Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 303: The System Doesn't Work

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Jakyl25 posted...

No, Im saying the fact that they even need body cams to be accountable for their actions is a poor reflection on police period.

They don't need them to be accountable. People want them to ensure they are accountable. Like, you are trying to argue about nonsense right now.

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(yes that's the joke in the original dril tweet. only it was like a family budget and candles were inexplicably the item all the money was going into)

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Jakyl25 posted...

Why do you say that? Why not just restructure the massive amount of funds they currently get?

i mean that's necessary too, and it's gonna happen regardless due to corona. take NYC - relevant on both issues. we're looking at a budget deficit of at least $9 billion. everything is getting cuts, NYPD included. i'm sure there's a lot of waste in there that isn't necessary. budget is $6 billion on NYPD.

first number to note, there's 38-39,000 cops. that's a lot of money in salaries alone.

but a cop makes $42,500 when they start. over here that ain't much, you normally can't live on that alone. yes, there's very good benefits involved, but benefits don't pay rent and they don't pay food. you're making a slightly above entry level job at a much greater risk. now there is overtime pay that can be very helpful but it's also pretty much necessary early on, which shows a massive flaw in the system's starting salary. also the salary does improve dramatically but it means you're eating shit for a while there. on this aspect, like all major jobs, they owe a lot to this improvement to the unions. you know, those things normally defended by the left but conveniently aren't here? yeah, those things. it's because of that cops who stay on the force for 5+ years make some good money.

if your goal is to have a force of well educated, well paid, well trained professionals? you're gonna spend more to do it, not less. i'm not sure what people think the costs are but the overwhelming majority is going to the usual paychecks. OT is a notable value but still a fraction of that. equipment and supplies aren't much. bluntly, if you cut funding you're cutting salaries, which will only produce the opposite of what you want because those who are well educated and want decent pay won't go there. those who are well trained will have significantly better opportunities elsewhere. those who lack education, lack training, and aren't professional will be the main ones signing up along with cops who will become either disillusioned and leave or rely on corruption to get more of what they want.

their full budget from 2020 is here. ultimately when you end up breaking it down you end up with a picture of a department that's pretty well squeezed as is.

https://council.nyc.gov/budget/wp-content/uploads/sites/54/2019/03/056-NYPD-2020.pdf

i don't know how the supposed idea of a billion dollar cut is gonna work in that budget. they honestly don't make much for what it is.

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Can I just ask, before the discussion completely shifts away, @ChaosTonyV4 ? What about America do you think makes us more of a liberal country than a conservative one? Because I think this is the root of why you and I butt heads so often and so easily, and I genuinely would like to know your side of the argument here.

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xp1337 posted...

(yes that's the joke in the original dril tweet. only it was like a family budget and candles were inexplicably the item all the money was going into)

You were supposed to reply with 'no' like in the original tweet chain! You've ruined everything! *storms off*

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Kinglicious posted...

i don't know how the supposed idea of a billion dollar cut is gonna work in that budget. they honestly don't make much for what it is.

Unlike the federal government, states are required to have balanced budgets so they don't really have much of a choice, if they're running a deficit they have to make cuts even if they're draconian.

It's why it was important that the federal government actually help them out with COVID-19 in giving them money to cover the massive unexpected expense but idk McConnell is okay with them just going bankrupt what could go wrong.

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KamikazePotato posted...

You were supposed to reply with 'no' like in the original tweet chain! You've ruined everything! *storms off*

i am the worst

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Corrik, if we body cammed every Officer, would you be okay with having an independent third party office, otherwise unaffiliated with police, on call to review any footage where there is use of force or where a complaint is lodged?

They would also have the authority to discipline officers as necessary without oversight from the police, and the ability to consult with prosecutors about anything that needs to go to court

Because if you go all in on accountability, you have to take that accountability completely out of the hands of police departments themselves. No more investigating your own officers and never finding anything wrong.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik, if we body cammed every Officer, would you be okay with having an independent third party office, otherwise unaffiliated with police, on call to review any footage where there is use of force or where a complaint is lodged?

They would also have the authority to discipline officers as necessary without oversight from the police, and the ability to consult with prosecutors about anything that needs to go to court

Because if you go all in on accountability, you have to take that accountability completely out of the hands of police departments themselves. No more investigating your own officers and never finding anything wrong.

You are literally suggesting my idea from like 2 topics ago.

I said give police more funding. Have body cams on all police. Have a community group from the neighborhood that can volunteer to watch the feeds and write down notes of things they wished to discuss from a standpoint of what they feel wasn't done right or not.

At the very least, the people who are reviewing things can see just how much the police do a good job most of the time instead of only hearing about them when mistakes happen. And, maybe when seeing the things they can deal with daily, have another understanding of things.

It works two fold.

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xp1337 posted...

Unlike the federal government, states are required to have balanced budgets so they don't really have much of a choice, if they're running a deficit they have to make cuts even if they're draconian.

It's why it was important that the federal government actually help them out with COVID-19 in giving them money to cover the massive unexpected expense but idk McConnell is okay with them just going bankrupt what could go wrong.

oh i totally agree on that aspect. the feds not helping will just end up hurting them. ironically, police will be defunded after all, in every state, because every department is going to see big number and decide "we cut there."

like in that budget right there, on page 8, you've got a basic summary point to start with:

$3.7 billion is spent on full time salaries.
$725 million on OT
$575 million on additional gross pay
$130 million on benefits + unsalaried

...and the combined aspects of various services, charges, supplies & materials, and property & equipment rounds out to around $600 million, the last two categories $176 million at that. ...and that's the full budget. is there a problem with OT being higher than literally everything else, of course. but it's wages that are gonna get wrecked quick.

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Corrik7 posted...

I said give police more funding. Have body cams on all police. Have a community group from the neighborhood that can volunteer to watch the feeds and write down notes of things they wished to discuss from a standpoint of what they feel wasn't done right or not.

Start with re-evaluating how the CURRENT funding is being spent. Because you can bet there are resources that are being under utilized that could have instead gone towards things like universal body cams.

And if you go the route of hiring mental health professionals to deal with the people experiencing mental health problems then that's less "standard man with a gun cop" that you would need so you're going to save on funding there as well.

And not every police department is being funded on the same scale, so where appropriate, yes, increase funding. But by and large the funding is there, and the correct utilization of funds is not.

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Kinglicious posted...

oh i totally agree on that aspect. the feds not helping will just end up hurting them. ironically, police will be defunded after all, in every state, because every department is going to see big number and decide "we cut there."

like in that budget right there, on page 8, you've got a basic summary point to start with:

$3.7 billion is spent on full time salaries.
$725 million on OT
$575 million on additional gross pay
$130 million on benefits + unsalaried

...and the combined aspects of various services, charges, supplies & materials, and property & equipment rounds out to around $600 million, the last two categories $176 million at that. ...and that's the full budget. is there a problem with OT being higher than literally everything else, of course. but it's wages that are gonna get wrecked quick.

If you don't wanna pay OT then stop having crime and riots to make them. We had people cheering making cops working 44 hours a week OT just a few topics ago. Newsflash. You making the cops rich and you are paying the bill. Lol.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Because if you go all in on accountability, you have to take that accountability completely out of the hands of police departments themselves. No more investigating your own officers and never finding anything wrong.

for what it's worth, this aspect has overwhelming popular support and has for years. iirc it was a 2016 or 2017 poll that had it like 79% approval. nobody likes the internal investigation bullshit.


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Or we could try defunding the police and instead funding the root causes of most crime like poverty and stress-related mental health issues
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Kinglicious posted...

first number to note, there's 38-39,000 cops. that's a lot of money in salaries alone.

Sounds like we need less cops then.

Here's an idea, what if you decriminalize some popular things like drugs and prostitution and all those bullshit tickets that everyone hates and we all know they just use to fill quotas and make money for the department and their salaries? That means you don't need to pay cops to do those jobs anymore and as an upside the remaining ones can focus on more serious issues.

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Kinglicious posted...

for what it's worth, this aspect has overwhelming popular support and has for years. iirc it was a 2016 or 2017 poll that had it like 79% approval. nobody likes the internal investigation bullshit.

So whats stopping them? The police themselves?
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Sounds like we need less cops then.

sure.
in the same way we need looser gun restrictions~

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Jakyl25 posted...

So whats stopping them? The police themselves?

most likely, yes. they tend to be a very strong lobby. totally in favor of fuck lobbies. not as in favor of fuck unions, which has been the hypocritical sentiment even in this topic.

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It's not hypocritical to be anti-one specific union that does bad things while being generally pro-union.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Here's an idea, what if you decriminalize some popular things like drugs and prostitution

But then how else will we fill prisons with enough people to use as slave labor? Just think of the economy!

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Decriminalize drugs. Lmfao. Jesus.

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Kinglicious posted...

sure.
in the same way we need looser gun restrictions~

I'm in favor of allowing people to buy basic guns for self-defense so you've got yourself a deal!

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Kinglicious posted...

most likely, yes. they tend to be a very strong lobby. totally in favor of fuck lobbies. not as in favor of fuck unions, which has been the hypocritical sentiment even in this topic.

Corrik why are the police against accountability
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Corrik7 posted...

Decriminalize drugs. Lmfao. Jesus.

So you don't like weed but prostitution is okay huh

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Corrik7 posted...

Decriminalize drugs. Lmfao. Jesus.

Jesus would in fact be in favor of this
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Corrik7 posted...

Decriminalize drugs. Lmfao. Jesus.

Half the nation has already decriminalized weed.
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Inviso posted...

Can I just ask, before the discussion completely shifts away, @ChaosTonyV4 ? What about America do you think makes us more of a liberal country than a conservative one? Because I think this is the root of why you and I butt heads so often and so easily, and I genuinely would like to know your side of the argument here.

I think largely its that 99% of the art and media produced here is extremely socially left.

Its also part of why the young Left doesnt show up to vote. They see their values in most of the media they consume but dont see it replicated in politics, so they see a blatant disconnect think the system is rigged against them (and it is).


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Hbthebattle posted...

Half the nation has already decriminalized weed.

Cuz weed is all drugs. Lol.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

think largely its that 99% of the art and media produced here is extremely socially left.

Ironic to say this on a video game message board
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I'm in favor of allowing people to buy basic guns for self-defense so you've got yourself a deal!

no lie, that'd be a significant improvement.
was looking into the rules here.

you're gonna wait about a year no matter what.
if you want a handgun you literally need to write an essay about why you want a gun, get multiple people saying you're fine, do an interview, and are pretty much going to get denied unless you're a celebrity of some kind. oh, and if you get denied you paid your fee for nothing.

rifles and shotguns are easier, technically, though there's a billion restrictions that are absurd and silly because there's always a workaround since, y'know, it's a modular weapon. they don't have an interview, so that's a start. still gonna take 9+ months.

it's really, really fucking stupid and unsurprising that 3/4 of our guns come from out of state. anybody who wants one just looks at everything it takes and goes fuck that, i'll just go to PA, to Vermont, to NH, to anywhere else that's easier to buy. ....or 3D print these days. that's on the rise too.

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yeah

1) end the war on drugs. prohibition propped up the mafia, the drug war props up all of the "Bad Guys" and makes people afraid to call the cops for real problems
2) divide 'police' into separate services- a section for the cops who confirm who was at fault for an accident, write your parking tickets, help find lost kids, etc., a section for mental health responses, and finally a section equivalent to swat
3) if you're not in the swat section, don't carry weapons
4) transparency

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I think largely its that 99% of the art and media produced here is extremely socially left.

Its also part of why the young Left doesnt show up to vote. They see their values in most of the media they consume but dont see it replicated in politics, so they see a blatant disconnect think the system is rigged against them (and it is).

Why do you think art and media is socially left though?

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You know the public sentiment tide is shifting if KARL ROVE says this:

"Do white Americans feel the same pressure that black and brown families do? Do white families fear their kids will be pulled over for no reason other than the color of their skin? No. So, they'll never relate in exactly the same way," Rove told POLITICO's Tim Alberta. "But I do think they relate a lot more than they did 10 or 20 years ago. And I do think that changes the party, to some degree, moving forward."
"But the days of 'lock 'em up and throw away the key' are long gone. It's just no longer sufficient," he said.

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Jakyl25 posted...

You know the public sentiment tide is shifting if KARL ROVE says this:

You know which candidate has run for office on a platform of lock them up and throw away the key?

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red sox 777 posted...

You know which candidate has run for office on a platform of lock them up and throw away the key?

If I recall correctly, that was a Trump slogan in reference to his opponent

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https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/1270445703404425218

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

If I recall correctly, that was a Trump slogan in reference to his opponent

Trump called for specific people to be locked up for committing specific crimes. Biden and Hillary called for whole demographics of people to be incarcerated not because of anything specific they did, but because they were "super predators."

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https://babynames.com/

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I think the best way to give cops accountability at this point is to abolish the police union. It's a joke and absolutely the reason they can get away with what they do. The taxpayer pays for the police union, which has the primary goal of supporting the police officer. Why are the taxpayers paying an organization that actively works against them?

Get rid of police union and add actual accountability to the force. All of the training in the world isn't going to change anything until they know they can't just do whatever the fuck they want anyway. It just won't. Reallocate a lot of the taxpayer money into something that supports the taxpayer and oversees the police department and actively looks into complaints and takes them seriously instead of a police union that gets a complaint and immediately goes "okay let's see how to get you out of this."

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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

I think the best way to give cops accountability at this point is to abolish the police union.

Welcome to unions, pro-union dems.

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Yeah fuck Unions, everyone go work for peanuts with no worker protections.

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I don't think anybody's complaining about the work police unions do to, like, bargain for increased wages

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red13n posted...

Yeah fuck Unions, everyone go work for peanuts with no worker protections.

If you don't see the difference between a labor union (whose purpose is to improve working conditions for its members) and a police union (whose purpose is to shield its members from all consequences of their actions, including when said members literally murder people) then you may need to get your eyes checked.

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Apparently my sarcasm was missed?

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red13n posted...

Apparently my sarcasm was missed?

In this topic series, the only way I can tell if someone is being sarcastic or not is their username. If some others had posted what you did, I would've 100% believed it was their real feelings. And your name at a glance can be confused with red sox...and I've never seen you and red sox in the room at the same time...suspicious!

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KamikazePotato posted...

In this topic series, the only way I can tell if someone is being sarcastic or not is their username. If some others had posted what you did, I would've 100% believed it was their real feelings. And your name at a glance can be confused with red sox...and I've never seen you and red sox in the room at the same time...suspicious!

We are not the same person.

Also, I support unions more often than not and always support helping workers. Also, I never use profanity here. So, there is about a 0% chance I would make that post.

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red13n posted...

Apparently my sarcasm was missed?

Whoops, should have quoted... my post was in response to Corrik, not you

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red sox 777 posted...

We are not the same person.

Also, I support unions more often than not and always support helping workers. Also, I never use profanity here. So, there is about a 0% chance I would make that post.

okay settle down red13n and get off your alt account

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Whoops, should have quoted... my post was in response to Corrik, not you

Why would your response be to me? It doesn't even make sense in relation to me.

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rage against the machine trending...

https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1270433829078130689

lmaooooo

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