Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 234: Epsteins;Gate

(+) Yeah! (+)

by the way if you think Wyoming is a pretty pathetic state, Greenland has only about 55,000 people living there

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Oof, Corrik walking straight into the point I was making.

Yeah, damn Corrik making a joke.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

Some really good and some not so good polls recently! I know it is still so far out but I can't stop checking this every day.

Good: Sanders UP 6 in New Hampshire. I can't remember the last time I saw him up in a poll so even a single state poll is awesome. Particularly since it is so early in the primary cycle.
Warren down only 3 in a general election poll (Biden 23, Warren 20, Sanders 16).

Bad: Most other general polls have Biden up in the 15 point or so range. I'd need more polls like the Warren -3 one to be confident in any sort of trend
Biden up 20 in SC. I have this worry that even if Bernie/Warren manage to pull out some states in the northeast or coasts that Biden just completely dominates the southern/Appalachian states and he still wins the nomination.

I mean, tbqh, aside from the "it's so far out" thing. You really want to zero in on IA and NH, IMO. Barring a disaster, Biden will lead elsewhere/nationally until then.

You should take a trip down memory lane and see what happened in 2008 here.

At about this point the race (August) Clinton led nationally by like 15-20 points. In SC, she'd be leading Obama by 5-11 points. (Obama had an outlier poll up 4 near the end of July but I mean real outlier, she was up 15-20 points around there, including by that pollster a bit earlier. You don't see Obama lead in SC from August all the way into December. They trade the lead that month, then a switch flips after Iowa and Obama is leading by 10 points and never trails in a SC poll again. He wins the state by 28.

Hell, outside a single outlier in January (of 2007, so think this past January on our timeline) Obama never led a NH poll until December (there was a tie poll in July.)

My point being, Biden is seen as the "safe", "electable" candidate and so a lot of the base is defaulting to him. If he gets beat in IA and/or NH all of a sudden that's no longer true and I think you could see movement fast towards whoever wins those states. OTOH, if Biden wins them we're pretty much done here. And all of this isn't factoring in debates or gaffes and all the time we have until the actual primaries.

tl;dr: you're inevitable until you're not

*I had to rely on Wikipedia for 2008 primary poll lists because 538 doesn't go back that far and everywhere else seemed to suck at compiling nice lists.
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CelesMyUserName posted...

https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1161943135422992385

for the most ~*~eLeCtAbLe~*~ candidate go to joe... 3 0... 3 3... oh

Its kind of lame because people are putting the hitjob on him on twitter for things that do not properly describe him.

His problem with these is literally hes just old. Age is going to get everybody.

You've got a bunch of people calling him unlikable/hidden which just arent true. Hes a perfectly likable guy, he was pretty damn good in the debates with Obama and used to be a very good speaker.

Literally just too old to be President now.

Someone said it before, but one of these lesser candidates that needs to drop out needs to take the dive and actually call him out on the big thing wrong with him(Hes old).
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Swawell did that in the first debate. It didn't really stick. Maybe now that he's been screwing up more.
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

Swawell did that in the first debate. It didn't really stick. Maybe now that he's been screwing up more.

nah, like more on point. That came off as more "pass the torch" on issues and such and less "you are literally old and making mistakes because your brain isn't functioning up to the level of being president".
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You have to remember, most of the electorate is still old. So making capability due to age an issue is political suicide, but its also true enough that people can see it and be turned off from a candidate.
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Corrik7 posted...

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Oof, Corrik walking straight into the point I was making.

Yeah, damn Corrik making a joke.

Yeah and your joke proved my point, lol.
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George Conway continues to have a better understanding of Trump than anyone else:
https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1162210893997805568

By similar reasoning, I think it would be incorrect to call Trump a white supremacist, even though he is certainly a massive racist. Though he's perfectly happy to prop up white supremacists because they praise him, he's not one himself because he doesn't care about the "white race" since the only person he cares about is Donald Trump.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

By similar reasoning, I think it would be incorrect to call Trump a white supremacist, even though he is certainly a massive racist. Though he's perfectly happy to prop up white supremacists because they praise him, he's not one himself because he doesn't care about the "white race" since the only person he cares about is Donald Trump.

this is how people justify voting for Trump. It doesn't make it necessarily true.
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red13n posted...

this is how people justify voting for Trump. It doesn't make it necessarily true.

To clarify, I'm absolutely not saying as an excuse for Trump. He's a racist piece of shit, and he has enabled white supremacy to openly manifest itself in the United states like it hasn't for like 50 years. His actions on issues related to race are completely reprehensible. What I am saying is that the thing that motivates that racism is not a desire for white dominance or something; that would require him to care about something (albeit something warped and disgusting) other than himself. Rather, the motivating factor is always his narcissism.

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LordoftheMorons posted...

To clarify, I'm absolutely not saying as an excuse for Trump. He's a racist piece of shit, and he has enabled white supremacy to openly manifest itself in the United states like it hasn't for like 50 years. His actions on issues related to race are completely reprehensible. What I am saying is that the thing that motivates that racism is not a desire for white dominance or something; that would require him to care about something (albeit something warped and disgusting) other than himself. Rather, the motivating factor is always his narcissism.

If you are willing to use race for your narcissistic personality, you are a racist. Saying you are more one when you are the other is pointless rhetoric people use to justify supporting Trump.

You have a whole bunch of "Yeah that is racist but" coming from his voters. It minimizes the importance of him being a fucking racist asshole.
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I said that he is a racist!

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but less of a racist than narcissist. But racist isn't something you dedicate a value to. If you are a racist, you are a racist. You arent somehow lesser racist.
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factually, trump is racist of is very own accord, of his very own personal beliefs of white supremacy

there is zero value at all in offloading his burden of racist filth onto other means, the dude has been racist his entire living career years before his presidential bid, raised as such by his KKK father
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Still not sure you guys are really following what I'm saying. Somebody can be really fucking racist without being a white supremacist.

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no I follow what you are saying, but you simply have it wrong.

He is a racist and a narcissist. They might have different priorities in his head but saying he is somehow more X than racist is incorrect as applying a value to how racist someone can be is dangerous at this point. Saying "he is racist but" is damaging in today's world and people shouldnt do that.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Somebody can be really fucking racist without being a white supremacist.

honestly, the moment he said there were good people in a crowd of literal white supremacists is when this stopped being relevant.
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but Trump is a white supremacist that dehumanizes and vilifies minorities out of his own personal views on race

there's no hairs that need to be split here, Trump sees black people as criminals unfit for counting his money (per 90s quote) let alone higher office

literally a lifelong registered Democrat until 63 when Obama took office and he suddenly got into politics full swing from birtherism to his own presidency immediately following, his entire foray into politics was straight-up founded in his own feelings of white supremacy
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I think it's the opposite. If someone doesn't understand Trump's narcissism, they can look at him saying nice things about Ben Carson or whichever other person of color Trump likes because he likes people who praise him and say "see? He's not a racist!" But those instances aren't incompatible with Trump being a racist at all. He still thinks less of minorities, but his narcissism causes him to reflect praise.

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to Trump, the black people who praise him are nothing but props - he doesn't give a rat's ass about them beyond their support for himself, much like Trump's relationship with LGBT groups that supported him on the campaign trail. sure he'll take anyone's support - because it's not about them, their entire presence is as a mere support to himself and he doesn't have to reciprocate any of it

it doesn't in the slightest bit at all detract from the white supremacy that is very much the embedded essence of Trump - yes he is also a narcissist, but he's still a white supremacist and there's zero reason at all to treat them as exclusive traits

Like do you think Steve King isn't a white supremacist? Because he too is capable of putting white supremacy aside to embrace Diamond & Silk out of political necessity. He doesn't actually give a shit about these people, they're just convenient tools to bolster himself with.

Accepting someone's support of you is a completely insignificant gesture, there is no dilemma of "oh hold up he's not denigrating Ben Carson", if that's enough to trip someone up they don't want to understand and Trump being a white supremacist isn't decided by whether or not the willfully obtuse will see it.
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Of course Steve King is a white supremacist. That's his whole thing.

What I'm saying is that Trump doesn't give a shit about "advancing the white race," which is what white supremacy is about. It's not "merely" thinking that white people are better than other races. The only person he cares about is himself.

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: a person who believes that the white race is inherently superior to other races and that white people should have control over people of other races

noun
the belief, theory, or doctrine that white people are inherently superior to people from all other racial groups, especially black people, and are therefore rightfully the dominant group in any society.

White supremacy or white supremacism is the racist belief that white people are superior to people of other races and therefore should be dominant over them.

noun [ U ]
uk /wat suprem..si/ us /wat suprem..si/
the belief that people with pale skin are better than people with darker skin

Stop making this into an insanely specific ideology with an amplitude for 'caring'. He's the commander in chief pushing white supremacist ideology with greater impact than anyone else on the face of the planet, how much he 'cares' about it is well past the point of irrelevant

Trump doesn't have to desire to be "advancing the white race" because in his mind the white race is already king, where non-whites should remain in their place beneath. Only now he sees it necessary to defend white America from the invaders who are replacing them in order to maintain Trump's natural order of white supremacy. It's not that it's an ideal Trump needs to search for, it's how he already sees the world and what he's afraid of the world changing away from.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

George Conway continues to have a better understanding of Trump than anyone else:
https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1162210893997805568

By similar reasoning, I think it would be incorrect to call Trump a white supremacist, even though he is certainly a massive racist. Though he's perfectly happy to prop up white supremacists because they praise him, he's not one himself because he doesn't care about the "white race" since the only person he cares about is Donald Trump.

This isn't unique to George Conway, it's almost literally what his supporters use to defend him. "He's not racist! He doesn't care about anyone else equally, he's only interested in results!"
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red13n posted...

You have a whole bunch of "Yeah that is racist but" coming from his voters.

his voters say that? i think the typical corrik response ("nope, not racist") is a lot more common.
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Mr Lasastryke posted...

his voters say that? i think the typical corrik response ("nope, not racist") is a lot more common.

There are people that say both. Its a lot of "The comments are racist but".

I know there was some moron on TV the other day asked about whether he thought a particular Trump comment was racist and he said "Yeah that is racist but its ok because they said worse about him". Always a but and justification. We have to stop giving people these outs to justify being racist assholes. People shouldn't be ok following a racist because -x- reason.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

This isn't unique to George Conway, it's almost literally what his supporters use to defend him. "He's not racist! He doesn't care about anyone else equally, he's only interested in results!"

For like the fifth time in this conversation, Trump IS a racist. I never said he wasnt, and specifically said that he was.

red13n posted...

There are people that say both. Its a lot of "The comments are racist but".

I know there was some moron on TV the other day asked about whether he thought a particular Trump comment was racist and he said "Yeah that is racist but its ok because they said worse about him". Always a but and justification. We have to stop giving people these outs to justify being racist assholes. People shouldn't be ok following a racist because -x- reason.

I also never said that this makes anything hes ever said or done okay. Im not saying that hes any better than the white supremacists hes enabling.

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I dont think anyone is saying youre saying hes not racist.

Were saying his supporters frequently use he cares so much about results he doesnt even see race, it just LOOKS racist but isnt.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Of course Steve King is a white supremacist. That's his whole thing.

What I'm saying is that Trump doesn't give a shit about "advancing the white race," which is what white supremacy is about. It's not "merely" thinking that white people are better than other races. The only person he cares about is himself.

This is a dumb thing to get caught up on. I was caught up on it too! Around the time of his election it was easy to view Trump as a racist accomplice to the "real" white supremacists he was surrounded by, like Bannon. Their goals aligned, and they were useful to each other, and Trump was an enabler of white supremacy even if he was too dumb or self-centered to subscribe to a specific ideology.

But white supremacy is more than an ideology. It's a structure Trump benefits from and he uses his status as a racist with power to further its goals. So he's more than an enabler, he's an active participant. The practical purposes of what he's doing amount to white supremacy, so it isn't inaccurate to call him or his actions white supremacy. Even if you can't necessarily explain every single one of his actions through an ideological lens, this doesn't stop being true.
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...And you people tease vlado for his JRPG final boss-like views on "Globalism"? Good lord.
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Deciding exactly what specific flavour of racist Trump is and the precise line where his contempt for others ends and his overwhelming obsession with himself begins is definitely a vital discussion to have
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Trump isn't racist. People just like to toss the word around like it is candy for shock value and to demonize someone they don't like. Same as the usage of Nazi.

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Corrik7 posted...

Trump isn't racist. People just like to toss the word around like it is candy for shock value and to demonize someone they don't like. Same as the usage of Nazi.

Trump has rewired their brains. They are just typing out these lengthy jeremiads about the supposedly overt racism and white supremacy coming from the White House because it is the only thing that can restart their dopamine levels. They are literally physically damaged from 2016.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

For like the fifth time in this conversation, Trump IS a racist. I never said he wasnt, and specifically said that he was.

It's the white supremacist denial that people are taking issue with. Trump is a white supremacist.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Trump has rewired their brains. They are just typing out these lengthy jeremiads about the supposedly overt racism and white supremacy coming from the White House because it is the only thing that can restart their dopamine levels. They are literally physically damaged from 2016.

Take your pick from this long (and incomplete) list of examples:
https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racist-racism-history

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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Trump has rewired their brains. They are just typing out these lengthy jeremiads about the supposedly overt racism and white supremacy coming from the White House because it is the only thing that can restart their dopamine levels. They are literally physically damaged from 2016.

Yeah, I have yet to see Trump try to make another race a second class citizen yet. But, you know. Supposedly a racist! *Rolls eyes*

But, hey, these are the same people who think Michael Scott was racist also. *Shrug*

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Corrik7 posted...

Yeah, I have yet to see Trump try to make another race a second class citizen yet. But, you know. Supposedly a racist! *Rolls eyes*

Send them back?

Birther conspiracy?

Those are pretty openly racist. Not from America if you arent white.
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Corrik7 posted...

Yeah, I have yet to see Trump try to make another race a second class citizen yet. But, you know. Supposedly a racist! *Rolls eyes*

What if I told you...

That racism can include attitudes other than "oppress everyone who doesn't look like me, no exceptions ever"

?
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/11/22/trump-retweeted-a-very-wrong-set-of-numbers-on-race-and-murder/

You don't retweet stuff like that if you aren't a racist. Because you know better. Like if someone retweeted something saying "Irish people are 400x more likely to die from drunk driving than non-Irish". Like, the fact is so stupidly inaccurate that the only way you ever believe this is if you have some bias against the people slandered in the first place.

No one goes "oh jeez yeah whites killed by blacks 81% that sounds accurate" unless you believe black people are violent and dangerous and just out there committing murders.
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Corrik7 posted...

Trump isn't racist. People just like to toss the word around like it is candy for shock value and to demonize someone they don't like. Same as the usage of Nazi.

I'm really curious if you know what racist means.
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Panthera posted...

Corrik7 posted...

Yeah, I have yet to see Trump try to make another race a second class citizen yet. But, you know. Supposedly a racist! *Rolls eyes*

What if I told you...

That racism can include attitudes other than "oppress everyone who doesn't look like me, no exceptions ever"

?

Also yes this is such a stringent goalpost that almost no one would be racist. Like only the most virulent, insane guys hanging out at KKK meetings would qualify.
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Lots of dopamine rushes ITT. I hope this is helping you guys heal.
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Corrik is like if that R. Kelly Dave Chappelle jury skit was about white people and racism.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I dont think anyone is saying youre saying hes not racist.

Were saying his supporters frequently use he cares so much about results he doesnt even see race, it just LOOKS racist but isnt.

Also, I almost never see this. Much more common is something along the lines of "lmao snowflake you think everything is racist that isn't racist stop playing the race card". The hand wringing is reserved almost exclusively for like Mitt Romney and Marco Rubio. Just denying it is racist is like 10x more common from my experience.
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Suprak the Stud posted...

Also, I almost never see this. Much more common is something along the lines of "lmao snowflake you think everything is racist that isn't racist stop playing the race card". The hand wringing is reserved almost exclusively for like Mitt Romney and Marco Rubio. Just denying it is racist is like 10x more common from my experience.

what you see on 4chan isn't equivalent to real life.
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That isn't what you'd see on 4chan.

Mostly because no one on 4chan would accuse anyone of racism unless it was in the context of "hell yeah good job with the racism dude".
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I was obviously exaggerating some for effect, but I think the prevailing thoughts amongst most conservatives is that most of the things he says/does isn't racist.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/30/republicans-reactions-trumps-tweets-are-part-long-american-history-denying-racism/
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replace 4chan with whatever website you are browsing where they talk like that then.
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Shaduln posted...

I'm really curious if you know what racist means.

noun
a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that one's own racial group is superior or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

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If liberals' goals were just to demonize Trump, why would they have to invent charges of racism instead just turning to any of the hundreds of other shitty things he's verifiably done? You really don't have to make things up about Trump to make him out as a demon when you can, for example, just point to anything whatsoever that he posts on Twitter and let that speak for itself.

Or y'know maybe he's just racist in addition to all those other things.
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