Current Events > How more longer would WW2 have lasted?

(+) Yeah! (+)

if Hitler didn't try to invade Russia? (which led to his eventual suicide).

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Well that changes a lot in history.

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I mean, this is something that's almost impossible to theorize on any specific set of consequences. No invasion of Russia completely alters the war. Africa was treated as a secondary front by Hitler because he was preoccupied with planning and conducting operations in Russia. If he'd been willing to send even 3 or 4 more divisions and ensure an adequate supply of fuel the British get chased out of that front altogether.

There's also the fact that the majority of the German military was defeated fighting the Russians and the majority of men and material went there, and the vast majority of manufacturing operations were conducted with that in mind. With those resources not engaged in fighting Russia they could have engaged in large scale ship building operations to help choke off the UK from it's colonial resources and plane building operations to further the bombing campaign against the UK. Without assistance from abroad the UK would have been forced to surrender eventually.

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Can't see more than 10 years

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inloveanddeath0 posted...

Can't see more than 10 years

Thank you kind sir. Can we gladly see your PhD on this subject matter?

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ScazarMeltex posted...

I mean, this is something that's almost impossible to theorize on any specific set of consequences. No invasion of Russia completely alters the war. Africa was treated as a secondary front by Hitler because he was preoccupied with planning and conducting operations in Russia. If he'd been willing to send even 3 or 4 more divisions and ensure an adequate supply of fuel the British get chased out of that front altogether.

There's also the fact that the majority of the German military was defeated fighting the Russians and the majority of men and material went there, and the vast majority of manufacturing operations were conducted with that in mind. With those resources not engaged in fighting Russia they could have engaged in large scale ship building operations to help choke off the UK from it's colonial resources and plane building operations to further the bombing campaign against the UK. Without assistance from abroad the UK would have been forced to surrender eventually.

It doesn't have to be 100% accurate prediction , how much longer would you have given Germany? or would Germany had won the war eventually?

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How more longer

You wouldn't understand the answer.

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omega cookie posted...

You wouldn't understand the answer.

lol probably not , but I'm still interested.

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well i imagine USSR would have happily sat back and watched hitler starve the UK, then things would have stagnated unless hitler then went after the USSR. germany didn't really have the ability to attack the US directly, so its very likely that they'd not have bothered with europe and just curb-stomped the japanese.

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Why did Italy suck so much in ww2? Even some african countries kicked their butt

-Kush- posted...

Thank you kind sir. Can we gladly see your PhD on this subject matter?

The Nuke wasn't going to be delayed much further by Germany

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This is a vague question

Why didn't they invade Russia? What did they do instead? What plans and machinations were afoot? Did they focus more in Africa? Did they not give up on the Battle of Britain? Did they try harder to keep the US out of the war?

Did they have counter-plans for Russia invading them? Because that was inevitable. Both Russia and Germany knew that, that's why Germany attacked.

As it stood, despite the myths, attacking Russia wasn't folly.

If they didn't attack Russia, Russia would invade and defeat them.
If they attack Russia and lose, Russia would invade and defeat them.
If they attack Russia and win, they might win the war.
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The war could very realistically have gone the other way if hitler listened to his generals......

Scary thought

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US would have ended it unless Japan didn't attack regardless. It just would have been much more unsavory

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The invasion of Russia was inevitable, Stalin knew it was coming but much later than when it did....but you can see them after Poland jockeying for position, can't believe he didn't see it coming when it did, Stalin was an idiot, even the British were sending messages to the Kremlin....

But if you say this didn't happen, umm Pearl harbor still happens? When America entered the war they didn't declare war on Germany as well until Germany did for Japan as part of the triparte act as did Italy lol. But then it's just them and Britain going at it, ummmm, the war could last until the late 40s then. Once America got the bomb it'd be unleashed on Europe as well as Japan....and if Germany had a foothold on the UK they'd be destroyed there.

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The_Bitcoin posted...

Why did Italy suck so much in ww2? Even some african countries kicked their butt

With exaggeration, Italy have always sucked in all Military matters from the 19th century onwards.

Their military engagements during WW1 and WW2 are 80%+ complete failures.

Luigi Cadorna was a real life Zapp Branigan who would send forces on foot in straight lines against heavily fortied mountain defenses, then when they got mowed down by machine guns, would blame the failure on the cowardly soldiers not being loyal or determined enough.

So he would reduce rations and send them out again.... and again... 14 times in a row for 14 failures.

Their military stratergy never adapted to modern warfare and the notion that the enemy is as advanced or more advanced than you.

They would put people in positions in charge of military matters who are there as political favors for people in power. Then dress down or fire actual experts or veterans for questioning them.

It's not purely that cut and dry obviously but as a generalization compared to the UK, Germany, Japan, The US etc, Italy did not know what it was doing.
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Also the us entering the war was a huge death blow

Not that the states was an unstoppable military juggernaut, but it really fucked the reich's already limited supply chain

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KillerKhan420 posted...

The invasion of Russia was inevitable, Stalin knew it was coming but much later than when it did....but you can see them after Poland jockeying for position, can't believe he didn't see it coming when it did, Stalin was an idiot, even the British were sending messages to the Kremlin....

But if you say this didn't happen, umm Pearl harbor still happens? When America entered the war they didn't declare war on Germany as well until Germany did for Japan as part of the triparte act as did Italy lol. But then it's just them and Britain going at it, ummmm, the war could last until the late 40s then. Once America got the bomb it'd be unleashed on Europe as well as Japan....and if Germany had a foothold on the UK they'd be destroyed there.

The price they pay I guess. It's unethical thinking but bombing North Korea, China, and Vietnam night have avoided future conflict at the cost of many lives and land

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I'm no expert, but I'd have figured they had stretched themselves too thin as it was. If the Russian Front wasn't their undoing, then time would have been.

Successfully invading is one thing. Holding down nations that are resisting your occupation while you're also fighting on multiple fronts is another.

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Solid Snake07 posted...

The war could very realistically have gone the other way if hitler listened to his generals......

Scary thought

Ehh

Doubtful.

I mean history would be different sure but there was no realistic way Germany was winning that fight.

I don't have the exact quote a famous historian said something along the lines of "Germany's plans hinged on absolutely everything that could go right, going right for them and everything that could go wrong for the enemies going wrong."

Trying to take the UK was a hassle, Trying to take Africa was a hassle, Trying to protect Italy was a hassle, trying to maintain what land they did take was a hassle, supply shortages were a hassle.

Throw in the notions of the US or Russia being impossible for Germany to take... they were kind of fucked even without Hitler's incompotence.
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I'm wondering the end results if we nuked Germany (Berlin) out of spite

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Solid Snake07 posted...

The war could very realistically have gone the other way if hitler listened to his generals......

Scary thought

This. In some ways we can thank Hitler for how the war ended. Under a different German leader history might be different

The war would've still stalled in the West and Germany would've faced a more prepared and more powerful Russia, bottom line....nothing

The_Bitcoin posted...

Why did Italy suck so much in ww2? Even some african countries kicked their butt

Lacked Resources and efficient leadership


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JBaLLEN66 posted...

The war would've still stalled in the West and Germany would've faced a more prepared and more powerful Russia, bottom line....nothing

Lacked Resources and efficient leadership

Mussolini was kind of a chump too

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Ehh

Doubtful.

I mean history would be different sure but there was no realistic way Germany was winning that fight.

I don't have the exact quote a famous historian said something along the lines of "Germany's plans hinged on absolutely everything that could go right, going right for them and everything that could go wrong for the enemies going wrong."

Trying to take the UK was a hassle, Trying to take Africa was a hassle, Trying to protect Italy was a hassle, trying to maintain what land they did take was a hassle, supply shortages were a hassle.

Throw in the notions of the US or Russia being impossible for Germany to take... they were kind of fucked even without Hitler's incompotence.

It's all cold war propaganda. During the COLD WAR, Americans consulted with former nazi generals on their combat experience against the Russians because they might have had to face them in a WAR and the generals just through Hitler under the bus because the dude was dead and nobody likes to blame themselves for losing like every other loser in history. I'm sure anything from the Soviet Union was credible due to an ongoing COLD WAR

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inloveanddeath0 posted...

Mussolini was kind of a chump too

They had a decent navy, but couldn't even use it because they lacked the resources to run it and replace lost ships lol

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inloveanddeath0 posted...

I'm wondering the end results if we nuked Germany (Berlin) out of spite

Well europe would have been fucked forever.
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maybe the war ends earlier or maybe later.
in the end it wouldn't really matter.
the real reason for the non-aggression pact between the soviets and germans was signed because both countries were not ready to war with each other not an agreement to carve out poland.
the soviets were going to invade germany eventually if not for operation bararossa

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BTW while we're in this topic I want to give a shoutout to the Youtube Channels The Great War and World War Two

Which every week do a recap of what happened during the war this week.

They are great channels and the perfect starting point for anyone interested in an in depth yet pentrable examination of the war.

https://youtu.be/6FgaL0xIazk
https://youtu.be/3-A1gVm9T0A

The host is currently sick from Corona so give him some love.
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Solid Snake07 posted...

The war could very realistically have gone the other way if hitler listened to his generals......

Scary thought

unlikely.
one major reason the germans really lost the war was because of well overstretched lines. they went to deep into scorched earth soviet territory where eventually the supplies to the eastern front stagnated. contrary to belief the germans really were not fully mobilized through vehicles like they projected themselves to be in their propaganda. they heavily relied on horseback transport to move supplies.

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UnfairRepresent posted...

Ehh

Doubtful.

I mean history would be different sure but there was no realistic way Germany was winning that fight.

I don't have the exact quote a famous historian said something along the lines of "Germany's plans hinged on absolutely everything that could go right, going right for them and everything that could go wrong for the enemies going wrong."

Trying to take the UK was a hassle, Trying to take Africa was a hassle, Trying to protect Italy was a hassle, trying to maintain what land they did take was a hassle, supply shortages were a hassle.

Throw in the notions of the US or Russia being impossible for Germany to take... they were kind of fucked even without Hitler's incompotence.

There are a couple of moments where things could have gone very differently. Primarily by the Germans winning the war against Russia but the one that really sticks in my mind is Hitler not listening to Guderian in 41 about diverting the Panzer divisions of Army Group Center to assist in the liquidation of the Kiev pocket.

What it boils down to is Hitler was concerned about the speed with with German mobile formations were getting ahead of the infantry. He was also concerned about the size of the Russian forces trapped within the Kiev pocket. He ordered Guderian to take his panzer formations from where they were in army group center all the way to Kiev to assist in the assault on Kiev. Guderian argued that such a drive would already exacerbate the existing problems caused by the panzer formations being in continuous operation for months. The dire need for maintenance and refitting that was already causing breakdowns of large numbers of vehicles. Hitler overruled him, Guderian did what he was told, Kiev was taken along with a ridiculous number of prisoners, vehicles, and artillery. Then he took the tanks back up to the staging ground for the assault on Moscow. By then it was too late. They had to delay the attack to do the maintenance and refitting that Guderian had told Hitler would have to be done. That delay allowed the Russian fall rains to wreck the road network. Then the drive on Moscow began. With winter coming quickly, the effort seemed fraught with the risk of over-extending and leaving his command subject to counter-attack. He was ordered to proceed anyway. They made it to the outskirts then were forced back.

It's very likely had Hitler listened to Guderian and the other Army Group Center Generals, they could have taken Moscow and with that crippled Russia ability to fight the war. Moscow was a major center of arms production, the center of the Soviet communications system and an important transport hub, not to mention the crushing effect it would have had on Soviet morale. As it was they gave the Russians time to fortify and bring up veteran troops from Siberia to stiffen the defenses of Moscow.

EDIT: There are some interesting things on the subject Gurderian talks about in his memoirs, but the highlights of said memoirs are the really absurd shit like in 45 when everything is falling apart Hitler suggests the creation of two man anti-tank teams on Bicycles. One guy drives the bike, the other guy has a bazooka. Or during the retreat from Moscow Hitler orders Guderian's troops to stand fast, Guderian goes to Hitler's headquarters to protest. Hitler tells Guderian to just dig in and drive the enemy back with concentrated artillery fire like they did in WW1. Guderian tells him that the ground is too damn frozen to dig in. Hitler suggests using artillery shells to blast foxholes. Guderian says ok cool, but then we won't have enough for the guns to help hold the positions. Hitler screeches, throws a hissy fit, and kicks Guderian out.

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this video sums up everything
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbim2kGwhpc

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capturing moscow would have been a nice morale victory but ultimately wouldn't have changed anything.
stalin moved the majority of his military manufacturing plants across the volga.

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ScazarMeltex posted...

There are a couple of moments where things could have gone very differently. Primarily by the Germans winning the war against Russia but the one that really sticks in my mind is Hitler not listening to Guderian in 41 about diverting the Panzer divisions of Army Group Center to assist in the liquidation of the Kiev pocket.

What it boils down to is Hitler was concerned about the speed with with German mobile formations were getting ahead of the infantry. He was also concerned about the size of the Russian forces trapped within the Kiev pocket. He ordered Guderian to take his panzer formations from where they were in army group center all the way to Kiev to assist in the assault on Kiev. Guderian argued that such a drive would already exacerbate the existing problems caused by the panzer formations being in continuous operation for months. The dire need for maintenance and refitting that was already causing breakdowns of large numbers of vehicles. Hitler overruled him, Guderian did what he was told, Kiev was taken along with a ridiculous number of prisoners, vehicles, and artillery. Then he took the tanks back up to the staging ground for the assault on Moscow. By then it was too late. They had to delay the attack to do the maintenance and refitting that Guderian had told Hitler would have to be done. That delay allowed the Russian fall rains to wreck the road network. Then the drive on Moscow began. With winter coming quickly, the effort seemed fraught with the risk of over-extending and leaving his command subject to counter-attack. He was ordered to proceed anyway. They made it to the outskirts then were forced back.

It's very likely had Hitler listened to Guderian and the other Army Group Center Generals, they could have taken Moscow and with that crippled Russia ability to fight the war. Moscow was a major center of arms production, the center of the Soviet communications system and an important transport hub, not to mention the crushing effect it would have had on Soviet morale. As it was they gave the Russians time to fortify and bring up veteran troops from Siberia to stiffen the defenses of Moscow.

gotta love the science fiction

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UnfairRepresent posted...

With exaggeration, Italy have always sucked in all Military matters from the 19th century onwards.

Their military engagements during WW1 and WW2 are 80%+ complete failures.

Luigi Cadorna was a real life Zapp Branigan who would send forces on foot in straight lines against heavily fortied mountain defenses, then when they got mowed down by machine guns, would blame the failure on the cowardly soldiers not being loyal or determined enough.

So he would reduce rations and send them out again.... and again... 14 times in a row for 14 failures.

Their military stratergy never adapted to modern warfare and the notion that the enemy is as advanced or more advanced than you.

They would put people in positions in charge of military matters who are there as political favors for people in power. Then dress down or fire actual experts or veterans for questioning them.

It's not purely that cut and dry obviously but as a generalization compared to the UK, Germany, Japan, The US etc, Italy did not know what it was doing.

very interesting, thanks!

JBaLLEN66 posted...

gotta love the science fiction

? I mean, that's exactly what happened. What the results would be are pure speculation, I can only go on what I've read in books, diaries, and memoirs as to what the German generals wanted to do vs what Hitler ordered them to do.

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They should've done a covert mission and drop a few atomic bombs in germany

Taking Moscow means shit in the long run. That Napoleon guy took it but look what happened there.

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ScazarMeltex posted...

? I mean, that's exactly what happened. What the results would be are pure speculation, I can only go on what I've read in books, diaries, and memoirs as to what the German generals wanted to do vs what Hitler ordered them to do.

I mean hitler is dead at this point.. Were the generals really going to blame themselves for losing the war?

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the german war plans for lebensraum that was led by a meth addict was highly flawed from the get go. early on they beat up on neutral countries and weaker unprepared nations. they surprised the soviets early on but eventually they couldn't keep up the oil supply to run their panzer and luftwaffe divisions.

sure there were a lot of instances where hitler refused the advice of his generals but there were also a lot of generals who were just yes men and too scared to relay accurate information out of fears of being disloyal.

they were doomed to fail.

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thebatz posted...

the german war plans for lebensraum that was led by a meth addict was highly flawed from the get go. early on they beat up on neutral countries and weaker unprepared nations. they surprised the soviets early on but eventually they couldn't keep up the oil supply to run their panzer and luftwaffe divisions.

sure there were a lot of instances where hitler refused the advice of his generals but there were also a lot of generals who were just yes men and too scared to relay accurate information out of fears of being disloyal.

they were doomed to fail.

dude wait till you hear the weeaboos defend japan lol

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JBaLLEN66 posted...

I mean hitler is dead at this point.. Were the generals really going to blame themselves for losing the war?

Since a ton of their war diaries still exist and those along with the tons of communiques that were archived were used by historians in the writing of the histories i'm going to say that's not relevant at all.

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ScazarMeltex posted...

Since a ton of their war diaries still exist and those along with the tons of communiques that were archived were used by historians in the writing of the histories i'm going to say that's not relevant at all.

Yet there have been large discrepancies and disparities found in these narratives after the COLD WAR ended due to the fact the USA was fighting a COLD WAR against the SOVIETS.

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If they had not invaded Russia, they would not have been Nazis, as contempt for the Slavs and the desire to conquer them was one of the core beliefs of the Nazi system.
If they had waited until they had a functioning military and adequate supplies, they would not have been Nazis, as belief in their racial superiority prevented them from seeing their opponents as a real threat or examining the faults in their own strategies and science.
If the Germany of the late 1930s were rational instead of ruled by Nazis, they never would have started WWII, because there was absolutely no possible way they could have won.

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be glad the war ended sooner than later for germany.
any longer than, maybe cities like berlin, munich, or hamburg would have become a nuke zone.

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el_cheato posted...

If they had not invaded Russia, they would not have been Nazis, as contempt for the Slavs and the desire to conquer them was one of the core beliefs of the Nazi system.
If they had waited until they had a functioning military and adequate supplies, they would not have been Nazis, as belief in their racial superiority prevented them from seeing their opponents as a real threat or examining the faults in their own strategies and science.
If the Germany of the late 1930s were rational instead of ruled by Nazis, they never would have started WWII, because there was absolutely no possible way they could have won.

I'd sort of largely agree with that. Counterfactuals that speculate what the outcome of the war would have been if not for Operation Barbarossa are essentially asking, "If only Hitler's regime had been completely different, would things still have been the same?"

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The dynamic between the Nazis and Soviets were too opposite to each other to imagine that they wouldn't eventually fight, especially as they had a land border with the gobbling up of Poland.

Nazis had already expanded like crazy to the Balkans and were putting pressure on Turkey to join the Axis, so if they hadn't invaded the Soviets in 1941 then the Germans would've assuredly pushed hard to get Ataturk on their side and made a move on the Middle East to try to cripple the British Empire (or moved through them against their will to do so). An Axis-aligned Turkey would've been an intolerable barrier to trade via Istanbul for the Soviets alone, and even if it wasn't a major move into Iraq and likely Iran following their taking of Egypt would've further encircled the Soviets.

It probably would've lasted a while longer, but the eventuality of a German/Soviet War would've pulled the Nazis down.

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