Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 290: Wisconscionable

(+) Yeah! (+)

Samurai7 posted...

Yeah Black Turtle! If even one STEM person is an idiot obviously your point has no merit! Never mind the fact that it's not related to your argument at all!

Oh, sorry! I didn't realize that philosophy was 'talking about the earth being flat'. My bad!

Also Ben Carson by Black Turtle's logic is 'Smart' because he's one of the top neurosurgeons in the world. How wondrous we have such people in the world. We need more like him! Who are top of their field and lack basic knowledge that isn't required in their field. Because as we all know, the only knowledge that's valuable is the knowledge that you use to make money!

---

Samurai7 posted...

Yeah Black Turtle! If even one STEM person is an idiot obviously your point has no merit! Never mind the fact that it's not related to your argument at all!

pretty sure black turtle's "all philosophy majors are idiots who never say something worthwhile" point has no merit regardless of dancedreamer's post.

---

... how has anyone actually backed up BT here wtf

---

Samurai7 posted...

Yeah Black Turtle! If even one STEM person is an idiot obviously your point has no merit! Never mind the fact that it's not related to your argument at all!

So you're okay with Black Turtle's "no philosophy or english lit major has ever said anything worthwhile" post, but somehow this is where you draw the line and need to comment?

---

It's really weird to use a neurosurgeon who made multiple firsts in the field, was given the highest award possible for a civilian, and who was legitimately THE doctor in his field as an example of... Someone not smart.

Ben Carson is a bonafide genius, trying to use him as an anti-STEM argument is laughable considering he's one of the most praised doctors of modern times and his contributions have helped millions of people. Like yes, he's not the guy you want in politics, his brain's not wired for that. Doesn't mean he's not smart all of a sudden, just means it's not his field.

---

I think the point was that, while STEM degrees can make a person extremely smart in their given field, it doesn't necessarily make them an all-around genius, and they're still capable of believing extremely stupid things.

---

Nope. And all your replies to my post prove my point. What you're arguing against isn't what I said. I think BlackTurtle is wrong that we shouldn't fund arts at all, but my god so many people in these topics just attack everything someone says when they disagree with them. DanceDreamer made a strawman argument. BlackTurtle never said every single STEM student is a genius. That's the only point I made. Then I get dogpiled in the same fashion, for an argument I didn't even posture. Just because I disagree with BlackTurtle premise doesn't mean I should argue like an idiot. And just because I don't use stupid points to try to and argue BlackTurtle down doesn't mean everyone else should assume I'm on his side. This type of discourse is pathetic.

---

Right. Smart in one thing doesn't mean smart in everything. That's the entire point, wang.

---

Samurai7 posted...

Nope. And all your replies to my post prove my point. What you're arguing against isn't what I said. I think BlackTurtle is wrong that we shouldn't fund arts at all, but my god so many people in these topics just attack everything someone says when they disagree with them. DanceDreamer made a strawman argument. BlackTurtle never said every single STEM student is a genius. That's the only point I made. Then I get dogpiled in the same fashion, for an argument I didn't even posture. Just because I disagree with BlackTurtle premise doesn't mean I should argue like an idiot. And just because I don't use stupid points to try to and argue BlackTurtle down doesn't mean everyone else should assume I'm on his side. This type of discourse is pathetic.

Get them, Samurai7!

---

My argument wasn't that people in STEM are stupid -- I would never argue that. We need more people in STEM, especially more women. My argument is that knowledge outside your area of expertise still has value to it. Even if its not monetary value.

If you look at Ben Carson, you don't really see someone who's actually SMART. Yeah, he's a genius in his field. No doubt. But throw him into any other subject, and he confuses R.E.O's with OREO's. (And somehow that's exactly where we put him...)

People have this tendency to look down on people who have degrees outside of 'acceptable' choices. But we need well rounded individuals, especially if we want to make democracy work.

---

Samurai7 posted...

Nope. And all your replies to my post prove my point. What you're arguing against isn't what I said. I think BlackTurtle is wrong that we shouldn't fund arts at all, but my god so many people in these topics just attack everything someone says when they disagree with them. DanceDreamer made a strawman argument. BlackTurtle never said every single STEM student is a genius. That's the only point I made. Then I get dogpiled in the same fashion, for an argument I didn't even posture. Just because I disagree with BlackTurtle premise doesn't mean I should argue like an idiot. And just because I don't use stupid points to try to and argue BlackTurtle down doesn't mean everyone else should assume I'm on his side. This type of discourse is pathetic.

The fact is you felt the need to point out somebody's argument as stupid, while ignoring the initial argument that was stupid. That's obviously going to make people think you're agreeing with the person you are defending. That you felt strongly enough to argue the stupid reply but NOT the stupid argument is going to lead to an assumption that is not at all unreasonable.

---

Samurai7 posted...

Nope. And all your replies to my post prove my point. What you're arguing against isn't what I said. I think BlackTurtle is wrong that we shouldn't fund arts at all, but my god so many people in these topics just attack everything someone says when they disagree with them. DanceDreamer made a strawman argument. BlackTurtle never said every single STEM student is a genius.

No, he just said that philosophy majors just argue about what someone said 2000 years ago about the earth being flat. Which is apparently, to him, their only value. (Oddly enough, Plato -- who was around more than 2000 years ago -- argued the earth was a Sphere. In fact Greek Philosophers were among the first to speculate the earth was round.)


---

these literally never get old

https://twitter.com/stone_toss/status/1248269676150472705

---

Dancedreamer posted...

If you look at Ben Carson, you don't really see someone who's actually SMART. Yeah, he's a genius in his field. No doubt. But throw him into any other subject, and he confuses R.E.O's with OREO's. (And somehow that's exactly where we put him...)

No he's just a SMART guy. My objection here is the specific example chosen. What are all the fields he's good at? We've got neuroscience, surgery, writing, what else? He managed to be the youngest to reach his position early on, I'm sure you can find other forms of intelligence in that. Politics? Not that bad at it, though I don't want him there. He came up through politics off a good speech, he managed to get into a position he's completely unqualified for, and he did it without making any public enemies.

That's pretty SMART.

On the more general point, Nobody said every STEM person is gonna be smart in every field, that's all you there. You can be plenty smart without a college degree too, nobody is saying Einstein wasn't. This doesn't mean BT is right on everything he said, it just means you aren't either.

---

Kinglicious posted...

That's pretty SMART.

Not really. He has connections. There's a difference. A lot of unqualified people get their positions due to knowing the right people.

---

Ah yes, the loose "connections."
Ignoring that being able to make new connections is a sign of intelligence, ignoring that the chain of how he got there was as a direct result of a speech he gave.

I don't get what's so hard about saying Ben Carson is a smart guy. He is. One look at his accomplishments makes that so obviously clear that the only thing you're left with is that you just really don't like the guy.

---

Kinglicious posted...

Ah yes, the loose "connections."
Ignoring that being able to make new connections is a sign of intelligence, ignoring that the chain of how he got there was as a direct result of a speech he gave.

I don't get what's so hard about saying Ben Carson is a smart guy. He is. One look at his accomplishments makes that so obviously clear that the only thing you're left with is that you just really don't like the guy.

Nobody is saying he's not smart. But smart people can still be wildly stupid about things outside of their field of expertise. Look at all the smart people who are anti-vaxxers.

---

Inviso posted...

Nobody is saying he's not smart

...

Dancedreamer posted...

If you look at Ben Carson, you don't really see someone who's actually SMART.

?

---

Accomplishments does not make one smart. Donald Trump rose to the Presidency, and I would not say that he is smart. Contrary to your strawman, it is not because I dislike him. There are plenty of people who I dislike and disagree on many things, and still think they are smart.

You can be very smart in one area, but that does not make you smart overall. In fact it's pretty easy to be smart in one specific area, because you can focus on one area. You just need a decent memory.

---

Your entire argument is a strawman, you've no place to complain on that. And for the record, mine isn't: it's a straight up objection to your example and an explicit statement saying the only argument you've got for Ben Carson not being smart is your dislike of him.

---

No, it's not my dislike of him.

There's the fact that he denies climate science. The fact that he thinks pyramids were grain silos. The fact that he called slaves immigrants that were just pursuing their dreams. The fact he denies the theory of evolution. The fact that he says if you accept evolution, you deny ethics. Should I go on?

---

Dancedreamer posted...

You can be very smart in one area, but that does not make you smart overall. In fact it's pretty easy to be smart in one specific area, because you can focus on one area. You just need a decent memory.

Well it's a good thing you've clearly gone through the 60 doctorates he's been given, best sellers, and 100+ publications as just "one area."

Do you just not know how people rise through ranks? That it's not just one form of intelligence being shown but multiple ones?

---

gotta protect the elites claim to greatness

---

Dancedreamer posted...

No, it's not my dislike of him.

There's the fact that he denies climate science. The fact that he thinks pyramids were grain silos. The fact that he called slaves immigrants that were just pursuing their dreams. The fact he denies the theory of evolution. The fact that he says if you accept evolution, you deny ethics. Should I go on?

There are plenty of smart people who have dumb ideas. If you're gonna see whether or not he's smart, you can judge him by intelligence, which is easiest done through accomplishments and accolades. Those don't tell everything obviously but it's a solid starting point. Here? The man's a rags to riches story who blew past everyone in one of his fields by his mid 30s and it goes from there.

---

Just to confirm, this whole spat is because Dancedreamer is saying intelligent != smart and Wang is saying intelligent = smart right?

---

Man, anyone who has played D&D knows that Wisdom and Intelligence are two different stats.

---

I'd accept wisdom as a sign of being smart too.

JeffreyRaze posted...

Just to confirm, this whole spat is because Dancedreamer is saying intelligent != smart and Wang is saying intelligent = smart right?

Smart can be from many things, intelligence is just one factor. If we're talking STEM, it's especially the factor being looked at


---

Kinglicious posted...

If you're gonna see whether or not he's smart, you can judge him by intelligence, which is easiest done through accomplishments and accolades.

uh you can accomplish a lot without being intelligent, as dancedreamer already pointed out


---

Can we just agree that Donald Trump is way smarter than liberals? He lifts a finger and millions of liberals take to the streets in fury, and this happens over and over and over.

---

I think it's pretty clear that an absolute genius who thinks those things is in fact a total moron.

Mr Lasastryke posted...

uh you can accomplish a lot without being intelligent, as dancedreamer already pointed out

No, the things he pointed out had nothing to do with intelligence. They involve knowledge of facts, but not intelligence.

---

red sox 777 posted...

Can we just agree that Donald Trump is way smarter than liberals? He lifts a finger and millions of liberals take to the streets in fury, and this happens over and over and over.

He's a lot smarter than people give him credit.
In both parties.

---

Kinglicious posted...

He's a lot smarter than people give him credit.
In both parties.

But less smart than he credits himself
---

Jakyl25 posted...

But less smart than he credits himself

Only if you take his claims literally. Which I think a smart person should not do.

---

oh absolutely.
especially now that he's older and has very clearly gotten worse.

on INT/WIS, i'll expand a bit on what i said though. thinking it as...
high intelligence/low wisdom - you're smart but you're prone to saying stupid shit.
high wisdom/low intelligence - you sound smart but you're actually stupid.

so a person who's pretty wise at least will be a sign of being smart, just not necessarily.


---

Wanglicious posted...

on INT/WIS, i'll expand a bit on what i said though. thinking it as...
high intelligence/low wisdom - you're smart but you're prone to saying stupid shit.
high wisdom/low intelligence - you sound smart but you're actually stupid.

I think real world examples of these min/maxed D&D stats would be a nerdy ivy league graduate who doesnt understand how the world really works (+INT - WIS), and a mystic spiritual guru who ignores logic and science becasue he doesn't 'feel' it (+WIS - INT)

---

I'll tell you one thing for free.

Reading this conversation made me less SMART.

---

SmartMuffin posted...

these literally never get old

https://twitter.com/stone_toss/status/1248269676150472705

Please stop posting comics made by a literal white supremacist

---

Please stop posting comics made by a literal white supremacist

No.

---

We'd settle for you just stopping being a white supremacist.

---

Don't tell Smuffin he can't express his culture.

Can we please have SephG back in Smuffin's place? His posts are 1000 times more interesting.

---

take it up with Allen

smartmuffin manages to not get himself banned all the time so here he is

---

MoogleKupo141 posted...

take it up with Allen

smartmuffin manages to not get himself banned all the time so here he is

ever since Ulti flipped from commie to conservative I am BULLETPROOF

---

---

https://twitter.com/breaking911/status/1248386014797656064?s=21

Anyone know when this is from?

Did Trump really just cancel 6 months of student debt?

---

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/breaking911/status/1248386014797656064?s=21

Anyone know when this is from?

Did Trump really just cancel 6 months of student debt?

No, part of the CARES act lets you defer payment on federal student loans for up to six months without interest. No debt is being cancelled:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/2-trillion-coronavirus-stimulus-bill-gives-student-loan-borrowers-six-months-of-relief-2020-03-26

---

yeah, any federal student loans are automatically in forbearance until September 30th with a 0% interest rate

---

Yeah, this is Trump trying to take credit for the Phase 3 Bill/CARES Act. His original order before Phase 3/CARES allowed you to postpone for 2 months and set interest to 0 for 2 months but choosing to postpone your payments meant they did not count towards the public service loan forgiveness program (which requires 120 on-time monthly payments.) CARES addressed that loophole alongside making it 6 months and made the suspension of payments automatic such that those six months do count towards the program.

If you want actual student debt cancellation news, Biden just came out for student debt cancellation for low and middle income earners. Though it would appear to be for public college undergrad mainly so far I think but it's still in the planning stage.

---

Thats good, his and it may be longer made me think he really was gonna run with it, which would be awesome for people but a disaster for Dems.

---