Board 8 > Umineko readthrough part 4 by Arria (blind) and Kira (2nd reading) SPOILERS OKAY

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Eerieka
11/16/19 8:01:17 AM
#151:


Dlanor refers to herself as a human and we spend a good minute trying to figure out THAT context. She did say ningen in Japanese, so it wasnt a translation error. Weird.

The Chiesters ask for the characters invitation. Dlanor gives her hers.
A: Like theres ANYONE else who looks like her!

Gaap asks her to respond to the blue truth
Dlanor: Please fill out the application
A: I love my rules lawyer characters. This reminds me of something in the Dresden Files. Yes, Dresden, youre in MY court now. Please continue fucking with me.
Strike-through and white out is also prohibited!
Chiester 410: They say the same thing applies to Comiket!
A: Um, Ryukishi? Are you okay, honey?

K: I always think of this scene when you talk about Dlanor being a rules-lawyer
A: God she is my FAVORITE little murder hobo right now!

A: Guess what, numb nuts? She just GAVE you the answer. She said in red that she cant answer that!

Featherine and Ange
Ange: Doesnt this violate the rules!?
A: Also: YOURE THE AUTHOR
Ange: You cant give a quiz and then refuse to give the answer!
A: Lack of an answer IS an answer!

Ange: So what happens next?
A: Porn for Erika. Note I dont specify which Erika
K: *chuckles* BOTH of us.
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Mega Mana
11/17/19 8:41:32 AM
#152:


A: Oh, is it because its raining? Good luck putting tape on a wet window!

...****, I wish I thought of that...
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Eerieka
11/17/19 9:22:15 AM
#153:


It makes sense, too. Sometimes I get so caught up in Umineko logic I forget to real-world logic.
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Mega Mana
11/17/19 1:02:28 PM
#154:


Eerieka posted...
It makes sense, too. Sometimes I get so caught up in Umineko logic I forget to real-world logic.


Right??

There's is one thing in the locked room later I still feel is a justifiable theory and want to posit around thst time
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Eerieka
11/20/19 11:04:34 AM
#155:


Would love to hear it, Mega Mana. Don't forget to mention it when the time comes. :)

~~~

The wedding begins.
K: This might be my favorite wedding in all fiction
A: I mean, we started with Chiesters and Dlanor on screen!

Furfur and Zepar announce: Let us welcome the bride and groom as they walk down the hall in the shackles called marriage!
Arria nearly CHOKES on the coconut snack shes eating.
A: Im glad I didnt read this prior to my own wedding.

The stakes come in behind Erika and Battler. They are all complaining about Battler being dumb
A: I adore the stakes
Then Beelzebub and Asmodeus only care about food and love
A: *snort* These two

Lambda and Bern make a bet on whether Beato will come
Lambda: I bet she comes with certainty
Bern: I bet she comes miraculously
A: *laughs* You two are assholes

Zepar and Furfur: On behalf of the groom who cannot speak, let Erika say the oath for both of them!
K: Because THATS how weddings work!
A: Uh-huh!
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Eerieka
11/25/19 12:36:48 PM
#156:


bump. Haven't read with Arria in a while. Gonna have to drag it out even more.
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Eerieka
11/29/19 11:05:50 AM
#157:


We get the picture of Battler on his knees and his hand in Erikas.
A; I love this picture.
K: Me too Also, the game starts now.
A; *perks up*

The ring has eight thorns. Eight is kinda like. my number, which Arria picked up on right away
A: I like that is has eight you bitch.

This scene is basically a rape scene, but my god do I love it.
A: I love how Ryukishi turned the usual trope around. Usually its the bride whos all like oh my god, its. its too big! Itll never fit! And here its the bride doing it to the groom.
K: Yep!
A: Wow, these are lines from just about every bodice-ripper ever written but in reverse! Impressive work.

Erika: Say Forgive me, Erika-sama. Ill pretend to be a dog and wear a collar if youll make me not have to wear that ring!
A: Is this the line?
K: Thats the line! You win!
A: Oh good! Because there have been times thats like oh, thats a good line but no, not perfect. This one is perfect! It SCREAMS Erika. Both of you!
K: Yes!
K: Also, my headcanon for this scene is that the ring is actually a cock-ring
A: Oh yeah, same here! I dont know what that says about both of us.

After the ring has been jammed in
A: Didnt I say earlier on that there are easier ways to get a ring off? Butter or something? I rescind that statement.
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Eerieka
12/02/19 9:19:19 PM
#158:


A: Oh, theres a dark thought. They keep saying the bullet will kill anything it touches. What if Shannon aims at Jessica? That would essentially kill Kanon.
K: Hmm. Yeah, it would. I dont know if the demons set out a rule that the bullets can only kill the combatants.

Back to the duel, and Beatrice is freaking out over why Shannon and Kanon have to fight because why cant they just be in love and live their own lives?
A: Honestly, the trope of the love triangle is pissing me off in fiction in general.

Beatrice: But there are four people here!
Furfur and Zepar: Actually furniture is sub-human!
A: Oh man, there are so many racist jokes that could go here. Ill refrain.

A: Also, I imagine Shannon and Kanon are just waiting around like.. *Arria gets up to get something in the kitchen. Which standing, she poses the way she imagines them standing, waiting* Shannons gonna be like Were trying to have a duel here! Give your history lesson some other time!
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Bossman_Coolguy
12/05/19 5:18:46 PM
#159:


So I brought up this briefly on discord but I figured I'd ask here:

Knox's 5th Commandent was omitted from the Decalogue. "No Chinaman (foreigner)" can appear in the story.

I was thinking while at work...maybe it was omitted because Erika actually is the foreigner in the story? I mean she does randomly kinda appear out of nowhere, being written to survive a boat crash or whatever. I originally thought it was because it was racist/they're all Japanese but yeah


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Eerieka
12/07/19 2:25:40 AM
#160:


Like the other instances of the Decalogue, I think the 5th technically IS in Umineko, even if the game itself says it's "unused." Consider the spirit of the advice, rather than what it literally means.

I think Knox's inclusion of the rule was twofold. First, there were a lot of racist portrayals of Chinese people in novels back in his day and he felt it was damaging the integrity of a mystery novel for the culprit to be a racist stereotype.

But secondly, I think there's an essence of "your characters need to have comprehensible motives to your audience." Knox wants readers to have a chance at solving the mystery, but if the final "whydunnit" is something like "this foreign person believed that killing a virgin girl during a full moon and eating her pancreas will make him immortal", then no Westerner is going to figure that out on their own.

I think the reason the rule was excluded in Umineko was because no one was a foreigner to the intended Japanese audience (I would say Erika is Japanese, even in a witchy/fictional sense), but moreover because Sayo's reason for committing murder isn't culture-specific (to a culture unknown to most Japanese).

It's also possibly Ryukishi wasn't sure how to rewrite the rule to fit his story while also inserting it in any meaningful way. Trying to imagine any scene where Battler would come up with an idea, only for Dlanor to shoot it down with this rule, and I can't think of anything.

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JeffreyRaze
12/08/19 1:16:53 PM
#161:


"The culprit was a Martian, using space technology! They were murdering to get blood to fuel the mothership! Aliens don't count as people, so the Martain isn't one of the people on the island!"

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Eerieka
12/09/19 5:01:32 AM
#162:


JeffreyRaze posted...
"The culprit was a Martian, using space technology! They were murdering to get blood to fuel the mothership! Aliens don't count as people, so the Martain isn't one of the people on the island!"

I would have loved to see Battler use this at some point, actually, even if just as a joke. And yeah, that would have been a good way to include the 5th rule.

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Eerieka
12/13/19 10:57:13 AM
#163:


They go on about how people are only allowed to love one other person.
A: this is the 21st century! Its okay!
K: I mean, this is literally not the 21st century
A: You can still love your kids!
Zepar then brings exactly that situation up.
A: I get that theyre talking about eros, but
K: And in Japanese, theyre saying ai with all the implications that brings.

Beato: I dont understand!
A: Beato, darling. You speak for all of us
K: (internally thinking that it makes perfect sense)
A: except for that bitch *points to me*
We laugh.

A: So in each game, Shannon and Kanon sometimes stop being furniture. Do they become furniture again at the start of each game?
K: Yes?
A: Because they remembered previous games. So is it like Congrats! Youre human! Oh, the game ends, youre back to being furniture!

We get the art of Kanon shooting Shannon, then Shannon stands up
A: Oh, she fell down! Clever girl Also, I love her socks
*laugh*
A: I know, I know! Serious scene. But really! Look at those nice socks!

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Eerieka
12/17/19 9:43:06 PM
#164:


They talk about how the duel was a farce and theyll see each other in the Golden Land.
A: So if I hadnt asked you about it, they would have said it right here anyway!
Shannon and Kanon basically say see ya later yeah, you too
A: Also, you are about to kill a man/woman, NOT end a phone call!

Shannon kills Kanon. Jessica has a screaming fit.
Shannon: George, I have no won the right to love you
A: Gonna be honest. If I were George right now, Id be like well, Im gonna see myself out

Zepar and Furfur blessed Shannon into becoming a whole Human
A: And now shes reached her final evolution?

Elder Beato screams for Chick-Beato.
A: its really weird hearing Beatrice scream her own name.

Flashback of Battler talking to Sayo
A: I really hope this doesnt play out the way I think it does.
Battler: Id really love to rub those boobs!
A: After all the bullshit this episode, I bet the voice actor was really glad to have this break in tension
K: To be fair, I bet all Daisuke Ono has said this session was uhh and I wont. forgive you

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Eerieka
12/22/19 8:47:25 PM
#165:


A: Gonna be honest. If I had not read the previous five episodes, I would STILL be as confused as I am now!

At the end of the scene, I took a break to go to the bathroom and I told Arria to think about the scene.
When I came back she said that shed come to the belief that Shannon created the persona of Beatrice and has been committing the murders. She even came to the conclusion that because Shannon was the name given to her by her employer, its not a name she cares for or is attached to. But Beatrice is a name she CHOSE to take. Sure, Beatrice already exists as a legend and a person: Kinzos mistress, their child, etc. Itd be like me saying Im now Betsy Ross. That legend exists. No ones stopping me from pretending I have the soul of Betsy Ross inside me! So Shannon and Beatrice are two halves of the same person. I then asked her what Kanons role was, and she still hasnt discovered Shannon=Kanon. She suggested that Kanon was another servant who was initially roped into the murders, but then got in her way and wanted to stop them because he wanted to protect Jessica. The duel represents something that really did happen, and Shannon had to kill Kanon.

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Mega Mana
12/24/19 2:29:35 PM
#166:


Eerieka posted...
A: Gonna be honest. If I had not read the previous five episodes, I would STILL be as confused as I am now!

At the end of the scene, I took a break to go to the bathroom and I told Arria to think about the scene.
When I came back she said that shed come to the belief that Shannon created the persona of Beatrice and has been committing the murders. She even came to the conclusion that because Shannon was the name given to her by her employer, its not a name she cares for or is attached to. But Beatrice is a name she CHOSE to take. Sure, Beatrice already exists as a legend and a person: Kinzos mistress, their child, etc. Itd be like me saying Im now Betsy Ross. That legend exists. No ones stopping me from pretending I have the soul of Betsy Ross inside me! So Shannon and Beatrice are two halves of the same person. I then asked her what Kanons role was, and she still hasnt discovered Shannon=Kanon. She suggested that Kanon was another servant who was initially roped into the murders, but then got in her way and wanted to stop them because he wanted to protect Jessica. The duel represents something that really did happen, and Shannon had to kill Kanon.

Oooooh, getting so very, very close to the truth!

That, at this point, I was so very, very far away from.

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Eerieka
12/28/19 9:13:57 AM
#167:


Lol yeah, I was absolutely confounded when I read this myself. I'd read the rumors about Shkanon=Kanon, but at that time I couldn't quite wrap my head around it

~~~

Kanon says This is my sin.
A: Is Kanon the opposite of Battler?
K: I think at this point, you might be able to figure out what Battlers sin was.
A: Six years ago, he
K: He had that conversation with Shannon
A: Then cast her off. No, thats not the right word. He gave her those ideas and she ran with them.
K: But what did he do?
A: He betrayed her?
K: He never came back.
A: Of course. Because life happened. But Shannon was young and confused and didnt know what happened. She thought Battler betrayed her. Then George came and got her out of that dark place, and she fell in love with him, too.

We talked some more and, piece by piece, I think shes starting to solve the mystery. Shes started to entertain the idea that Kanon doesnt exist. I had drawn a diagram of the rooms to show which doors and windows were sealed, and I had written names, plus everyone else in blue ink (I would have used red, but I dont have a red pen lol). I think this picture helped.

As we read the scene just before Beatrice crashes the party, Arria said I want to find out if my theories are right!

Erika started to scream Beatrices name.
A: Honestly, just from the B part I thought she was about to scream bitch although in this game, theres not a big difference

Theres a fight scene involving pretty much everyone.
A: I know this is all just show-dressing, but I love the aesthetic.

Dlanor convinces the Seven Sisters to attack Gertrude because theyd be serving Battler that way.
K: Again, shes just casually being like I cant order you to do this thing, but you COULD attack my own subordinate and it would be within the rules
A: Shes so great.

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Eerieka
12/31/19 10:04:24 PM
#168:


Beatrice throws the white glove.
Zepar and Furfur explain why Erika has to accept the duel. We would probably mock her far and wide if she didnt!
A: *snort* I like how its we would probably Like, no, you two bitches would absolutely do it.

Beatrice taunts Erika with a closed room which cannot be solved.
A: And youve taken the bait.

Erika tears off her wedding dress and has her usual costume under it. We both laugh at how ridiculous it looks that to think she was hiding that under her wedding dress.

Back at Kanon running in the rain, and hes thinking back about all the people he knew. He says something about Natsuhi was strict with the female servants, but kind to the boys.
A: Thats awfully telling, isnt it? That Kanon doesnt exist.

Then to Kanons thoughts about Jessica
A; What is Shannon poisoned that well, so to speak. Youre just a servant. You cant fall in love with the heir to the Ushiromiya house. Youre not worthy. Because its been what shes been telling herself this whole time.

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Mega Mana
01/05/20 12:51:55 AM
#169:


Finally at Higurashi again, mid-episode two, past the portion of anxious Maebara-like frozen terror when Maebara sees Shion and Mion at the same time.

Think I started in part VII? After the Watanagashi festival.

I have a distinct feeling that Shion is impersonating Mion at the moment. She's not sick, she's tired from running from her house in Okinomiya to meet with Rena and Keiichi, and she's leaving early to get back to Okinomiya where she'll be tired again when Keiichi comes over about the library. I'm not sure why yet. Did Mion disappear? Is Mion the one burned half naked with a dental match for someone else? Is Mion the almost unidentifiable burned one??? IS THAT WHY EVERY EPISODE OF UMINEKO HAS GREAT EXTENSIVE DETAIL ABOUT HOW KINZO IS DEFINITELY THE CORPSE IN THE FURNACE AND THAT HE HAS SIX TOES? BECAUSE HIGURASHI PULLED THIS SHIT FIRST? Makes sense to me.

Sonozaki-clan is Yakuza-like creeps me out, but the way the village surrounded Keiichi's bully was terrifying in a silent mafia way.

Going by the Shion-as-Mion, testing Keiichi out with questions about the night before, was that Shion calling Kimiyoshi in the tip about the search for the mayor? She used Mion's/Oryou's authority to conduct that search and said she would be there in her Nana's stead. So her Nana wouldn't really be doing anything about the search for the mayor? Why? Is this a power play?

There hasn't been much of Rena, Satoko, or Rika this chapter.

As for Umineko commentary, I forgot how the change from the wedding to the mystery went and I'm glad for it! You've got Arria steered on the right track. I was still completely lost on the Shkanon at this point and thought Kanon was just a badass again. I still think I can solve this closed room WITHOUT Kanon's appearance though.


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Mega Mana
01/06/20 9:27:50 PM
#170:




NOPE

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Mega Mana
01/06/20 11:11:10 PM
#171:


More Higurashi Chapter 2

Takano was dead for 24 hours?! So, wait, that really was Takano? And someone replaced her? Or... did Shion kill someone else and make it seem like it was Takano? Why would she do that? Is Takano actually alive? Wait. Okay. So, I'm pretty certain Shion let Mion go, and Mion died escaping, and Shion went in the cell pretending to be Mion, and ended up stabbing Keiichi later wearing Mion's clothes? And then dying? What does this have to do with Takano? Who is Takano anyway, and why did she insist on going in the shrine, and why is there a false corpse of her with six toes in the furnace - I mean, dental record. Did Matthew Perry operate on her for Bruce Willis?

And why did Rika have a syringe? Did she suspect Mion/Shion? Was she taking care of things? But what happened? What is even happening?!?! IT'S USELESS, IT'S ALL USELESS!

Extra:

No, Rena, I did not enjoy it, enjoy it! It took me THREE- *double checks my save from the first chapter* -AND A HALF YEARS to make it through this game! Arria probably hadn't even been introduced to Umineko yet it was that long ago! Hell, Umineko wasn't even on Steam yet, I don't think! Shion being a cruel bitch to her sister when Keiichi walked with her after work froze me for YEARS. At least, now I understand. Now I think I understand why that happened. Because of the apology. Because Keiichi came in like a white knight and INSTANTLY gouged the heart and killed. So, NO... .... ... it was actually pretty good this back half, okay? I enjoyed the mystery, but I still won't forgive Shion's cruelty, uwaaaaa~


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Eerieka
01/07/20 10:45:14 AM
#172:


Keep posting, Mega Mana. Arria and I haven't had a chance to read in a while so my bumps for this are gonna slow down.

Well, Arria started reading Umineko in 2017, so we're getting close to 3 years. :) She *knew* Umineko existed prior to that. I remember probably circa 2013-2014 telling her I wanted her to read it one day.

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Eerieka
01/07/20 10:51:52 AM
#173:


Oh hey, speaking of Higurashi, are they remaking the animu?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9vYu4tMcnU

This pleases me! Although recent anime remakes have been disastrous compared to their originals, they can only improve upon the original anime of Higurashi, right? Right?!

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AxemRedRanger
01/07/20 3:44:27 PM
#174:


The 2019 Fruits Basket remake seems to have gone over well!

And perhaps more relevantly, fellow VN-adapted-by-Deen-in-the-00s Fate continues to make lots of money, thanks in part to recent anime adaptations.

The new studio admittedly doesn't seem especially promising but maybe they just haven't been handed good source material:
https://myanimelist.net/anime/producer/911/Passione

A lot of their stuff seems to have been directed by this guy:
https://myanimelist.net/people/6738/Takeo_Takahashi

...Well, he did good on Spice & Wolf back in the day! >_>

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Eerieka
01/08/20 11:57:53 AM
#175:


To be honest, I haven't watched much anime in the last few years compared to what I used to watch. I was never a fan of the original Furuba or Fate series, so I didn't get into the remakes, but I have heard they were good.

I was disappointed by the (I don't want to call them all 'remakes' but like... the 'newer' stuff they've done of): CCS, Boogiepop, Kino's Journey, LoGH.

Oh! I like Rokka no Yuusha. Moreover, I liked that they did the ballsy move of adapting a slow and mysterious novel series rather than skip to what most people might consider "the good stuff." I also liked all the Mesoamerican aesthetic the anime added lol. That gives me a bit more hope for this studio.

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Eerieka
01/12/20 8:38:13 PM
#176:


Then back to the duel between Beato and Erika. They brought flintlock pistols
A: Not what I was expecting! It should have been, but I thought we were going to play detective first.
K: Keep in mind this is a story where slashing someone with a sword is the same as giving your piece of the debate. This is both a gun duel AND a debate.

During the debate, Erika makes Beatrice repeat that Battler and Kanon are not the same person, which Beatrice does.
A: Okay! Her brain went to the same place mine did!

Erika goes over who is in which room, and me and Arria are going over my diagram. She laughs when Erika talks about how Kanon, Yoshiya, or Purupiko-man can all be in that room.

When they talk about names, and they use George as the example, it finally clicks. She realizes Kanons name isnt also George but Shannons name is also Kanon.

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Mega Mana
01/12/20 11:36:39 PM
#177:


HIGURASHI EPISODE 3 BEGINS

Also, before I begin, I just want to really commend Arria on resisting the urge to look up spoilers or jump ahead without you all this time. Her patience and friendship are truly admirable.

"And you were happy too for you did not know what was outside the well."

Chapter 3 is going to be terrible, won't it?

  • "Hey landlord, there's a terrible stink! The sewer's backed up!" "Eh, just poke it with a stick, it should clear up." "Hey what's that? EEEEEK!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz4-aEGvqQM
  • She was cut open and her insides were drug out? Was she also stuffed with Halloween candy?? MADE OF SMALL BOMBS???
  • Katoko seems waaayyy too polite about Mion's bento box. Wonder what hot sauce she plans to add.
  • A curry fiend has appeared!!!
  • BENTO SHOWDOWN!!!
  • Not much commentary on the Satoko harassing or the cooking... except for filling the wok to the brim with salad oil. Oh, Keiichi, noooo....
  • Where's Gohda when you need him?
  • IRON CHEF ARSON, KEIICHI MAEBARA! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n76fJq_Kj6g&t=2m41s
  • Definitely getting the Satoko episode we were promised in the tea party. And the mystery of Satoshi is brought up in Chapter 1!

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Eerieka
01/16/20 9:10:02 PM
#178:


You're very right about her being good at not looking up spoilers. I'm not sure how she did it, personally. I always get spoiled on stuff lol

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Eerieka
01/20/20 9:27:16 PM
#179:


bump

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Account created-9/10/04. Just a normal GameFAQs user/leprechaun
Ramza: rofl. Rofel: You say my name? -Eise
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Eerieka
01/23/20 12:20:13 PM
#180:


Okay, got plans to hang out with Arria on Sunday. Maybe we'll read some Seacats?

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Account created-9/10/04. Just a normal GameFAQs user/leprechaun
Ramza: rofl. Rofel: You say my name? -Eise
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AxemRedRanger
01/24/20 8:10:49 PM
#181:


so how close are you to being caught up?

are you two gonna nominate question arcs for the Game of the Decade contest? Assuming she has a gamefaqs account?

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[NO BARKLEY NO PEACE]
[NO Advokaiser NO PEACE]
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Eerieka
01/26/20 5:58:01 AM
#182:


I don't understand the first question. We're at the end of Ep 6, and I'm not sure how long it'll take her to finish. I wasn't planning on nominating anything for the contest, but I will vote when it starts. She technically has a GameFAQs account, but she hasn't used it in over a decade lol.

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Account created-9/10/04. Just a normal GameFAQs user/leprechaun
Ramza: rofl. Rofel: You say my name? -Eise
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Mega Mana
01/26/20 1:18:57 PM
#183:


HIGURASHI 3 - CHAPTER 2

  • I am so hungry for bento.
  • Please, Keiichi. For the love all that is good... give yourself up and take the punishment. He's gonna get so many pity votes...
  • Poor Satoko... everyone making fun of what she made in Keiichi's dish...
  • Mion totally knows Satoko cheated and is just being cruel, right? It's Mion.
  • Yeah, if Rena figured it out when Keiichi showed the burns, Mion figured it out from the outset and has been putting on a show, with all of us the poor peons who cheated and get thrown around.
  • Awww, they both sacrificed themselves to the curry gods!
  • Whoa! New sprite?! That was completely unexpected. So Chie isn't just a prop character??!
  • And then they all died together! Yaaay~~

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"In my headcanon, some staffer saw Trump pull out his phone and start typing so they just Terry Tate Office Linebacker'd him out of his shoes." - FFD
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