Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 303: The System Doesn't Work

(+) Yeah! (+)

Woah Cuomo, this is like....a big deal.

https://twitter.com/Complex/status/1270003770055892992?s=19

Cwhoamo

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Inviso posted...

What I mean is that this country, as a whole, is far more conservative than a lot of Democrats want to believe.

Politicians, sure, and thats because the basis of conservatism, fear, just so happens to be the best motivator for voting.

But when you consider that literally aspect of our popular culture is, uh, not Conservative, I dont really see how you can make the argument that the majority of the country is conservative. Thats just not reality,

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Ashethan posted...

Also, next time someone chimes in about Dems being silent about something, just remember how little anyone has denounced Trump for his unsubstantiated claims about Martin Gugino, including Marco Rubio who just said he didn't see it.

Also if you want more evidence for WHY our politics are more conservative compared to the majority of the country, look no further than someone apropos of nothing preemptively defending Democrats for doing nothing by using fear to say Republicans are worse.

This system sucks.


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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Politicians, sure, and thats because the basis of conservatism, fear, just so happens to be the best motivator for voting.

But when you consider that literally aspect of our popular culture is, uh, not Conservative, I dont really see how you can make the argument that the majority of the country is conservative.

Theres just no evidence for that.

What exactly makes you think our pop culture is not conservative?

Don't get me wrong, I think there has been a shift in recent years, but the baseline of pop culture still seems to have a very conservative tinge to it.

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How is America not a conservative country? The voters do generally support ideas to the left of our elected politicians, but even accounting for that we're well to the right of every other first-world country on everything except some social issues.
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America is extremely conservative. The Democratic Party would be a right-wing party in the first-world countries (which we are not btw)

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In America, Bernie Sanders is a far-left candidate.
In first world countries, Bernie Sanders is a moderate liberal.

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I said I think Americas politics are extremely conservative.

The American people almost certainly are not.

Its a function of our two party system. If we started ranked choice voting (which is really the only way I could ever see the two party paradigm breaking), I can guarantee the political system would swing leftward immediately.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I said I think Americas politics are extremely conservative.

The American people almost certainly are not.

Its a function of our two party system. If we started ranked choice voting (which is really the only way I could ever see the two party paradigm breaking), I can guarantee the political system would swing leftward immediately.

Why exactly do you think the people aren't, though?

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What aspects of Conservatism exist in our culture?

Except for the respect for religion, I literally cannot think of anything socially or culturally conservative that is considered ideal or even acceptable?

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Except for the respect for religion, I literally cannot think of anything socially or culturally conservative that is considered ideal or even acceptable?

Guns.

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I dont think of guns as conservative, but this did help me think of one: Nationalism/Patriotism.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

What aspects of Conservatism exist in our culture?

Except for the respect for religion, I literally cannot think of anything socially or culturally conservative that is considered ideal or even acceptable?

Low taxes, small government. People generally support the country's police and military. Outlook towards crime in general is largely punitive. The fact that control of government moves back and forth in interim elections shows that people generally favor moderation.

Tons of conservatism here.

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The general stance of "don't you dare take/limit/etc. my guns" is definitely conservative.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Low taxes, small government. People generally support the country's police and military. Outlook towards crime in general is largely punitive. The fact that control of government moves back and forth in interim elections shows that people generally favor moderation.

Tons of conservatism here.

This is directly politics-related, and I already explained I think our system heavily favors conservatism.

but cultural things that dont require voting are largely not-Conservative and often anti-conservative (and I have no problem with it).

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Strong national military is another. Why do you think call of duty and war movies are so popular?

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red sox 777 posted...

Republicans are actually willing to consider policies that help the poor.

too bad they only "consider" the policies and never actually help the poor

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I dont think of guns as conservative,

uh

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I dont think of guns as conservative, but this did help me think of one: Nationalism/Patriotism.

Guns are very much conservative. And they're highly prevalent in our pop culture (hence why I was confused at your assertion that our pop culture isn't conservative). So many pop culture touch tones in modern society glorify gun use and a lone hero fighting off some overwhelming army of evil. Military/police culture as well (which is tied to gun use) is glorified. There are, what, at LEAST a dozen network television shows that either cast the police as the primary protagonists, or the military to a lesser extent.

Hell, a general lack of care or respect for women (either by treating them as prizes to be won by male leads, shunting them into the background of stories, or turning them into bitchy obstacles to overcome) is a prominent conservative trait in pop culture.

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Guns are absolutely conservative. Not exclusively, but that's certainly the lean.

As a hyper progressive who's super pro guns, you are a complete anomaly on that front.

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don't think hes that much of anomaly, America is pretty hard right on gun control in general. Definitely a view held primarily by the right of course.

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red13n posted...

don't think hes that much of anomaly, America is pretty hard right on gun control in general. Definitely a view held primarily by the right of course.

The policy is still much further right than the public on this even if you control for that given that Republicans ignore their own voters on the issue of even the tamest gun control measures.

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

uh

Inviso posted...

Guns are very much conservative.

Literally Karl Marx and Friedreich Engels said:

Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.

Complete abolition of guns is a Liberal moderate position, *puts on red sox hat* conveniently also the group Martin Luther King Jr said were the most dangerous

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Literally Karl Marx and Friedreich Engels said:

Complete abolition of guns is a Liberal moderate position, *puts on red sox hat* conveniently also the group Martin Luther King Jr said were the most dangerous

Pretty sure it's almost all liberals, including progressives. You're just an extreme outlier when it comes to guns for some reason.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

but cultural things that dont require voting are largely not-Conservative and often anti-conservative (and I have no problem with it).

I guess I'd need examples but for social issues my thought is that the median American is liberal but not particularly progressive. I'm thinking big suburb energy here.

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xp1337 posted...

The policy is still much further right than the public on this even if you control for that given that Republicans ignore their own voters on the issue of even the tamest gun control measures.

Don't look at me, I'm pretty sure 30 years from now we'll still have the same problems, claim its a mental health issue, and still also invest nothing in mental health because we know its not really the problem.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I guess I'd need examples but for social issues my thought is that the median American is liberal but not particularly progressive. I'm thinking big suburb energy here.

I mean, I think the country has become more tolerant and AWARE of social issues, like racism/sexism/homophobia, but we ultimately don't care unless it affects us directly, because, as another conservative trait, we're very individualist instead of collectivist.

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Inviso posted...

I mean, I think the country has become more tolerant and AWARE of social issues, like racism/sexism/homophobia, but we ultimately don't care unless it affects us directly, because, as another conservative trait, we're very individualist instead of collectivist.

Yeah and in particular I'm thinking on how people SAY they're for supporting progressive causes and then turn into NIMBYs when they can see it happen near them.

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Oh, and another way we're conservative as a country. We glorify the SHIT out of rich people. Sure, there are some like Mark Zuckerburg or Elon Musk who rile people up, but we look up to the super wealthy as though they are somehow smarter as a result of having earned the money they've earned. Case in point, look at our president, whose whole brand was "look how fucking wealthy and successful I am" to the point of having a long-running television show about business. We've got shows like Undercover Boss and Shark Tank, as well as a lot of the competitive reality shows in which winners and losers are decided upon by expert judges. Even though we might dislike our personal boss, we love the concept having an authority figure judge us, under the assumption that WE will be praised for our efforts, while the undeserving will be chastised.

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btw speaking of Elon Musk being a crazy asshole.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/501891-tesla-workers-test-positive-for-covid-19-after

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Literally Karl Marx and Friedreich Engels said:

Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.

i mean, marx was kind of an outlier. he believed in some form of anarchy - the very term "communism" comes from "community," i.e. the community should rule rather than the government. i don't think it's entirely fair to point at that to go "see? the far left is totally pro-gun!"

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the left quite likes guns as well.
and the idea of small government works fine with the left as well. ask hippies.
we have a more culturally libertarian streak is the more accurate take there.

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Random thought experiment: Let's say the states somehow ended up Balkanizing into new nations broken up along political lines. Obviously the GOP would be incapable of winning legislative majorities in new nations comprised of blue states. Which scenario sounds more likely for those regions?

A) The current moderate wing of the Democratic Party works with the GOP remnants to keep the leftist wing out of power. The resulting politics are farther left than the current US system, but still to the right of other major democracies.

B) The leftist wing of the Democratic Party seizes complete control of the party. The current moderate wing is so unpopular that they can't compete even when they start their own party and absorb all the support of everyone except the leftists. The new party only becomes viable when they start picking up supporters from the left. The resulting politics ends up similar to other major democracies.

Personally, I can't see scenario B ever happening. Even in the bluest states, the (very far-right wing) Republican Party usually gets at least 30% of the vote. Unless you want to argue that virtually all Democratic voters really want Sanders/AOC types and just don't have that choice, it seems pretty clear that the US is farther right than most similar nations. Makes it pretty clear that the US is a conservative nation, doesn't it?
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Oh yeah as Inviso points out, vaguely defined yet strong support for capitalism as a system is a key aspect of US culture and is inherently conservative

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Inviso posted...

to the point of having a long-running television show about business. We've got shows like Undercover Boss and Shark Tank, as well as a lot of the competitive reality shows in which winners and losers are decided upon by expert judges.

fun fact Kevin O'Leary of Shark Tank ran in the last CPC leadership race up here beyond your northern border

... tho after he dropped out from the lack of Quebec support (he doesn't speak French), he went on to support Maxime Bernier, the extreme right anti-immigration candidate who ended up breaking off from the CPC to form an even trashier party

:|

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Guns are 100% conservative

You know what else is conservative? Slavery, which we still have in the form of our modern-day prison system. If you tried to explain this issue to most people, they would decry you for bring soft on crime.

America is conservative and Americans are conservative.

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Inviso posted...

Hell, a general lack of care or respect for women (either by treating them as prizes to be won by male leads, shunting them into the background of stories, or turning them into bitchy obstacles to overcome) is a prominent conservative trait in pop culture.

To be fair, this ties in to religion which Tony mentioned.

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in other news, bernie had an interview with an interesting answer on issue of police.

In that letter to Schumer, you got some pushback from some of your supporters for a proposal to give better resources to police departments. [The letter argued for ensuring that the resources are available to pay wages that will attract the top tier officers.] The criticism was that a lot of people in the progressive movement now are calling for defunding or abolishing the police. Do you

Do I think we should not have police departments in America? No, I dont. Theres no city in the world that does not have police departments. What you need areI didnt call for more money for police departments. I called for police departments that have well-educated, well-trained, well-paid professionals. And, too often around this country right now, you have police officers who take the job at very low payment, dont have much education, dont have much trainingand I want to change that. I also called for the transformation of police departments intounderstanding that many police departments and cops deal every day with issues of mental illness, deal with issues of addiction, and all kinds of issues which should be dealt with by mental-health professionals or others, and not just by police officers.

I think we want to redefine what police departments do, give them the support they need to make their jobs better defined. So I do believe that we need well-trained, well-educated, and well-paid professionals in police departments. Anyone who thinks that we should abolish all police departments in America, I dont agree.

way better than the current situation.
though he does sidestep the issue that yes, that would mean actually funding them more. no matter how you wanna spin it, to get what he wants there means more money.


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Gonna push back a little on the whole "the US is way to the right of Europe" here.

That's true on an economic front but as I've opined before I think an underlooked facet of this is that the US is a far more racially diverse nation than most of the counterparts it gets compared to. Things like the New Deal were passed because they were explicitly and intentionally racist and were basically designed by white people for white people. That's how they were able to get it done. There wasn't just some fever dream in the 30s where the US was momentarily "really" progressive.

The actual danger in Trump's brand of populism was that he came the closest to tying that economic populism to racial lines. He's just incompetent so it's not nearly as effective as it could be - still enough to eke out an EC win with a bunch of help but it lays out an alarming blueprint to future nationalists in the GOP to use by wedding nationalism with economic populism. This is the path may of the far-right parties in Europe have been adopting and with troubling success in some instances.

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Kinglicious posted...

though he does sidestep the issue that yes, that would mean actually funding them more. no matter how you wanna spin it, to get what he wants there means more money.

Why do you say that? Why not just restructure the massive amount of funds they currently get?
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Oh yeah as Inviso points out, vaguely defined yet strong support for capitalism as a system is a key aspect of US culture and is inherently conservative

so is complete demonization of socialism (though that has become less prominent since bernie's popularity, obviously)

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Bernie and Biden seem very similar on how they want to approach the issue

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Kinglicious posted...

in other news, bernie had an interview with an interesting answer on issue of police.

way better than the current situation.
though he does sidestep the issue that yes, that would mean actually funding them more. no matter how you wanna spin it, to get what he wants there means more money.

You have to fund them more if you want accountability and possible improvement.

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Corrik7 posted...

You have to fund them more if you want accountability and possible improvement.

You realize how awful that sounds right?
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Do I think we should not have police departments in America? No, I dont. Theres no city in the world that does not have police departments. What you need areI didnt call for more money for police departments. I called for police departments that have well-educated, well-trained, well-paid professionals. And, too often around this country right now, you have police officers who take the job at very low payment, dont have much education, dont have much trainingand I want to change that. I also called for the transformation of police departments intounderstanding that many police departments and cops deal every day with issues of mental illness, deal with issues of addiction, and all kinds of issues which should be dealt with by mental-health professionals or others, and not just by police officers.

Hey Bernie, what you're describing here is explicitly not police, who shouldn't have a say in these things at all

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Jakyl25 posted...

You realize how awful that sounds right?

No? It is common sense. If you want body cams on every cop at all times, you need funding to get it done


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Corrik7 posted...

No? It is common sense. If you want body cams on every cop at all times, you need funding to get it done

No, Im saying the fact that they even need body cams to be accountable for their actions is a poor reflection on police period.
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Like, youre the one saying the vast majority of police are good

But we need a massive investment in surveillance of their actions for them to be accountable?
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i feel like this is basically that dril tweet

salaries $50
accountability/oversight: $3
training: $7
militarization: $4000
basic equipment: $12

plz help me budget

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Spend less on militarization

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