning that they could mail in votes if they wanted and that doors would close at 6pm. Lots of parking around the area near deadline? Like...uh, yeah guys? You should have anticipated that haha.

Again, it still sucks! But. Ya know. Options were there. And advance warning. Etc. It's not like the system could not have possibly worked.

Anyway I am tapping out of this one guys. Thanks for checking me on my random once a year foray into these politics topics. Time for me to go back in my hole for a while. Saw some facebook posts this morning about how ridiculous the national news was acting (posts by my black friends no less!) and they just got me riled up.

Time for a nice long walk.

LordoftheMorons posted...

I don't see how you can argue that this type of thing is acceptable:

https://twitter.com/chefjoseandres/status/1275554008934092801

Were these voters supposed to anticipate this?

https://twitter.com/ironstache/status/1275557194688278530?s=21

and more!


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