Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 290: Wisconscionable

(+) Yeah! (+)

2014:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/446461592029630464

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https://twitter.com/joebiden/status/1248284537165152266?s=21

This isnt bait, venting, trolling, etc, I genuinely want to know the opinion of the couple of anti-M4A Biden supporters here.

Why is this ok?

Is it the fact that the economy is crashing that makes Coronavirus treatment free? Why are you ok with medical bills being one of the biggest reasons Americans file for bankruptcy? Doesnt that effect the economy?

Its a pandemic seems like a bad reason, wouldnt future pandemics be cheaper and easier to contain if everyone already has free healthcare?

Please help me understand, because it just doesnt make sense to me.

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M4a isn't getting passed but the government declaring a national emergency and paying for pandemic treatment is well within our grasp.

That is basically the difference.

(I'm not anti m4a but that is the answer)

Because young people who want M4A didn't vote in the primary, Tony. That's why it is OK.

The youth numbers still suck and that's not on anyone but the youth. The people who make the laws are either corrupt or don't care to have the fight with the people who are corrupt. It is all an optics game. It shouldn't be, but that's just the world we live in and our voter pool didn't ensure that change this time.

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The differences are practical, not moral

1. (Assuming we can keep the virus relatively contained) we can deficit spend a couple trillion dollars one time to deal with this. There are consequences to doing that, but its better than the alternative. Replacing the entire medical system is way more complicated than that, and the analogous solution (building a second redundant system on top of what already exists) is way too expensive and is not sustainable; you need to get into all of the difficult questions about how to recapture all of the existing money and not negatively impact quality of care.
2. Viruses are qualitatively different in that people not getting tested/isolated causes them to spread. If we create a financial disincentive (i.e. people avoid going to the hospital because theyre afraid of going bankrupt) more people will get it.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Because young people who want M4A didn't vote in the primary, Tony. That's why it is OK.

This doesnt really apply to my question.

Im asking Joe Biden would say Medicare for all for this one thing is required, everyone else sick and dying from other things? Uh, go hit up an exchange (when its open) and/or go into bankruptcy.

Reds answer sort of addresses it, but as far as I can tell he isnt asking or expecting Trump to sign an EO on this.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

Viruses are qualitatively different in that people not getting tested/isolated causes them to spread. If we create a financial disincentive (i.e. people avoid going to the hospital because theyre afraid of going bankrupt) more people will get it.

Yeah, this is an argument for Medical for All.

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Tony you don't understand political reality. It is an optics game like I said. There is enough obvious outcry over this situation that the democrats are like "oh yeah we can score points here."

Now of course if this actually passed it would be proof of concept on a larger scale than ever before and bring us much closer in the public eye to Medical for all, so I am all for them championing this. It's that step towards progress we should all like but you're still fighting a lost fight over here. Your question doesn't matter because the voters already said it doesn't matter.

I suspect you don't think this answers your question because you are asking the wrong question.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Tony you don't understand political reality. It is an optics game like I said. There is enough obvious outcry over this situation that the democrats are like "oh yeah we can score points here."

No dude.

In order for you to say this you have to have ignored the last 100 posts I made where Ive mentioned Trump can fucking DUNK on Dems by beating them to punch on any decent relief during this crisis.

Im not asking why, optically, Joe Biden can say this. Im asking a Joe Biden non-MFA supporter to explain the inconsistency in their beliefs, because be real, your average Biden stan would be offended as fuck if you said hes doing this for optics.

DoomTheGyarados posted...

I suspect you don't think this answers your question because you are asking the wrong question.

Youre answering the wrong one.

Youre trying to over-wonk this and flex your political crankery when Im trying to use this example to inspire reflection in the core beliefs of those against MFA.

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Trump is not going to beat them to the punch, Tony. Because Trump sucks.

Your average Biden stan isn't even paying attention to what is happening beyond 'Trump is awful, Joe is nice.'

Your average Biden stan is barely plugged into anything. Your average Biden stan is 'Bernie seems OK, but I trust Biden can beat Trump' and is 71 years old in Michigan.

This primary proved more than ever that a large majority of people don't vote on policy. So policy doesn't matter as much in terms of the voting populace and thus it doesn't matter. No mandate, it doesn't matter.

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None of what youre arguing applies to the point of my post, so Im just gonna go to bed.

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I mean, as I've mentioned before my opposition to MFA is also practical, not ideological. If I could look into the future and be guaranteed it would work as advertised I wouldn't be opposed, but I think there's huge risk in the implementation and transition that could lead to either greatly increased cost or reduction of care.

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I am not actually cranky, it's just no one cares Tony. LotM has proven over and over that he doesn't understand this so why you waste your time is beyond me.

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A lot of insurers are already waiving all fees related to coronavirus, including treatments. You can see if yours is listed below to find out what their policies are. Some of them are even waiving all fees related to telehealth.

I know insurers are still evil and all so I don't need that lecture again because I know all about their issues, but this is something they weren't forced to do (aside from looking bad by comparison to others) and even though I work in the industry, I find this shocking that so many of them are doing the right thing without being told they have to. Too bad this won't be a moment like when the Grinch's heart grew three sizes, and they create a pool to share the costs for people who arent insured.

https://www.ahip.org/health-insurance-providers-respond-to-coronavirus-covid-19/

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LordoftheMorons posted...

The differences are practical, not moral

How can you separate the morality from it all, and just look at practicality?

That seems to basically be saying: "We can't let this virus spread to the well off like me, because then it might actually effect me. But if a 12 year old is dying of cancer and her parents can't afford treatment then fuck them."

And yes, I realize you'd like a public option which would help alleviate this. But if you don't trust the government to run YOUR healthcare, why should the 12 year old's parents trust the government to run THEIRS? Because they can't afford it? And then if they get poor quality of care because of it, Too bad? And let's not forget that the health insurance industry will have a HUGE incentive to keep quality of care in Medicare for All Who Want It very low, as will the Republican Party. And because most voters won't depend on it, they won't care when the 12 year old dies because she couldn't get treatment because she'll be a statistic, and it won't even make the news.

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https://twitter.com/johnnemann/status/1248603099184259072?s=21
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RaidenGarai posted...

A lot of insurers are already waiving all fees related to coronavirus, including treatments. You can see if yours is listed below to find out what their policies are. Some of them are even waiving all fees related to telehealth.

I know insurers are still evil and all so I don't need that lecture again because I know all about their issues, but this is something they weren't forced to do (aside from looking bad by comparison to others) and even though I work in the industry, I find this shocking that so many of them are doing the right thing without being told they have to. Too bad this won't be a moment like when the Grinch's heart grew three sizes, and they create a pool to share the costs for people who arent insured.

https://www.ahip.org/health-insurance-providers-respond-to-coronavirus-covid-19/

I just want to say that the word telehealth is great
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Jakyl25 posted...

I just want to say that the word telehealth is great

Its almost as good as teledentistry!

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LordoftheMorons posted...

I mean, as I've mentioned before my opposition to MFA is also practical, not ideological. If I could look into the future and be guaranteed it would work as advertised I wouldn't be opposed, but I think there's huge risk in the implementation and transition that could lead to either greatly increased cost or reduction of care.

Nothing is guaranteed. It's why if you want a safe investment you can deposit in a savings account and get 0.1% interest. Or you can buy stocks and average 9% a year. Greater risk is required for greater reward.

Personally, I don't think there is much risk in this area, at least for purely healthcare considerations. Every other country that has tried single payer has achieved results better than what we have right now. So I think the risk is quite low.

The real risk is that people decide this means we can socialize other aspects of the economy too, and end up in USSR 2. But again, many countries have socialized healthcare without socializing everything so it's not a huge risk and we should just go for it IMO.

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https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1248619884688199682?s=21

Gotta get down on Good Friday
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https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1248590616151367686?s=21

Hooray for corporate socialism!
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https://twitter.com/AlexBerenson/status/1248640413835108355

follow this guy, he's the best and most reasonable skeptic by far

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SmartMuffin posted...

follow this guy, he's the best and most reasonable skeptic by far

even better and more reasonable than you?

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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1248590616151367686?s=21

Hooray for corporate socialism!

Is the US at least getting an equity position in the airlines? I don't see why the country should pay more than the going market price.

President Trump, as you know, President Obama completely failed to fix the problem of "too big to fail" or corporate socialism. He did absolutely nothing for 8 years on this issue even though everyone knew it was one of the most important issues facing our country. This is your opportunity to rectify his mistakes.

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more like have to SAVE the airlines m I rite

oh this isn't the stock topic

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https://twitter.com/phillyTRU/status/1248656214642262016

our essential heroes out there protecting public safety

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https://twitter.com/isaacdovere/status/1248398635093487622?s=21

Theyre all the same right?
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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/isaacdovere/status/1248398635093487622?s=21

Theyre all the same right?

I'm pretty sure Trump crushes Biden if they were the candidates for the next president of China, with Chinese citizens voting. Not sure if he wins if only Chinese-Americans are allowed to vote. So I guess no, not the same.

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do the bernie people really think that our country is "fucked" just because we didnt pick your specific little candidate? my facebook is littered with people who have been acting like a comet just hit the planet for the past few days since that boy dropped out

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iiaattgg posted...

do the bernie people really think that our country is "fucked" just because we didnt pick your specific little candidate? my facebook is littered with people who have been acting like a comet just hit the planet for the past few days since that boy dropped out

Yeah, they are mad. My cousin is in a fit of rage. Unequivocally refuses to vote for Biden.

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iiaattgg posted...

do the bernie people really think that our country is "fucked" just because we didnt pick your specific little candidate? my facebook is littered with people who have been acting like a comet just hit the planet for the past few days since that boy dropped out

They cant see that our country would be fucked even with Bernie

Naive optimists
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Corrik7 posted...

Yeah, they are mad. My cousin is in a fit of rage. Unequivocally refuses to vote for Biden.

Is he gonna vote for Trump or just not vote?
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iiaattgg posted...

do the bernie people really think that our country is "fucked" just because we didnt pick your specific little candidate? my facebook is littered with people who have been acting like a comet just hit the planet for the past few days since that boy dropped out

no theyre lying

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Jakyl25 posted...

Is he gonna vote for Trump or just not vote?

Voted third party in 2016. Likely not vote or 3rd party this time also.

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https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/10/politics/trump-tax-returns-treasury-watchdog-report/index.html

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Corrik7 posted...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/10/politics/trump-tax-returns-treasury-watchdog-report/index.html

but that's cnn so it must be a lie

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Corrik7 posted...

Yeah, they are mad. My cousin is in a fit of rage. Unequivocally refuses to vote for Biden.

i can understand being upset or thinking "i truly believe that out country will be worse off because of the election" but the amount of people who seem to firmly believe that the united states is just going to literally die because of this is absurd

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iiaattgg posted...

i can understand being upset or thinking "i truly believe that out country will be worse off because of the election" but the amount of people who seem to firmly believe that the united states is just going to literally die because of this is absurd

He doesn't believe the country will die. He believes the Democrats losing elections will further move it further and further left until the party is where his ideals lie. And that electing a centrist democrat would damage the leftward movement massively.

Also, that it was a rigged election against Bernie by the establishment.

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Trump declared the coronavirus to be "genius" today. I guess that waters down his claim to being a "stable genius" a lot.

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red sox 777 posted...

Trump declared the coronavirus to be "genius" today. I guess that waters down his claim to being a "stable genius" a lot.

This is just setting up for when he declares that he's defeated the coronavirus because he's an even bigger genius.

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Jakyl25 posted...

They cant see that our country would be fucked even with Bernie

Naive optimists

It would be MUCH more fucked with Bernie

iiaattgg posted...

i can understand being upset or thinking "i truly believe that out country will be worse off because of the election" but the amount of people who seem to firmly believe that the united states is just going to literally die because of this is absurd

Were you not here 4 years ago when the same people thought trump was going to just immediately start firing random nukes?

iiaattgg posted...

do the bernie people really think that our country is "f***ed"

wait do you not?

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SavageInTheBox posted...

It would be MUCH more fucked with Bernie

oh wow I hadnt considered that

i guess we really dodged a bullet

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Corrik7 posted...

He doesn't believe the country will die. He believes the Democrats losing elections will further move it further and further left until the party is where his ideals lie

So he wants the party to die?
Because that would just result in them becoming an irrelevant party.

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I think most of us want the Democratic Party to die

We just need the Republican Party to die alongside it
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Corrik7 posted...

He doesn't believe the country will die. He believes the Democrats losing elections will further move it further and further left until the party is where his ideals lie. And that electing a centrist democrat would damage the leftward movement massively.

Wait so is he worried that Biden will beat Trump? Like thats his worst case scenario?

Because if he wants the party to move further left via centrists losing in the general, Biden winning the nomination seems like his dream
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Jakyl25 posted...

Wait so is he worried that Biden will beat Trump? Like thats his worst case scenario?

Because if he wants the party to move further left via centrists losing in the general, Biden winning the nomination seems like his dream

That's my worst case scenario also. I'll take Bernie or Trump. Both will protect us from Hillary and Biden and those people.

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https://twitter.com/aoc/status/1248723786154872837?s=21
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Jakyl25 posted...

https://twitter.com/aoc/status/1248723786154872837?s=21

So AOC really is a Marxist? Late stage capitalism?

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