Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 235: Autopsy-Turvy

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MalcolmMasher
08/20/19 1:37:13 AM
#152:


"Third, we considered whether to evaluate the conduct we investigated under the Justice Manual standards governing prosecution and declination decisions, but we determined not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes. [...] The ordinary means for an individual to respond to an accusation is through a speedy and public trial, with all the procedural protections that surround a criminal case. An individual who believes he was wrongly accused can use that process to seek to clear his name. In contrast, a prosecutor's judgment that crimes were committed, but that no charges will be brought, affords no such adversarial opportunity for public name-clearing before an impartial adjudicator."

Mueller can't charge the President. Since he can't charge the President, he won't accuse the President. Since he won't accuse the President, he had to walk back his sincere but impolitic statement that "yeah, we would have indicted anyone else, but him we can't."

Edit: By the way - I am wholly in favor of impeachment. Yes, the Republican Senate will refuse to follow through. I acknowledge that. Let the Democrats stand for America and the rule of law, while the Republicans stand for greed and the rule of power, and in time the arc of the moral universe will bend toward justice.
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Corrik7
08/20/19 1:39:41 AM
#153:


MalcolmMasher posted...
"Third, we considered whether to evaluate the conduct we investigated under the Justice Manual standards governing prosecution and declination decisions, but we determined not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes. [...] The ordinary means for an individual to respond to an accusation is through a speedy and public trial, with all the procedural protections that surround a criminal case. An individual who believes he was wrongly accused can use that process to seek to clear his name. In contrast, a prosecutor's judgment that crimes were committed, but that no charges will be brought, affords no such adversarial opportunity for public name-clearing before an impartial adjudicator."

Mueller can't charge the President. Since he can't charge the President, he won't accuse the President. Since he won't accuse the President, he had to walk back his sincere but impolitic statement that "yeah, we would have indicted anyone else, but him we can't."

Edit: By the way - I am wholly in favor of impeachment. Yes, the Republican Senate will refuse to follow through. I acknowledge that. Let the Democrats stand for America and the rule of law, while the Republicans stand for greed and the rule of power, and in time the arc of the moral universe will bend toward justice.
That was never said.

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red sox 777
08/20/19 1:40:59 AM
#154:


Corrik7 posted...
If Denmark is so adamant that Greenland is its own place, and it could never sell it because Greenland is Greenlandic not Danish.

Then why doesn't Denmark just release it outright?

I mean, I know exactly why the United States would be interested in buying Greenland is moreso than strategic but also the rare earth metals that China has been gobbling up deposits of around the globe to try and create a monopoly on.

So, I understand our reasoning. However, the Denmark reasoning for why it is absurd kind of doesn't make sense either.


If Greenland wants to join the US, it'll happen. But they need an incentive for that and giving Denmark a bunch of money doesn't help Greenland. Basically, Denmark is saying it won't sell out its citizens in Greenland.
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Corrik7
08/20/19 1:44:30 AM
#155:


red sox 777 posted...
If Greenland wants to join the US, it'll happen. But they need an incentive for that and giving Denmark a bunch of money doesn't help Greenland. Basically, Denmark is saying it won't sell out its citizens in Greenland.
Denmark sold us territory before lol.

I don't see much difference in it to Greenland who actually owns the territory. At worst, maybe they get dual citizenship and a bigger bank to rely on if necessary for disasters.

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MalcolmMasher
08/20/19 1:48:46 AM
#156:


Corrik7 posted...
That was never said.


Corrik. I am quoting from the Mueller Report. Page 214.
Edit: I should clarify, that's Page 214 on my .pdf viewer. Mueller would call it Page 2 of Volume 2.

Here's the web page: https://www.justice.gov/sco
Or a link to the report itself: https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf
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red sox 777
08/20/19 1:48:48 AM
#157:


Corrik7 posted...
red sox 777 posted...
If Greenland wants to join the US, it'll happen. But they need an incentive for that and giving Denmark a bunch of money doesn't help Greenland. Basically, Denmark is saying it won't sell out its citizens in Greenland.
Denmark sold us territory before lol.

I don't see much difference in it to Greenland who actually owns the territory. At worst, maybe they get dual citizenship and a bigger bank to rely on if necessary for disasters.


Uh, with Denmark they have one of the happiest, healthiest, highest standard of living countries in the world. A country that cares about Greenland's environment, that shares history and culture with Greenland. Why would they give that up and join the US?
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Corrik7
08/20/19 2:06:09 AM
#158:


"yeah, we would have indicted anyone else, but him we can't."

Show me where you quoted that from the Mueller Report.

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Corrik7
08/20/19 2:12:32 AM
#159:


red sox 777 posted...
Uh, with Denmark they have one of the happiest, healthiest, highest standard of living countries in the world. A country that cares about Greenland's environment, that shares history and culture with Greenland. Why would they give that up and join the US?
Sources for Greenland itself having one of the highest standards of living countries? Or even sources on any of it.

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Corrik7
08/20/19 2:16:19 AM
#160:


"Even though the country is high-income, at least one quarter of Greenlanders still live in tiny settlements and do not have access to basic services like adequate emergency health care and schools."

"Take life expectancy:

Greenland women: 74
Greenland men: 68
Those numbers are surprisingly low for a high-income country. In Denmark, which still partially controls Greenland, men live about a decade longer."

"Greenlands economy depends on exports of shrimp and fish, and on a substantial subsidy from the Danish Government. Fish account for over 90% of its exports, subjecting the economy to price fluctuations. The subsidy from the Danish Government is budgeted to be about $535 million in 2017, more than 50% of government revenues, and 25% of GDP."

"Significant challenges face the island, including low levels of qualified labor, geographic dispersion, lack of industry diversification, the long-term sustainability of the public budget, and a declining population due to emigration. Hydrocarbon exploration has ceased with declining oil prices. The island has potential for natural resource exploitation with rare-earth, uranium, and iron ore mineral projects proposed, but a lack of infrastructure hinders development."

"Unemployment rate:
9.1% (2015 est.)
10.3% (2014 est.)"

"Military and Security :: GREENLAND
Military branches:
no regular military forces or conscription; the Government of Denmark has responsibility for defense; as such the Danish militarys Joint Arctic Command in Nuuk is responsible for territorial defense of Greenland(2016)
Military - note:
defense is the responsibility of Denmark
"

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red sox 777
08/20/19 2:26:21 AM
#161:


I said Denmark is extremely prosperous not Greenland. The point is, why would the US do better for Greenland than Denmark?
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Corrik7
08/20/19 2:30:10 AM
#162:


That is not what you said. What you said was. With Denmark (as the owner of their territory) They (Greenland) have yadda yadda.

They actually don't really have shit. Denmark has that shit. Greenland does not.

Again, so at worst they have dual citizenships, actual protection, a bigger bank to rely on, and they probably industrialize more (eliminating unemployment some) when the United States starts unearthing their rare metals and creating a source of income that the United States is eager to tap. Probably causing some immigration there to fix their negative momentum there. Increasing GDP. Tourism will increase with the publicity. Etc.

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red sox 777
08/20/19 2:32:41 AM
#163:


Corrik7 posted...
That is not what you said. What you said was. With Denmark (as the owner of their territory) They (Greenland) have yadda yadda.

They actually don't really have shit. Denmark has that shit. Greenland does not.

Again, so at worst they have dual citizenships, actual protection, a bigger bank to rely on, and they probably industrialize more (eliminating unemployment some) when the United States starts unearthing their rare metals and creating a source of income that the United States is eager to tap. Probably causing some immigration there to fix their negative momentum there. Increasing GDP. Tourism will increase with the publicity. Etc.


No you misread what I said. "Country" refers to Denmark in my post. It wasn't worded as well as possible but should be clear in context.
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Corrik7
08/20/19 2:38:37 AM
#164:


red sox 777 posted...
No you misread what I said. "Country" refers to Denmark in my post. It wasn't worded as well as possible but should be clear in context.
Then what you said has absolutely no bearing at all in any way why Greenland would prefer Denmark than the United States at all. So, you shouldn't even had said it because it was extraneous and completely didn't make sense to the discussion. What happens in Denmark does not translate to Greenland.

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Corrik7
08/20/19 2:53:31 AM
#165:


"But with the melting ice, the island's vast quantities of metals and energy resourcesbelieved to include iron ore, lead, zinc, diamonds, gold, copper, uranium and oilare becoming more accessible than ever before. Local politicians want to exploit these resources with an eye on becoming fully independent from Denmark. Given that Denmark still supports Greenland economically to the tune of half its annual budget, the potential value of these resources is clear."

If anything, it sounds like Greenland wants to be free of Denmark but just needs their money right now. I guess their histories and cultures (no idea why you even said this) aren't too entwined!

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red sox 777
08/20/19 3:00:41 AM
#166:


What I'm saying is that there's no reason to believe the US can provide investment capital that Denmark can't. And if Greenland wants to be independent, joining the US would seem like a terrible idea as they will surely have less autonomy under the US than they have now with Denmark.

As for defense, the US already defends Greenland. Not that there's anyone to defend them from - who is going to attack Greenland, an island of mostly ice in the Arctic Ocean with only friendly countries nearby?

And Greenland has been associated with Norway and Denmark for over 1000 years - as far before Columbus as we are after him.
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red sox 777
08/20/19 3:03:32 AM
#167:


Also, obviously it's in the interest of the US to acquire Greenland to get a source of cheap natural resources including those rare earths that China has such a huge market share in. It's very useful to have an alternate source for the trade war! But it's not in Greenland's interest to sell to the US for cheap, or worse, to have American companies simply extract it from the land and pay nothing. And what happens when the trade war ends and China floods the market with their huge supply of rare earths?
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Jakyl25
08/20/19 8:02:53 AM
#168:


Corrik7 posted...

It never had a chance cuz a 2/3rd majority didn't exist in the Senate and Clinton's popularity soared during the process. Lol.


What happened in the next election though?
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Jakyl25
08/20/19 8:08:41 AM
#169:


Corrik7 posted...
Again, Trump will never be removed from office via impeachment proceedings because he cannot be indicted with a republican senate. It is a pointless headline to care about.

It literally is only being spung up to keep it in the news to try and hurt Trump upon re-election. Pointless.


I find this surprising coming from you considering how much you respect law and order.

Are you admitting that our government is too partisan to ever function properly?
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red sox 777
08/20/19 11:25:44 AM
#170:


Jakyl25 posted...
Corrik7 posted...
Again, Trump will never be removed from office via impeachment proceedings because he cannot be indicted with a republican senate. It is a pointless headline to care about.

It literally is only being spung up to keep it in the news to try and hurt Trump upon re-election. Pointless.


I find this surprising coming from you considering how much you respect law and order.

Are you admitting that our government is too partisan to ever function properly?


I think it's clear that Trump has already been completely and totally exonerated. That's why the Senate is sure to acquit him should the House embark on a partisan witch hunt.

Let's move on to more pressing issues, like prosecuting Hillary Clinton for her decades of crime.
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ChaosTonyV4
08/20/19 12:31:18 PM
#171:


https://twitter.com/msnbc/status/1163768137201750018?s=21

Dr. Jill Biden urges voters to consider her husband's electability, saying: "your candidate might be better on, I dont know, healthcare than Joe is, but youve got to look at whos going to win this election."

Wow, Im convinced!
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red sox 777
08/20/19 12:40:55 PM
#172:


ChaosTonyV4 posted...
https://twitter.com/msnbc/status/1163768137201750018?s=21

Dr. Jill Biden urges voters to consider her husband's electability, saying: "your candidate might be better on, I dont know, healthcare than Joe is, but youve got to look at whos going to win this election."

Wow, Im convinced!


Trump winning in 2020 confirmed. The Democrats are going to nominate the one person who is going to sound completely clueless in a policy debate with Trump and will manage to peel off virtually none of those Obama/Trump voters for precisely that reason.
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Peace___Frog
08/20/19 12:42:56 PM
#173:


Jakyl25 posted...
Corrik7 posted...
Again, Trump will never be removed from office via impeachment proceedings because he cannot be indicted with a republican senate. It is a pointless headline to care about.

It literally is only being spung up to keep it in the news to try and hurt Trump upon re-election. Pointless.


I find this surprising coming from you considering how much you respect law and order.

Are you admitting that our government is too partisan to ever function properly?

Law and order when it's applied to people he dislikes, there's a difference
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Grimlyn
08/20/19 1:03:18 PM
#174:


Biden's new ad campaign is all I'm electable, return to normalcy, and Obama Obama Obama Obama
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Corrik7
08/20/19 1:35:04 PM
#175:


Jakyl25 posted...
I find this surprising coming from you considering how much you respect law and order.

Are you admitting that our government is too partisan to ever function properly?
Welcome to forever. Been saying a 2 party system is broken only for forever.

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Wanglicious
08/20/19 1:46:15 PM
#176:


red sox 777 posted...
The Democrats are going to nominate the one person who is going to sound completely clueless in a policy debate with Trump and will manage to peel off virtually none of those Obama/Trump voters for precisely that reason.


...if you're worried about peeling off votes, Biden's one of the better options the dems have. Yang and Gabbard are both the best but neither's particularly likely right now. that said, either becoming a VP selection does stand out if they're paired with Biden since he's so old and she's definitely one of Biden's best choices.

it's not like Biden is Warren or Harris. those two ain't getting many of his old voters.
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Mr Lasastryke
08/20/19 2:04:29 PM
#177:


bernie is a better option than yang.
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red sox 777
08/20/19 2:04:48 PM
#178:


Wanglicious posted...
red sox 777 posted...
The Democrats are going to nominate the one person who is going to sound completely clueless in a policy debate with Trump and will manage to peel off virtually none of those Obama/Trump voters for precisely that reason.


...if you're worried about peeling off votes, Biden's one of the better options the dems have. Yang and Gabbard are both the best but neither's particularly likely right now. that said, either becoming a VP selection does stand out if they're paired with Biden since he's so old and she's definitely one of Biden's best choices.

it's not like Biden is Warren or Harris. those two ain't getting many of his old voters.


I don't agree. I think Warren would peel off more voters than Biden. Biden can't really distinguish himself from Trump on policies, so he'll just be Trump-lite, or Trump-nice. That won't cut it - if you want the Trump policy set, you want the tough negotiator who is able to get them done, not the clueless windmill who has no idea what he really wants or what's good policy, but seems like a nice person (although really, looking at his record on crime, not that nice!).
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red sox 777
08/20/19 2:07:47 PM
#179:


And when Trump wins again, you can be confident that the moderate Dems will blame the left again. When really it is all the fault of the centrist Dems.
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ChaosTonyV4
08/20/19 2:26:53 PM
#180:


Sorry Ace, Bernie is our first gamer President:

https://gamerant.com/bernie-sanders-gamer/
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LordoftheMorons
08/20/19 2:47:23 PM
#181:


ChaosTonyV4 posted...
Sorry Ace, Bernie is our first gamer President:

https://gamerant.com/bernie-sanders-gamer/


Josh Miller-Lewis, Director of Digital Communications for the Sanders campaign clarified that Sanders is not literally a gamer. "He's a gamer in the same way that he's a millenial," Miller-Lewis said, referencing Sanders' documented popularity with millenials, and his support for values and policies that seem to appeal to the younger generation of voters.


I feel like you would be making fun of Biden or Harris etc if their campaigns had said the same thing...!

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xp1337
08/20/19 2:48:28 PM
#182:


red sox 777 posted...
The Democrats are going to nominate the one person who is going to sound completely clueless in a policy debate with Trump and will manage to peel off virtually none of those Obama/Trump voters for precisely that reason.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-biden-still-leads-democratic-race-warren-climbs-into-second

(As weird as it feels to link to Fox like this, remember their polling outfit is legit (A rated by 538) and their article here has some details and nuances that I don't see even in the formal write-up of the polling with the crosstabs and all.)

Biden leads Trump 50-38. Among those who have a negative view of both Biden and Trump, Biden leads 43-10. lmao.

It's a comprehensive poll really and honestly probably the most devastating one I've seen for Trump yet. They polled Biden, Sanders, Warren, and Harris against Trump. Trump failed to break 40% each time. All four democrats led by at least 6. (Biden 50-38, Sanders 48-39, Warren 46-39, and Harris 45-39.)

The Democratic Party has a net favorability of +6, Republican Party is -13. Trump's net favorability is -14.

Specific to the primary: Biden has held completely steady at 31% from March, Warren surged from 4% to 20%. Sanders cratered from 23% to 10%. Harris held at 8%. Warren leads with voters under 45 and those who identify as "very" liberal. All 4 have very high net favorability among primary voters. Sanders at +71, Warren at +69, Biden at +67, and Harris at +58. Among all voters they're all still positive. Biden +8, Sanders +7, Warren +6, and Harris +1.

Not in the Fox News Article, but in the long form of the poll: https://www.scribd.com/document/422003960/Fox-August-11-13-2019-Complete-National-Topline-August-15-Release

Tariffs are unpopular 29-46 (From 34-45 in May and 36-42 in September 2018). Trump on "Drawing the country together" vs. "Tearing the country apart" is 31-59. Approval for how Trump handled the recent mass shootings is 37-52. People think the Trump administration has made the country less safe from a mass shooting by an American citizen 46-15. Lack of gun laws tops the reasons why people think mass shooting happens so frequently in the US vs other countries.

Background checks favored 90-7, Assault Rifle and Semi-Auto ban at 67-27. Digging into the crosstabs: Background checks are supported by Republicans 89-8 and Gun Owners 93-6. The Assault Rifle/Semi-Auto ban Republicans are split 46-46 (GOP Men against 39-56, GOP Women for 54-36. Gun owners are in favor 53-41.
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Wanglicious
08/20/19 2:50:53 PM
#183:


Mr Lasastryke posted...
bernie is a better option than yang.


2016 bernie sure. 2020 bernie, nah, though i'd put him in 3rd. i think it was something between 10-15% known overlap in voterbase between those two? pretty sure Yang and Gabbard are both a bigger one, the former is heavily focused on economics and the latter is heavily focused on military.

realistically you've basically got 30% who won't vote for trump, 30% who will vote for trump, and the remaining 60%.

red sox 777 posted...
I think Warren would peel off more voters than Biden.


i see him appeal more to that 60% than Hillary did and if he gets a strong VP (Yang, Gabbard) he'd get a few more going his way.

Warren i see appeal to that group less so she'd just kind of leave a giant hole which Trump would ultimately benefit from. her main hope is getting new voters, not existing ones. those won't pick her over him.
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LordoftheMorons
08/20/19 2:53:02 PM
#184:


xp1337 posted...
Tariffs are unpopular 29-46 (From 34-45 in May and 36-42 in September 2018). Trump on "Drawing the country together" vs. "Tearing the country apart" is 31-59. Approval for how Trump handled the recent mass shootings is 37-52. People think the Trump administration has made the country less safe from a mass shooting by an American shooting 46-15. Lack of gun laws tops the reasons why people think mass shooting happens so frequently in the US vs other countries.
Gotta wonder how many of those "drawing the country together" responders just said so because it was the pro-Trump response rather than because they actually believed it. Even if you like him it should be pretty damn obvious that he's not uniting the country!

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Corrik7
08/20/19 2:53:39 PM
#185:


LordoftheMorons posted...
Gotta wonder how many of those "drawing the country together" responders just said so because it was the pro-Trump response rather than because they actually believed it. Even if you like him it should be pretty damn obvious that he's not uniting the country!
Agreed. Been very poor at being a uniter.

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Ashethan
08/20/19 2:58:37 PM
#186:


AOC will be the first gamer President.

Republicans will complain that she spends $60 of tax payer money for Super Smash Bros. Maximum for the Nintendo SwitchV (despite her paying for it out of her own salary). FOX News will say she's showing weakness by maining Donkey Kong, and making America the laughing stock of the world for playing an E rated game.
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Reg
08/20/19 3:02:29 PM
#187:


LordoftheMorons posted...
I feel like you would be making fun of Biden or Harris etc if their campaigns had said the same thing...!

Given Biden's history with Millenials, he would absolutely deserve it because it'd be one of the least authentic things he'd ever done. And I'm not sure Harris would get mocked for this like Biden would.
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LordoftheMorons
08/20/19 3:02:58 PM
#188:


If I remember correctly from a Daily Show interview, Bill Clinton is now a casual gamer (though I doubt he was while he was president). Some of the younger people running this time are probably also gamers (I know Booker is a big comic book fan).

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LordoftheMorons
08/20/19 3:05:34 PM
#189:


Reg posted...
Given Biden's history with Millenials, he would absolutely deserve it because it'd be one of the least authentic things he'd ever done. And I'm not sure Harris would get mocked for this like Biden would.
I'm more of making this comment from the "I would make fun of them all" angle than the "I would make fun of none of them" angle

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Reg
08/20/19 3:07:05 PM
#190:


LordoftheMorons posted...
Reg posted...
Given Biden's history with Millenials, he would absolutely deserve it because it'd be one of the least authentic things he'd ever done. And I'm not sure Harris would get mocked for this like Biden would.
I'm more of making this comment from the "I would make fun of them all" angle than the "I would make fun of none of them" angle

I agree it's a bit of a silly thing, but running to Biden in response to it is just a uniquely bad look <_<
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xp1337
08/20/19 3:09:02 PM
#191:


LordoftheMorons posted...
If I remember correctly from a Daily Show interview, Bill Clinton is now a casual gamer (though I doubt he was while he was president). Some of the younger people running this time are probably also gamers (I know Booker is a big comic book fan).

just waiting for the day we get Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charmander asked at a debate
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Wanglicious
08/20/19 3:17:35 PM
#192:


xp1337 posted...
LordoftheMorons posted...
If I remember correctly from a Daily Show interview, Bill Clinton is now a casual gamer (though I doubt he was while he was president). Some of the younger people running this time are probably also gamers (I know Booker is a big comic book fan).

just waiting for the day we get Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charmander asked at a debate


wouldn't even be the first Pokemon reference on the debate stage.
still Herman Cain's greatest moment.
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Dancedreamer
08/20/19 3:18:35 PM
#193:


Hillary Clinton played Tetris on gameboy.

Also pretty sure Obama has played some video games.
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ChaosTonyV4
08/20/19 3:20:49 PM
#194:


Reg posted...
LordoftheMorons posted...
I feel like you would be making fun of Biden or Harris etc if their campaigns had said the same thing...!

Given Biden's history with Millenials, he would absolutely deserve it because it'd be one of the least authentic things he'd ever done. And I'm not sure Harris would get mocked for this like Biden would.


Bernie has publicly called for unionization in the game industry, and has been streaming on Twitch.

If the others led the way on either of those things, Id be forced to accept their gamer cred or that they care about gamers.

Also Im only being 75% serious, because the idea of gamers as a class of people is a great meme.
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Mr Lasastryke
08/20/19 3:22:46 PM
#195:


ChaosTonyV4 posted...
Bernie has publicly called for unionization in the game industry, and has been streaming on Twitch.


i've been following bernie's twitch channel since he created it and i've never seen him play a game on there. all he's streamed so far has been speeches and Q&A sessions and stuff like that.
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ChaosTonyV4
08/20/19 3:23:38 PM
#196:


I didnt say he played games on Twitch.
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Mr Lasastryke
08/20/19 3:25:06 PM
#197:


then why does he get "gamer cred" from twitch streaming? >_>
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Dels
08/20/19 3:25:59 PM
#198:


Ashethan posted...
AOC will be the first gamer President.

Republicans will complain that she spends $60 of tax payer money for Super Smash Bros. Maximum for the Nintendo SwitchV (despite her paying for it out of her own salary). FOX News will say she's showing weakness by maining Donkey Kong, and making America the laughing stock of the world for playing an E rated game.


AOC does play League of Legends.

https://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/10/14/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-plays-league-of-legends/
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ChaosTonyV4
08/20/19 3:26:07 PM
#199:


No reason, just felt like it.
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LordoftheMorons
08/20/19 3:35:58 PM
#200:


https://twitter.com/geoffreyvs/status/1163829424497864705?s=21

Up to 10 candidates for the third debate (Castro just qualified)

Ughhhh Steyers probably gonna be the one to fuck this up and make us sit through two nights again

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Dels
08/20/19 3:37:12 PM
#201:


Isn't two nights better? Gives each person more time to talk.
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