Board 8 > If you use rewind/save state to finish a game, did you beat it?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Drakeryn posted...

huh, okay

I feel like a lot of posts in this topic were "Yes they did beat the game, and you should stop gatekeeping aka having the wrong opinion"

(but I was wrong about SEP's view so I could be wrong about the others too)

There probably were some replies that were overly reductive to this point; youre right.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Have you heard of the Paradox of Tolerance?

okay. firstly.

give this tweet a serious look

Retweet if you agree: If you use the rewind feature thats now standard on many NES and SNES games available on Switch, you DID NOT by any stretch of the imagination beat the god damn game.

can you HONESTLY tell me that this counts as behavior you absolutely CANNOT tolerate? I think you guys are being VERY dramatic here.

secondly,

what I'm talking about is not tolerance. because I actually believe that my stance -- against allowing social groups and especially celebrity opinions to decide the subjective value of categorical definitions which should only apply to individuals -- is actually important enough to argue against, so clearly the issue here is not that I'm being too tolerant. it's that I'm challenging behavior that you find acceptable.

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MariaTaylor posted...

can you HONESTLY tell me that this counts as behavior you absolutely CANNOT tolerate?

Yes

MariaTaylor posted...

against allowing social groups and especially celebrity opinions to decide the subjective value of categorical definitions which should only apply to individuals

Thats a fine stance to have, but its naive to think that its a problem you can ignore and itll go away, ironically despite that actually literally being how it could go away If everyone did that

I think the more effective approach is to be proactive about shutting down harmful gatekeeping, even if it means acknowledging someones outsized influence in the interim.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Yes

okay. then.

in this topic, people have been more sarcastic, dismissive, elitist, and disrespectful toward me than mike matei was in that tweet. so I guess by your own logic their behavior cannot be tolerated either... and you should actually be defending me!

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Jakyl25 posted...

Thats a fine stance to have, but its naive to think that its a problem you can ignore and itll go away, ironically despite that actually literally being how it could go away If everyone did that

I think the more effective approach is to be proactive about shutting down harmful gatekeeping, even if it means acknowledging someones outsized influence in the interim.

what you're describing is exactly the "forming social groups" part of what I've described, which is exactly one of the two things that I have said I am against!

if you believe this is the most "effective" approach, and you believe taking an "effective" approach has more merit than other qualifiers (the most "moral" approach, the most "accurate" approach, the "least harmful" approach) then that's how you're going to behave. in fact, this is a common social tactic on board 8 in particular.

but also understand, as someone who is against this, I'm obviously going to... be against it.

that's why discussions like this arise!

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MariaTaylor posted...

Retweet if you agree: If you use the rewind feature thats now standard on many NES and SNES games available on Switch, you DID NOT by any stretch of the imagination beat the god damn game.

It's been said various times that this is somehow intolerant behavior. I don't really see anything like "If you rewind you're stupid", or "the police should pay a visit to these people and take away their games". He even started with "if you agree"!

People ITT been overly dramatic sounds about right.

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MariaTaylor posted...

okay. then.

in this topic, people have been more sarcastic, dismissive, elitist, and disrespectful toward me than mike matei was in that tweet. so I guess by your own logic their behavior cannot be tolerated either... and you should actually be defending me!

I kind of am! Im trying to let cooler heads prevail and examine why things got so nasty in such a way that only causes harm
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I fully admit I've been sarcastic, dismissive, disrespectful, etc. and so on. I've never once hidden that I become an asshole in arguments when somebody is being an asshole to me.

The issue is that instead of letting me try to explain my stance, you decided from the very beginning that you were correct, instantly becoming dismissive of me and putting words in my mouth that hadn't been said. You did the exact same thing again even when Jakyl tried to clarify the argument.

So, yes, I reacted how I did, and it was wrong. I never claimed I couldn't be provoked into being an asshole, and I never claimed I'm even a good example of what I was arguing. Doesn't make my argument invalid. If a smoker tells you smoking is bad, you shouldn't dismiss them just because they smoke.

You interpreted my argument wrong, didn't want to budge from that interpretation, and the argument took a bad turn. For that, I apologize. I was wrong to act the way I did. I'm not perfect.

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I certainly am not blameless in that regard either, as any Politics Topic regular can attest to. Im not saying Im not a hypocrite
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Also SEP it was very funny seeing you try to leave the topic again and again only to keep coming back for more
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Jakyl25 posted...

Also SEP it was very funny seeing you try to leave the topic again and again only to keep coming back for more

I do that too much already because I'm typically on here to waste time to begin with. This time was especially like... I was gonna leave, then he was like "Yeah all you can do is run away" so it was like... Welp, now I'm staying.

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Jakyl25 posted...

I kind of am! Im trying to let cooler heads prevail and examine why things got so nasty in such a way that only causes harm

this is actually true, and a very fair point to make.

StealThisSheen posted...

I fully admit I've been sarcastic, dismissive, disrespectful, etc. and so on. I've never once hidden that I become an asshole in arguments when somebody is being an asshole to me.

The issue is that instead of letting me try to explain my stance, you decided from the very beginning that you were correct, instantly becoming dismissive of me and putting words in my mouth that hadn't been said. You did the exact same thing again even when Jakyl tried to clarify the argument.

So, yes, I reacted how I did, and it was wrong. I never claimed I couldn't be provoked into being an asshole, and I never claimed I'm even a good example of what I was arguing. Doesn't make my argument invalid. If a smoker tells you smoking is bad, you shouldn't dismiss them just because they smoke.

You interpreted my argument wrong, didn't want to budge from that interpretation, and the argument took a bad turn. For that, I apologize. I was wrong to act the way I did. I'm not perfect.

cool, thanks! obviously a nice way to bookend this discussion would be a return apology, but sadly I don't feel this is a situation where I can honestly apologize. I can't sincerely say that I feel like I've done anything wrong.

I do think the situation is still a bit more complicated than what you've outlined above, but at this point it's not worth pressing the issue really. you guys still aren't quite understanding my argument, but... eh. there's not much to be done about that. my way of thinking is very complicated, and difficult to understand. not really in the 'oh I am so intelligent you aren't smart enough to get it' way, but just in the sense that I think very differently, and act very differently than other people. it's not a way of thinking that most people are used to comprehending, and this makes it very esoteric.

much like the psychological version of the uncanny valley. I don't quite behave how a human should behave, but I'm close enough that it disturbs people to see me not acting how I should.

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lordjers posted...

It's been said various times that this is somehow intolerant behavior. I don't really see anything like "If you rewind you're stupid", or "the police should pay a visit to these people and take away their games". He even started with "if you agree"!

People ITT been overly dramatic sounds about right.

Well, that would be an overly dramatic take that no one here has made. My problem is that it comes across as trying to invalidate the experiences of people who do things differently than you (and with strong language like "you by no stretch of the imagination beat the game" it leaves little room for debate on his end), which isn't necessarily great behavior.

But I've also repeatedly said that I don't really care if you think I've beaten a game or not because I usually don't brag about beating one. I don't get my sense of ego from it. When I was a kid, I used a Game Genie several times to help me beat hard games (like Maximum Carnage). Would I mention that on the front end when discussing the game? Maybe, maybe not. I don't think it's that important. Would I hide it if someone asked me point blank? No.

Also, when I was a kid, I was playing Michael Jordan's Chaos in the Windy City (yeah, yeah, I know), and I was messing around with the password system just for fun one time. By complete chance, I entered a password that put me at the next to last level. If I beat the game from there, does that count as "beating" the game?

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^ I don't think he's trying to invalidate their "victory" and more so saying he would not see it as such within his own criteria, and was looking for those who agreed with him.

He sees himself as the dude at the wine tasting going through all the bougie motions, and people who state save/rewind as people guzzling the bottle without trying to taste it or appreciate it. Neither are wrong ways to operate, but he doesn't value the latter.

Also wow this blew up overnight. I must say the irony and hypocrisy of those (in this topic and on Twitter) responding with "Who Cares?!" is at an all time high. The mere fact that you responded at all shows you care! If you truly didn't care about a discussion such as this you wouldn't take part. The hardcore anti-gate keeping brigade is starting to become guilty of that which they fight, and are now gate keeping anyone who thinks differently from them.

Set your own criteria, value what you value, and if you truly don't care what anyone thinks that's great! Then ignore this entire issue. If you care to have a discussion (and are open to actually being wrong, that goes for both sides) then stick around and let your voice be heard. Just don't be an anus about it.

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The whole "if you actually don't care you wouldn't respond!" argument is dumb. I don't necessarily have to be personally invested or offended to have an opinion. I mean, sure if you want to be completely literal, I guess you could say I "care" enough to post about it, but not because I personally feel "under attack" or feel the need to discredit Mike Matei. I just don't like the way he phrases his opinion because it doesn't come across as a guy looking for his own personal validation but rather the opposite.

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Leonhart4 posted...

The whole "if you actually don't care you wouldn't respond!" argument is dumb. I don't necessarily have to be personally invested or offended to have an opinion. I mean, sure if you want to be completely literal, I guess you could say I "care" enough to post about it, but not because I personally feel "under attack" or feel the need to discredit Mike Matei. I just don't like the way he phrases his opinion because it doesn't come across as a guy looking for his own personal validation but rather the opposite.

It's really not. You are a gamer, and you saw a gaming related post and wanted to voice your opinion. That is caring. If it was something that totally had nothing to do with your interests, you would completely ignore it. That is not caring.

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All right, man. If you say so. There are things I care about that I don't talk about around here, too, but sure.

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NFUN posted...

Yes what kind of stupid fucking question is that

No idea why there are nearly 300 posts after this one and I will never read any of them.
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Then you must not care about them enough in those particular instances to say something.

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wg64Z posted...

Then you must not care about them enough in those particular instances to say something.

Good talk

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Steiner posted...

No idea why there are nearly 300 posts after this one and I will never read any of them.

You should read this one.

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I just want to say as someone who probably uses rewind, save states, and even blatant cheating more than probably anyone on this board (unless shine is secretly just hacking trophies), that I don't really care if people consider it beating a game or not. Like I'll colloquially say I've beaten game X and discuss aspects of it but I know I have forfeited the right to talk about the difficulty and most gameplay aspects if I cheated in a game. If someone wants to say I didn't beat the game, that's cool. I don't necessarily consider myself as beating a game that way either, honestly. As long as I have fun is all that matters to me even if other people think it's dumb. I couldn't possibly care less what literally some shitty bugs bunny impersonator thinks of what I do with my life.
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I think my thing is that I do care what Matei has to say because he has a large platform to do so. Like, I don't care how he feels personally, but I do care that he's using his platform to belittle people who use accessibility options. If you read comments he makes past his initial tweet, you can see he's bashing people for using the accessibility beyond some faux confirmation of whether the game is being beaten. He actively attacks the existence of these features despite some gamers literally being incapable of playing without them, and that's not really a fair way to view them. Ultimately he views their existence at a surface level and bases his argument on what only he understands and that is a pretty poor way of using a platform.

Fwiw I'm well aware my initial posts weren't productive and I should be better than that

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I'm on the fence. Ultimately, you are still learning things you didn't know before that enable you to beat something, it just goes by a lot faster. If I'm playing dark souls, and I die to a boss, it doesn't matter whether I take 10 minutes or 10 seconds to get back to that boss, I hopefully learned its pattern a little better than I did the previous time, which gives me a better chance to beat it next time. It's not actively lowering the difficulty of the part in question.

On the other hand, bypassing a game's natural checkpoint progression (if there is one) means that you're playing outside of the rules the game has laid out. Going back to dark souls as an example, they expect you to have to restart from a bonfire every time you die. So by rewinding back to a difficult part rather than having to play through the portion of the level the game expects you to, it does feel a bit cheap.

Ultimately though, Zea's point reigns supreme. People play games to have fun, let them do what's fun. If I were to be playing dark souls with a rewind feature and I finally beat a boss it took me 50 tries to do (cough fume knight cough) I don't think my first reaction would be some sort of hollow victory feeling like I didn't earn it, it would be **** YEAH TAKE THAT I WON. And that feels good.

Also, the way the person in the tweet is making is point, he's being a jerk about it. HOW DARE YOU CALL YOURSELF A GAMER YOU FRAUDS. Like chill, dude. You can make a take without acting so...superior.
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NFUN posted...

No what kind of stupid fucking question is that

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Can you really say you beat Mario 1 if you just warped straight to the end?

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Leonhart4 posted...

Can you really say you beat Mario 1 if you just warped straight to the end?

Did you find them or look them up?

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Oh, are we moving the goalposts to include guides now?

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Can you really say you beat Mario if you lost a single life? Really if you don't beat the game on your first try ever you should have to destroy it and live the rest of your days in...shame.
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Leonhart4 posted...

Oh, are we moving the flagpoles to include guides now?

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I beat mario world without any powerups and it was the most fun I've had with that game in a long time true story.


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You didn't really beat a game if you didn't beat it blindfolded while only using your feet
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Leonhart4 posted...

Well, that would be an overly dramatic take that no one here has made.

Yes it has? His statement is somehow considered an attack that must be defended and this topic has gone long enough in part cause of it.

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Guides are kinda interesting

Obviously guides are cool in like 90%+ of situations

But there are a few fringe situations, like a puzzle game where you can directly look up all the solutions. Or an old-school game with level passwords, so you could just look it up and hop right to the final level.
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lordjers posted...

His statement is somehow considered an attack that must be defended

"if you used rewind YOU DIDN'T BEAT THE GODDAMN GAME BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION"

geez i have no idea why some people would interpret this as an attack

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

"if you used rewind YOU DIDN'T BEAT THE GODDAMN GAME BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION"

geez i have no idea why some people would interpret this as an attack

At first I was like "you're goddamned right!" but then I realized you're most likely been sarcastic so ok =/

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His statement absolutely was an attack
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pjbasis posted...

I beat mario world without any powerups and it was the most fun I've had with that game in a long time true story.

I mean I've beaten the Mario games without skipping any levels, and it's a lot of fun seeing what the whole game looks like.

Unfortunately, I did it on the GBA version of Mario 3 which has a save feature so I didn't really beat it.

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I'm not gonna read this thread, but, there's two things to consider here.

1) The answer is no.

2) It could hardly matter any less because it's a pretty arbitrary and meaningless categorization.

Leonhart4 posted...

Can you really say you beat Mario 1 if you just warped straight to the end?

It's allowed by the game itself so yes. However as a kid it still felt like cheating. Still, beating it without warps actually lets you experience the whole game.

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lordjers posted...

Yes it has? His statement is somehow considered an attack that must be defended and this topic has gone long enough in part cause of it.

yeah this response confused me. I specifically asked Jakyl if Mike's tweet was behavior that cannot be tolerated. Jakyl responded "yes." and Leon is saying that no one is making the take that Mike's tweet is behavior that cannot be tolerated.

apparently Jakyl is no one to him?

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The irony of this topic is the people bashing Matei's stance are coming off as the less tolerant people here.

Like vehemently insisting using save states and rewind is "beating the game" is pretty much the exact same thing as vehemently insisting it isn't. But the group supporting the former has some sorta moral high ground about it because "elitism ka fooey"

Ultimately it's just gonna come down to the person-- you caring about being 'objectively right' is the problem not which side of the spectrum you're on.

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Lopen posted...

Like vehemently insisting using save states and rewind is "beating the game" is pretty much the exact same thing as vehemently insisting it isn't. But the group supporting the former has some sorta moral high ground about it because "elitism ka fooey"

Did you miss the last day of this topic?
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Also particularly worth noting, attack against who? People who don't supposedly care if they legit beat the game or not as long as they have fun?

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lordjers posted...

Also particularly worth noting, attack against who? People who don't supposedly care if they legit beat the game or not as long as they have fun?

Attack against people who want to be included in the gaming community by gatekeeping who the real gamers are.

Yes this take in a vacuum does not go that far, but its part of the same mindset that says youre not a real gamer if you only play mobile games or only play on Easy or dont play Dark Souls or what have you.
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Also for the record I've been doing this way before Switch

You beat Devil May Cry 3 Special Edition on gold mode you didn't really beat the game in my eyes because you're robbing yourself a lot of the originally intended experience by doing so

But I'm not gonna argue about it, just scoff and encourage you to play the game in Yellow Mode so you can get the full experience.

And you know what, guarantee that most people arguing for the save states being completely legitimate way to "beat the game" have done this too-- maybe in less direct form but consider say passwords. Like, passwords exist in old games-- doubt many people are gonna agree someone beat Mega Man 2 if they password to Wily and beat him, are they? How is this different than savestate spamming through all the difficult stretches?

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Lopen posted...

Like, passwords exist in old games-- doubt many people are gonna agree someone beat Mega Man 2 if they password to Wily and beat him, are they? How is this different than savestate spamming through all the difficult stretches?

how is it in any way the same is the much better question

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"Rewinding and skipping are the same thing."

Man, that's definitely a take.

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NBIceman posted...

"Rewinding and skipping are the same thing."

Man, that's definitely a take.

I mean, if that person wants to say they beat Mega Man 2, Im not gonna argue

I feel like Lopen is trying to take the argument back to ground zero
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So at what point does skipping become less egregious than rewinding?

Say a dude has a problem getting through Heat Man's stage and passwords through that, does all the rest by himself.

Did he beat Mega Man 2?

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