Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 242: China, in fact, DOES Care

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Also "assault rifles" will never be fully banned in America, based on the broadness of the term and how many there are, and the Dems need to fucking abandon that line before it bites them in the ass.

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/457481-two-thirds-support-assault-weapons-ban-fox-news-poll

That's gr8, Rock, but two thirds of American's don't vote like 99% of Americans who love their assault rifles do.

This is the exact argument made about every progressive policy.

"Don't do that thing that's popular with the majority of the country, that will only drive out the GOP base!"

Hell, this is more popular than Medicare For All but I bet you wouldn't suggest Bernie stop running on that, would you?

The truth of the matter is that it doesn't matter how much the GOP base shows up if the Dem base shows up. And doing things that are both a) popular with the Dem base and b) popular with independents is a good thing.
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Problem is Beto doesn't have any substance.
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I mean I'm in support of banning literally all firearms and I would be encouraged to vote for someone aggressively pushing in that direction.

I agree that it isn't the politically smart stance overall, but I don't think it's true that such a stance wouldn't attract a portion of voters.
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TheRock1525 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Also "assault rifles" will never be fully banned in America, based on the broadness of the term and how many there are, and the Dems need to fucking abandon that line before it bites them in the ass.

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/457481-two-thirds-support-assault-weapons-ban-fox-news-poll

That's gr8, Rock, but two thirds of American's don't vote like 99% of Americans who love their assault rifles do.

This is the exact argument made about every progressive policy.

"Don't do that thing that's popular with the majority of the country, that will only drive out the GOP base!"

Hell, this is more popular than Medicare For All but I bet you wouldn't suggest Bernie stop running on that, would you?

The truth of the matter is that it doesn't matter how much the GOP base shows up if the Dem base shows up. And doing things that are both a) popular with the Dem base and b) popular with independents is a good thing.

There's a huge difference that you're ignoring.

When you pass Medicare for All, the people vehemently against it experience healthcare for themselves and their families and change their mind. It also puts them in the unenviable position that undoing it rips healthcare away from people they love (who vote).

When you pass a complete assault weapons ban, the people vehemently against it get their weapons confiscated and...what? What do they gain to change their minds? What's the downside for them to try and overturn it?
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

When you pass Medicare for All, the people vehemently against it experience healthcare for themselves and their families and change their mind.

That is absolutely not true and we saw how much Obamacare struggled to be popular until the GOP shit the bed when trying to repeal it.
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Also literally 46% of Republicans in that poll are okay with the ban.

We're talking almost half the Republican base wouldn't give a shit if you banned assault weapons.
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TheRock1525 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

When you pass Medicare for All, the people vehemently against it experience healthcare for themselves and their families and change their mind.

That is absolutely not true and we saw how much Obamacare struggled to be popular until the GOP shit the bed when trying to repeal it.

Setting aside how Obamacare was literally hamstrung from the jump, there's a reason the GOP didn't remove it when they had complete control during Trump's first two years.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

When you pass Medicare for All, the people vehemently against it experience healthcare for themselves and their families and change their mind.

That is absolutely not true and we saw how much Obamacare struggled to be popular until the GOP shit the bed when trying to repeal it.

Setting aside how Obamacare was literally hamstrung from the jump, there's a reason the GOP didn't remove it when they had complete control during Trump's first two years.

John McCain.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Also literally 46% of Republicans in that poll are okay with the ban.

We're talking almost half the Republican base wouldn't give a shit if you banned assault weapons.

46% out of a poll of 1000.

I'm not convinced.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

When you pass a complete assault weapons ban, the people vehemently against it get their weapons confiscated and...what? What do they gain to change their minds? What's the downside for them to try and overturn it?

Their loved ones are no longer getting shot.
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https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/07/poll-most-voters-support-assault-weapons-ban-1452586

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mass-shooting-assault-weapons-ban-poll_n_5d4c81d5e4b01e44e4777fea
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TheRock1525 posted...

Also literally 46% of Republicans in that poll are okay with the ban.

We're talking almost half the Republican base wouldn't give a shit if you banned assault weapons.

The problem is that the other ~50% of Repulican voters are more politically active and are willing to primary any Republican who supports limits on guns.
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Hell it has overwhelming support right now with folks telling you and you defending it and you only being against banning assault rifles because you dont think it has a ton of support. Take it from someone who lives deep in the red zone; conservatives dont care if you stop talking about it. They think that liberals are constantly trying to ban all guns, as ridiculous and crazy as it sounds the truth doesnt matter and they think its constantly on the verge unless they vote red every time they can. Since back before Bush. It literally doesnt matter what you say.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Define an assault weapon.

Anything semi-auto? Anything with a magazine larger than 9 rounds? A non-pistol with a pistol grip?

Those polls don't specify what an "assault weapon" is.

If it's banning all semi-automatic weapons (what Beto keeps yelling about doing, which was my original post), I'm telling you right now that the approval rating will drop, and the backlash will be incredible.

It takes a special kind of white liberal to think people should only be allowed to have single action revolvers, shotguns, and lever or bolt action rifles.
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If all semi-automatic weapons are banned, I would have to turn in all my firearms, and I'm not even a gun nut but I'm telling you I won't do it.
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What do you use that for

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

If all semi-automatic weapons are banned, I would have to turn in all my firearms, and I'm not even a gun nut but I'm telling you I won't do it.

So if cops showed up to confiscate them, you'd shoot them?
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No, I'd "lose" them before it came to that.
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May I ask why?
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We dont need somebody who wants less guns! seems like an incredibly weird hill to die on if youre on the left
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

No, I'd "lose" them before it came to that.

So just another almost equally dumb idea.
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HashtagSEP posted...

We dont need somebody who wants less guns! seems like an incredibly weird hill to die on if youre on the left

It's why Biden is the front runner. Everything might upset Trump's base and therefore we can't run on it.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

No, I'd "lose" them before it came to that.

Anything to not lose your Murder Sticks?

That's a pretty shitty position to take.

What if they had a trade program where they replaced your weapons with a small magazine pistol? Y'know for self defense.

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Tony is pretty far left on most issues tbf
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TheRock1525 posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

We dont need somebody who wants less guns! seems like an incredibly weird hill to die on if youre on the left

It's why Biden is the front runner. Everything might upset Trump's base and therefore we can't run on it.

This is the part thats so mind numbing to me

Heck yeah Medicare for all, and free college! ...Oh, but you better not touch those bigoted churches or the guns, the people that are 100% going to vote against us regardless might be even more upset when they vote against us!

Get out of here with that noise
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Tony is pretty far left on most issues tbf

Which is why his stance on guns is so bizarre. Especially in the face of overwhelming popularity.

Like it's so disingenuous to say that progressive policies have the will of the people and should be implemented, but oh wait, if it's the policy that I personally don't like then I'll bend over backwards to not capitulate to the will of the people.

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At a basic level, they're a tool I have available in case of emergency.

Think of the LA Riot in 92, where Koreatown basically only survived because the citizens protected their restaurants and stores with firearms.

Do you believe in climate change? If the world does reach catastrophic levels of disaster, do you think the government will be able to protect everyone?

HashtagSEP posted...

We dont need somebody who wants less guns! seems like an incredibly weird hill to die on if youre on the left

https://psmag.com/social-justice/why-some-members-of-the-far-left-advocate-against-gun-control

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/22/if-others-have-rifles-well-have-rifles-why-leftist-groups-are-taking-up-arms

And to be clear, I am not against all gun restrictions.

But if you're going to restrict everything but cowboy weapons, you're helping ensure only the far-right/nationalist types have all the firepower, and sorry, but I'm not ok with that.
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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Tony is pretty far left on most issues tbf

Im not saying hes not

Im just saying it seems mind numbingly stupid to me to care about pissing off the right and have that be an argument against certain issues
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HashtagSEP posted...

Im not saying hes not

Im just saying it seems mind numbingly stupid to me to care about pissing off the right and have that be an argument against certain issues

It's not even about the right, he is saying that he personally would go out of his way to oppose a policy that caused his guns to be turned in.

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HashtagSEP posted...

DoomTheGyarados posted...

Tony is pretty far left on most issues tbf

Im not saying hes not

Im just saying it seems mind numbingly stupid to me to care about pissing off the right and have that be an argument against certain issues

I'm specifically talking about Beto's public statements, you guys are missing the specificity of my complaint. Does "Assault Weapons Ban" mean all semi-automatic weapons to you?

If so, I'm not on board.
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

Im not saying hes not

Im just saying it seems mind numbingly stupid to me to care about pissing off the right and have that be an argument against certain issues

It's not even about the right, he is saying that he personally

His initial argument was that itd piss off the right though
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For the record, I also think If we take away the guns then only bad people will have guns so we shouldnt take away guns is a bad argument, too, but whatev
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HashtagSEP posted...

For the record, I also think If we take away the guns then only bad people will have guns so we shouldnt take away guns is a bad argument, too, but whatev

Yeah because it's wrong, or at least pointedly ignoring the fact that while yes, some unscrupulous people would get their hands on guns, but deaths from gun violence would still be massively down overall.

I'll side with statistics every single time in situations like that.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Forceful_Dragon posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

Im not saying hes not

Im just saying it seems mind numbingly stupid to me to care about pissing off the right and have that be an argument against certain issues

It's not even about the right, he is saying that he personally

His initial argument was that itd piss off the right though

No, my initial argument was that Beto's specific statements of "Hell yes we're banning Semi-automatic weapons" is an extremely bad position.

HashtagSEP posted...

For the record, I also think If we take away the guns then only bad people will have guns so we shouldnt take away guns is a bad argument, too, but whatev

In this case, it's fact. If you ban all semi-auto, literally only Cops and "gun nuts" will have them, well-known friends of the Left.
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Considering he hounds on the AR-15, I'm pretty sure he has a general idea of what weapons he wants banned.
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it's a rather ridiculous point for Tony to complain about Beto standing by a progressive (and popular) policy in the one instance that Tony's to the right.

Beto's doing what Beto should be doing, and if you disagree with the policy... you don't vote for him. "What will the right think!" is complete nonsense that we shouldn't be concerning ourselves with so strongly that we try to avoid the conversation/debate, "what will the right say" is the same horseshit that gets in the way of literally every progressive policy discussion. ie, they'll call us socialists!!!!
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

No, my initial argument was that Beto's specific statements of "Hell yes we're banning Semi-automatic weapons" is an extremely bad position.

Good thing that's not what he said in his famous "hell yes" statement.
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Has he even literally said all semi-auto? Ive only really heard him harp on the guns that pretty much everybody but the biggest loonies agree are a problem
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Grimlyn posted...

it's a rather ridiculous point for Tony to complain about Beto standing by a progressive (and popular) policy in the one instance that Tony's to the right.

No dammit, not one of you has addressed my post where I asked for your definition of assault weapons.

TheRock1525 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

No, my initial argument was that Beto's specific statements of "Hell yes we're banning Semi-automatic weapons" is an extremely bad position.

Good thing that's not what he said in his famous "hell yes" statement.

See above.
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He literally said AR-15's in the fucking quote.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Considering he hounds on the AR-15, I'm pretty sure he has a general idea of what weapons he wants banned.

So...semi-auto rifles.
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It doesnt matter what we define it as when the guy youre arguing about has been fairly clear about what hes talking about. If he actually said all semi-auto, then by all means show us and I might better understand where youre coming from
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Like he used the term assault rifle. Pretty sure that would disqualify handguns unless he's said differently, but when he went on Meet the Press after the "hell yes" thing he talked about assault rifles.
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I mean didn't stores like Dicks and Walmart literally store carrying these weapons and one of them literally destroyed their entire supply of them?
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I can't find the clip right now but I saw it on Facebook.

Beto was asked why he wasn't calling for banning all semi-automatic weapons, and he basically said "Yeah, we're open to that, if we can improve our proposal we'll look into reflecting that".
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So you came into this topic very upset about something Beto said but you can't remember when or where it was said other than "I saw it on facebook." And there is enough of a gap between your decision to post it and when you initially saw it that you don't have the video ready.

Okay.
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How does open to that immediately translate to WE ARE TAKING LITERALLY EVERY GUN and sudden panic when he hasnt actually campaigned on that

He has campaigned on assault rifles. If you have a problem with wanting to take away assault rifles, then thats a different discussion. But until he actually starts campaigning on and specifically saying Im taking handguns, too! then this kinda seems like silly alarmist behavior
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Beto was asked why he wasn't calling for banning all semi-automatic weapons, and he basically said "Yeah, we're open to that, if we can improve our proposal we'll look into reflecting that".

... so? a non-concrete idea they're looking into?

cool beans go ahead, taking issue with that seems like overeager fearmongering, you're going straight to 100 "they wanna take away your hamburgers over cow farts" simplification
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Grimlyn posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Beto was asked why he wasn't calling for banning all semi-automatic weapons, and he basically said "Yeah, we're open to that, if we can improve our proposal we'll look into reflecting that".

... so? a non-concrete idea they're looking into?

cool beans go ahead, taking issue with that seems like overeager fearmongering, you're going straight to 100 "they wanna take away your hamburgers over cow farts" simplification

"THEY WANT TO BAN AIR TRAVEL AND MAKE YOU RIDE A TRAIN EVERYWHERE!"
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Also, I don't think gun ownership is inherently right-wing.

Off the top of my head, the Black Panther Party and Marx are both proponents of the working class responsibly owning firearms.

Hell, I'd be A-ok with mandatory gun training, but I think the idea of banning weapons is a losing proposition.
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