Board 8 > Survivor Island of Idols/BB21 Discussion - Rob and Sandra are conspiring bitches

(+) Yeah! (+)

A new season is underway. Yay.
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It's tough, but I gotta go with CBB2.
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DvG > CBB2 > huge gap > TAR31 > BB21 > EoE
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I like how you're already in the Survivor spirit by putting a 0 vote goat in the poll.

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smarten up
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Just watched Cliff's goodbye messages and it really makes Michie even worse if that was possible. He believes the half a million is already his and if he loses it would be "taken away from" him.
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DvG > TAR31 > BB21 > CBB2 > AUS2019 > EOE

Underleveled posted...

Just watched Cliff's goodbye messages and it really makes Michie even worse if that was possible. He believes the half a million is already his and if he loses it would be "taken away from" him.

Sounds like the guy we were just talking about.

Mewtwo59 posted...

I like how you're already in the Survivor spirit by putting a 0 vote goat in the poll.

Who voted for that goat?
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CBB2 > DvG > gap > BB21 > TAR31 > EoE
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Also, I did a quick season ranking off the top of my head, to prepare for IotI.

Aggressively Boring Shit, Indicative of Everything Wrong with How Production Thinks Survivor Should Be Played

38. Redemption Island
37. Caramoan
36. Cambodia
35. Ghost Island
34. Millennials vs. Gen X

Aggressively Negative and Mean-Spirited

33. All-Stars
32. Thailand
31. Worlds Apart

Lifeless and Boring

30. Cook Islands
29. One World
28. Australia
27. Tocantins

Okay, but More Problematic Than Not

26. South Pacific
25. Samoa
24. Edge of Extinction
23. Blood vs. Water
22. Africa
21. Game Changers

Noticeably Flawed, but Decent

20. Palau
19. Fiji
18. Heroes vs. Healers vs. Hustlers
17. Micronesia
16. Amazon
15. Exile Island
14. David vs. Goliath

Solid, All the Way Through

13. Heroes vs. Villains
12. Borneo
11. Cagayan
10. Nicaragua
9. Guatemala
8. Gabon

Absolutely Top Tier

7. Philippines
6. Marquesas
5. China
4. San Juan Del Sur
3. Pearl Islands
2. Vanuatu
1. Kaoh Rong
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no respect for love island on this board
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Inviso's list is one of the most wrong things I have ever seen. Just wow, how can someone have such bad taste?

Oh wait, it's Inviso.
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Whats wrong about it?
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Worlds Apart, South Pacific, Nicaragua too high

Amazon, Exile Island, DvG too low
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Amazon has like, six good characters in a cast of sixteen. Its astounding how much Rob has to carry that season.

Exile spends half the season dealing with the slow death of one of the flattest tribes ever.

DvG has a horrible ending, and it suffers from the same problems as most modern seasons in that they feel the need to cram far too much into the final few episodes, forgoing character development in favor of mindless strategy and blindsides.

Nicaragua is dynamic and exciting and awesome. South Pacific has a strong pre-merge and endgame, and the worst portion got fast forwarded through. Worlds Apart is still bad, but at least its interesting.
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I don't think I'll ever get what you see in Game Changers.
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Mewtwo59 posted...

I don't think I'll ever get what you see in Game Changers.

The pre-merge was pretty much excellent, extending all the way through the Debbie boot, Zeke/Sierra were kinda standard, but at least they had no business being in the cast. The season only went to shit in the final two episodes.
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Too high: EOE, South Pacific, Nicaragua, Lame Changers, Worlds Apart, Vanuatu, SJDS, Fiji, Marquesas, Kaoh Rong

Too low: Cambodia, MvGX, Australia, David vs. Goliath, Cagayan, Heroes vs. Villains, Tocantins, even RI

You have things all over the place. It's a truly terrible list.

The pre-merge of Lame Changers was great but once the Queen got swap-fucked, it was a total disaster from there and became extremely confusing, terrible television. The only good character that season was Queen Sandra because everything centered around her for the first six episodes, and after that we had nothing because things were not set up.
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EoE was mostly inoffensive and had a good ending.

Covered, covered, covered, covered.

Vanuatu has an all-but-perfect cast, and the story of the season wound up amazing.

SJDS, see Vanuatu, except Reed and Josh and Dale suck.

Fiji, the post-merge is really strong, enough to make up for the disastrous first half of the season.

Marquesas is what Amazon claims to be, with a solid cast and good shake-ups.

Kaoh Rong is absolutely amazing with a stellar cast, solid heroes and villains, and a nobody winner to ensure the editors balanced the screen time.

Cambodia is just Game Changers with emotionless players, and you agree that Game Changers is subpar.

MvGX is just Cambodia with newbies, thus, see Cambodia.

Australia is EXTREMELY boring and drags too long. Its a slog the second Jeff drops from the merge immunity challenge.

Covered.

Cagayan, the Beauty tribe is absolutely useless, and Spencer gets way too much focus for someone as bad as him.

HvV is too Russell-centric, even though its a better edit than Samoa.

Tocantins is EXTREMELY boring. Jalapao is a tribe of boring, normal people and Sandy, and they instigate a reverse Pagonging of the better tribe. Its like if La Mina picked off all of Casaya.

RI has perhaps the worst final three of all time. Robs fourth attempt, steamrolling a cast of sheep. Phillips cringeworthy character. And vapid Natalie doing everything she can to lie down and let Rob kick her ass. Terrible fucking season.
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Meanwhile, Big Brother (only the ones Ive seen):

BB17 > BB11 > BB13 > BB10 > BB21 > BB20 > BB14 > BB18 > BB15 > BB12 > BB19 > BB16
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Of the ones I have seen

21 > 18 > 20 > 19

I put 18 > 20 because 18 was actually pretty unpredictable and had a decent number of shake-ups in the balance of power, while 20 was just a boring slog of a shitty alliance decimating an interesting one; in terms of low-lows and genuinely uncomfortable moments, they both had their share that balance out enough for it to come down to gameplay.
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And to finish the trifecta:

TAR5 > TAR29 > TAR3 > TAR22
TAR30 > TAR25 > TAR12 > TAR2 > TAR1 > TAR17
TAR18 > TAR27 > TAR13 > TAR26 > TAR31 > TAR14
TAR11 (only one I have yet to watch)
TAR9 > TAR19 > TAR21 > TAR23
TAR10 > TAR28 > TAR15
TAR4 > TAR7 > TAR16
TAR20 > TAR6 > TAR8 > TAR24
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8 isn't outright awful, it's just boring and undermines the spirit of the show. It isn't outright offensive like other bottom tier seasons.
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Underleveled posted...

8 isn't outright awful, it's just boring and undermines the spirit of the show. It isn't outright offensive like other bottom tier seasons.

Its not OFFENSIVE, but I remember it being an actual chore to get through. Even though I had the Weavers and Paolos for most of the season, I CANNOT remember another season where the quality of the tasks and race course was SO LOW as to lessen my enjoyment.
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Espeon posted...

EoE was mostly inoffensive and had a good ending.

It had a good ending? WTF. It was one of the worst endings in any reality show I've ever seen. Stopped reading your post there. (And I didn't want Devens to win either, but it was so unsatisfying regardless).

BB10 way too low. BB13 and TAR3 way too high.
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So it's pretty clear that since hitting the 20s and especially the 30s Survivor has become a shadow of its former self. I've compiled a list of some of our biggest complaints and would like to see how everyone emphasizes them. How would you all prioritize the following (from most important to least important) in terms of making S41 and beyond better?

-Fewer/less intrusive twists
-Fewer returnees
-More character-focused editing
-More balanced editing
-Reversion from recent format changes (F4, FTC, etc)
-Diversion from thematic casting
-More diverse casting (race, age, region, personality type, etc)
-More diverse locations (at this point we may as well call this one "Get out of Fiji")

These are all things that production has control over, of course. For me I would say it goes...

1. More character-focused editing
2. Fewer/less intrusive twists
3. Reversion from recent format changes
4. More diverse casting
5. Fewer returnees
6. More balanced editing
7. Diversion from thematic casting
8. More diverse locations

Though to be honest, all of them are pretty important to me. It's a bit of an odd thing so I didn't include it, but I would also love to see the occasional "throwback" season (16 players, merge at 10, jury at 9, F2, and minimal twists).
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1. More David vs. Goliath type editing - a good balance of character, gameplay, and actually showing funny little moments
2. No silly themes
3. Fewer advantages, idols, and swaps
4. Get out of Fiji
5. No more mixed returnee/newbie seasons

That's it.

Underleveled posted...

4. More diverse casting

wtf have you even seen the IOI cast? If you don't think that's diverse enough, then you're asking for more recruits that will do nothing because they don't know the show. This isn't a complaint AT ALL.
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BlueCrystalTear posted...

wtf have you even seen the IOI cast?

To be honest I actually haven't and probably won't until the premier. I took a brief look at some leaks months ago and I remember a couple of names (a Molly and a Lauren I think?) and that's about it.
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BlueCrystalTear posted...

you're asking for more recruits that will do nothing because they don't know the show.

Also I kind of alluded to this in a post in the previous topic, but at this point I'd welcome more recruits because the superfans are becoming far too gamey.
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EoEs ending was great because A. Rick didnt win, B. Gavin wasnt awarded a win for mediocrity, and C. It always brings me joy when production gets fucked over after shoveling bad twists and themes onto a season (see: Sophie winning SoPa). Chris has to be the WORST possible winner to come off of EoE (from a production/editing standpoint), so him winning and making Jeff mad at the season is great.
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Espeon posted...

Chris has to be the WORST possible winner to come off of EoE (from a production/editing standpoint)

Eric would have been worse, and maybe Julia as well.
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Underleveled posted...

Espeon posted...

Chris has to be the WORST possible winner to come off of EoE (from a production/editing standpoint)

Eric would have been worse, and maybe Julia as well.

At least those two made the merge. Chris was the guy who couldnt even win the first comeback challenge.
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Clearly you have conflicting priorities, Inviso, if you want the Survivor producers to get wrecked for their take on the game but have no problem championing BB13, one of the most blatant and heavy-handed BB seasons where Rachel Reilly (and all the other vets) were thrown numerous bones all season.

They wanted the vets to last to jury, they wanted Brendon back in the house with the absurd battle back 'America's Vote', they wanted Rachel & Jordan in the F2 thanks to a timely Pandora's Box, and yeah, I know they probably wanted Jeff to win, but they were more than happy to settle for Rachel.

I know you don't think nearly as critically about BB as you do Survivor, but BB13 is similar to the Cambodia of modern Big Brother. It's the first season where production was absolutely shameless in their endeavor to produce a certain outcome. BB8 began the snowfall while BB13 was the avalanche.
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And I mean that Cambodia has infected Survivor with a heavy dose of a new direction for the show, with it being verrrry much about strategy 24/7. Because a lot of fans loved that direction, as did the producers, and so they went that way moving forward (after Kaoh Rong, of course).

BB13 is the same take. Just look at BB14. Look at 16. 18. OTT. 19.

Starting with BB8, the show began to get in its own way of being great. BB8 dipped its toe in the waters to see what they could pull off with an all-encompassing twist to reward the fan favorites, to create contrived narratives and gameplay for the sake of giving the audience 'what they want' (and the producers what they want, strong ratings).

BB13 was when the producers went all-in. It's Micronesia but with endless twists to favor the vets, to give the fans 'what they want' in spite of anything else happening in the house. The producers trivialized the show. Even the edit in BB13 was pretty bad, heavily tilted toward the vets, something most don't consider when discussing BB (except BBCAN6). They continued with BB14 and have never looked back.

I'll never forget how disappointed I was with BB13.
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Peridiam posted...

Clearly you have conflicting priorities, Inviso, if you want the Survivor producers to get wrecked for their take on the game but have no problem championing BB13, one of the most blatant and heavy-handed BB seasons where Rachel Reilly (and all the other vets) were thrown numerous bones all season.

They wanted the vets to last to jury, they wanted Brendon back in the house with the absurd battle back 'America's Vote', they wanted Rachel & Jordan in the F2 thanks to a timely Pandora's Box, and yeah, I know they probably wanted Jeff to win, but they were more than happy to settle for Rachel.

I know you don't think nearly as critically about BB as you do Survivor, but BB13 is similar to the Cambodia of modern Big Brother. It's the first season where production was absolutely shameless in their endeavor to produce a certain outcome. BB8 began the snowfall while BB13 was the avalanche.

You clearly still don't get Inviso's biggest issue with Cambodia. He hates it (as do I) because it is boring and we are unable to get invested into the characters because, well, there are none. It's just a bunch of players doing gamey things.

The way you described BB13 it sounds more like the HvHvH of BB, which Inviso ranks near the middle and sees merits in in spite of blatant producer manipulation.
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BB13 never bothered me as much because the season was still GOOD despite the rigging. There was a bunch of back and forth, and the vets got picked off Brendon>Dani>Jeff, ultimately leading to the veteran I feel the fans LEAST wanted to win being the winner.

BB and Survivor are just two different animals to me. On Survivor, if the producers want a certain outcome, theres nothing really preventing them from pushing that. The show is taped, so nothing keeps them honest. Thus, on those rare occasions when the players manage to fuck up that desired outcome, it feels more special.

Big Brother, there are so many variables due to the format that no matter how hard the producers try, they might still get fucked (Jeff blowing the DE veto, Adam/Porsche winning the F4 comps to take out Americas sweetheart Jordan, a bitter jury voting against Dan and Paul).

PLUS, as mentioned, Big Brother is far more fluid than Survivor. Sure, recent Survivor seasons have seen the rise of dumbassed strategy for strategys sake, but for the most part, once an alliance takes power, its only dumbassery that upsets the apple cart. Big Brother, the tides can turn every week due to the nature of HoH competitions. Hence why BB13 and the front half of BB20 were so good.
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It also helps that I went into BB13 absolutely hating Rachel. She was my least favorite from BB12, and that was only a year prior. Yet in the context of the BB13 house, she was just FUN and entertaining. She is the ONLY returnee in any franchise where I went from outright hatred in their first season, to love in the second.
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Woops, I accidentally got spoiled as to who wins Part 1 of the Final HoH.

Jackson Michie
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BB13 was bad because of the rigging, which began on Day 1 and continued potentially until finale night, or at the very least until the F6.

It's bizarre to me that you think they didn't want Rachel to win. Rachel may have been #4 or #5 on the producers list of who they wanted to win (after Dick, though that was only but a few days in), but they hedged their bets right out of the gate to ensure any of them would be in a prime position. It's the same issue I have with BB14.

For me, when you remove the stakes, you remove the sense of drama. You remove the vital ingredient that makes the show so compelling. I don't find much of a point in watching a game if there's no game to be had. I may as well switch to Real Housewives or The Bachelor. The first half of BB13 is some of the worst BB out there, a total steamroll with the producers pets. I'm not clueless enough to believe the vets were in any sense of trouble. It was terrible TV and a bad season because of how forced the setup and twists were, how low the stakes were, how poor the gameplay was (largely thanks to the twists), and how the outcome was entirely pre-ordained from the start.

It was the producers wet dream to have Rachel win, especially over Porsche, who I would argue is the #1 most screwed over player from the edit in all of Big Brother. That girl was left out in the dark all season and nobody cared, least of all when she was 1 vote shy of ruining what the producers had wished for after contorting the show.

I perhaps have a similar take on the BB producers that you do for the Survivor producers. I find it really difficult to watch when the BB producers tip the scales so far in one direction. It creates a sense of hollowness in me and mars my experience. At surface level it's exciting to see the power swing at the midway point in BB13, but it's SO unearned after the pre-jury and the setup for the vets to succeed. Compare it to BB21 right at the end of pre-jury, with the Day 44 explosion. So earned and SO satisfying. One of the best BB moments in a long while, unlike when Kalia evicted Lawon in BB13 because she feared a twist, or Brendon returned at this point in BB13 thanks to a terrible implementation of a 'battle back', or when Rachel was gifted Pandora's Box, screwing over the most compelling player of the season in Shelly.

I know you don't care so much about the integrity of the game, but to me that's the 'boring' bit. BB16 is SUPER boring because it's a steamroll, but at least it was fair play. BB13 was 50% a steamroll by the producers pets (ala Derrick & Frankie), then a bunch of bullshit back-to-back, with a wholly unearned winner by the end. No bueno.
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Espeon posted...

It also helps that I went into BB13 absolutely hating Rachel. She was my least favorite from BB12, and that was only a year prior. Yet in the context of the BB13 house, she was just FUN and entertaining. She is the ONLY returnee in any franchise where I went from outright hatred in their first season, to love in the second.

When you plant of a bunch of spineless newbies amidst a cast of comp-beast vets (sans Jordan), go figure she rises to the top when she repeats the same terrible strategy from BB12. Doesn't help that the edit heavily favored the vets either - the producers wanted you to love her.

This is part of what makes BB so unique as a show. There are numerous way to watch and appreciate (or not) what it brings to the table. BB13 was not fun to watch on the live feeds, which to me is largely Big Brother. The episodes weren't so great either at the time. But I imagine if I were to rewatch BB13 today, I'd probably appreciate it a little more now that I can binge it.
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No, I DONT care about the integrity of the game, so long as it results in a more entertaining season. The season we got had a delightful uprising, followed by outright stupidity on Kalias part (the Brendon comeback only happened because she refused to nominate Jordan), followed by retaliation, followed by the best double eviction ever, followed by riggage to balance things out, followed by the eventual defeat of Jordan and Adam, leading to a final 2 with no bad outcome.

There isnt a SINGLE other season Ive watched, where the final vote was win-win either way. Typically in Big Brother, by the time the finals roll around, Im praying someone LOSES, rather than hoping someone WINS. Memphis and Ian wouldve both been disappointments compared to Dan, Jordan and Natalie were both subpar, same goes for Hayden/Lane, Andy SUCKS, Derrick/Cody SUCK, Steve was a massive disappointment, Nicole SUCKS, Paul SUCKS, Tyler SUCKS, whichever of Jolly make the final two will be disappointing.

With Rachel and Porsche though, Porsche was my favorite character of the season, and her winning wouldve overcome the rigging with a smile on her face all season. Rachel, meanwhile, was a hilarious drama bomb, and had to have been the producers sixth choice out of six veterans to hold that winner title. Yeah, I was rooting for Porsche, but the outcome was guaranteed to be good either way.
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Espeon posted...

I DONT care about the integrity of the game, so long as it results in a more entertaining season.

in other words

"Rigging is okay, but only if it helps my favorites. Otherwise, no!"

sounds casual
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Oh, so all the Ben stuff was fine then, because it gave us a more exciting endgame.
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Mewtwo59 posted...

Oh, so all the Ben stuff was fine then, because it gave us a more exciting endgame.

It didn't though. It gave us the boring endgame that the producers desired instead of a Devon/Christy/Ryan F3, which made sense as a conclusion to the story that had been built since the very first episode, and in which, even though one person had a pretty clear leg up, any of the three could have plead their case and stood a shot.
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Yeah, Inviso, I know. You enjoy a rig as long as it's entertaining. I prefer no rig at all, as it undermines the entertainment, the core value of the entire show. Different values there. I mean, I still loved the Jeff DE, it was fair and square, but the before and after was tough to swallow.

I just can't see myself being on board for riggage, lapping up spoiled milk the producers believe is good for us and the show. Similar to your take on Probst, my take is that Grodner gets in her own way and doesn't care, or even believe it. And it's hurt the value of the show over the years. There's not enough time in the world to settle for (what I believe to be) less. But I still love what the show was, and there's still numerous traces of it now... But overall, I just want to put the milk back in the fridge where it used to be.
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If anything, BB11 was the changing point, what with Jessie in the cast, dominating, and then Jeff getting the Rig detat. But thats a good season too!
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Underleveled posted...

Mewtwo59 posted...

Oh, so all the Ben stuff was fine then, because it gave us a more exciting endgame.

It didn't though. It gave us the boring endgame that the producers desired instead of a Devon/Christy/Ryan F3, which made sense as a conclusion to the story that had been built since the very first episode, and in which, even though one person had a pretty clear leg up, any of the three could have plead their case and stood a shot.

It was better than the slow march towards the inevitable Devon/Chrissy/Ryan Final 3 we would have gotten had Ben not found any idols. Now he should have gone out at 4, but the endless idols made what would've been a steamroll more exciting
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Okay, that's like the 8th time I've called Chrissy "Christy"
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Yeah, I don't like rigging. It ruins the core human elements that make Survivor and Big Brother so appealing and instead puts a focus on these grandiose moments that feel artificial. I much prefer seasons where there's less focus on one moment and more focus on depth of character. I can't be entertained by something that's advertised as an exploration of the human core when in reality it's artificially inseminated by the producers.

Grodner's attempts to create a "game-changing twist" really does make the Houseguests leave their strategies at the door - and the overall narrative suffers from it. The twists more often than not get in the way of entertainment and instead make it some dumb nonsense that justifies immunity from eviction for doing nothing. Peridiam, you explained it all very well in that video, so I'm not going to rehash any of it. I found myself agreeing with pretty much every one you listed being either a waste of time or an undermining of the game. One thing I do hope comes back is a weakened version of Ovi's power, with it applying to only ONE nominee and having to be played on a person before the nomination ceremony. Grants complete safety, but must be played without knowing who the final nominations are, and will only apply if correct. This should be hidden in the house proper, so anyone can find it.

In Survivor, Probst rigging it for his bros like he did with Ben is bad for the show because that's not entertaining. Watching someone find idols left and right is not fun. Watching someone's tactics of diplomacy to keep themselves alive is. That's what the game was meant to be, but what it's turned into is a twist-fest that's barely recognizable, and someone who hasn't watched since Cambodia will be baffled as to what they missed the show turning into. That's because production cares more about 2:3 swaps and other rubbish that only artificially shakes up the game on a very temporary basis. Time and time again, alliances get based on original tribes, so why not force those tribes to stay together for 19 days like it used to be? I'm getting close to the point where I'm apathetic enough about Survivor's future to stop watching it entirely, and that can be rectified if S41 is a Tocantins-like "back to basics" season where there's two tribes of 9, no swap, three total idols, no bonus advantages, merge at 11, jury of 9, final 2. That would be much more fun.
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BlueCrystalTear posted...

Espeon posted...

I DONT care about the integrity of the game, so long as it results in a more entertaining season.

in other words

"Rigging is okay, but only if it helps my favorites. Otherwise, no!"

sounds casual

I guess everyone on the integrity bandwagon hates Pearl Islands, then?
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Also, something thats probably not coming across properly:

Im NOT a fan of producer rigging on Big Brother (Or Survivor, but were talking about Big Brother in regards to BB13). But the rigging in BB11 or BB13 doesnt bother me like, say, BB19, because ultimately the rigging didnt damage the overall season. Rachel may have won BB13, but she was in no way the producers pet, and all their more prominent pets got taken out by one of the most unlikely collections of newbies imaginable.
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