Board 8 > Umineko Theatregoing Topic *unmarked spoilers for the whole series*

(+) Yeah! (+)

ALSO, dels reading 6 reminded me. Isnt there a scene in 5 or 6 where Erika sees Shannon and Kanin in the same room? Which shouldnt be possible?
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GANON1025 posted...

ALSO, dels reading 6 reminded me. Isnt there a scene in 5 or 6 where Erika sees Shannon and Kanin in the same room? Which shouldnt be possible?

No, Battler says Shannon and Kanon are in the same room, but Shannon is conveniently behind Erika.
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Huh? But why would battler do that
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GANON1025 posted...

Huh? But why would battler do that

He was Lambdadelta's piece at the time.
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Hmmm well alright
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GANON1025 posted...

The Lion King

Oh yeah, also The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe


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"this game seems so meticulously planned"

lol

should we tell him the common terminology is "shkannon"
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No, it's not a good idea to say that. While he's pretty confident that Kanon and Shannon are the same person, saying there's a term for it might be treated as a confirmation.
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At this point may as well wait till all is said and done to break it all down.
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"i have a feeling this may be a thing that ultimately never makes any sense, even when the curtain closes on chapter 8"

Hey, he's on the right track
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Who said this: Ange or Dels

"its okay. it's all a lie. i have faith in the real kyrie. she'd never say or do these things."
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If Dels is still wondering about all of the howdunnit parts after reading Ep 8 I'll provide him with the manga adaptation of ep 7, which provides all of those

Gonna wait until he finishes ep 8 to mention it though =)

It really bugs me that that isn't in the game itself
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Umineko manga is excellent anyway.
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I feel like once you know about Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice, that they're the true Family Head and own all of the gold because they solved the epitaph, and that Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo know all of that, when combined with the additional red truths we get from the Chapter 4 Tea Party and ??? and Will's hints in Chapter 7 (and of course knowing that Shkanontrice is the culprit), most of the murders from the first four chapters pretty much solve themselves.
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like has there been some hidden person in a wheelchair that's just conveniently offscreen every scene

oh my god this is gold
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He's going to pick the Trick ending first isn't he?
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It's a little sad that Dels is still looking for the climax, since unfortunately the climax to the mystery already happened. Yasu isn't even MENTIONED in episode 8, because honestly that part of the story is of no interest now. Now, I guess, the True Meaning of Umineko (the examination of loss and dealing with moving on) is revealed in full. In a way, one could argue that THIS is the true answer to Umineko, the mystery itself is a red herring of sorts.
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It's a mystery-and-fantasy-flavored drama!
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I feel like, in a way that's why there such a weird disconnect between the Question and Answer arcs of Umineko. In the question arcs, the mystery feels very important, and is (I think for a lot of people) the driving force of going through the story. But in the Answer arcs there is a switch; the mystery is no longer Important, and it just feels weird? Like now the mystery is used (much like how witches use magic) to obfuscate the truth of the story. I think I've come around to liking Episode 8 more now that I've started to understand this, but doesn't mean I totally like this idea.
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I've come to view Episode 7 as the 'intellectual end' of the series. The mystery is solved and now we can get on with our lives. Episode 8 is the 'emotional end' of the series, the part that asks 'okay now how do we go on with our lives?' I understand why a lot of people were disappointed with the last episode, but personally I thought it was great.

I'll have to finish my reread before I can say any more, because I know I'm forgetting a lot of details.
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I love Episode 8!
I need to mentally prepare for Dels decrying the lack of solutions though.
It comes back to Umineko supposedly being a game between the author and its readers (a theme spelled out in the game itself) so it follows that it doesn't want to outright spell the answer for you (at least that's what I think Ryukishi is doing). Like a game where even if you cannot lose against the final boss during the last phase, you still must push the button to defeat them.
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Team Rocket Elite posted...

He's going to pick the Trick ending first isn't he?

he's going to only pick Trick
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why do I have absolutely no memory of these red scenes or whatever
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Raka_Putra posted...

It comes back to Umineko supposedly being a game between the author and its readers (a theme spelled out in the game itself) so it follows that it doesn't want to outright spell the answer for you (at least that's what I think Ryukishi is doing). Like a game where even if you cannot lose against the final boss during the last phase, you still must push the button to defeat them.

But, in trying to be clever and do this, this leads Umineko as a story having an unsatisfying conclusion, a story that is only actually completed with outside material. Plus, the way the answers are given is a mess. So you're playing the end of 7 and seeing Will battle Clair. OK, so for me at least I assumed after the "battle" was over we'd get a real summary. Doesn't happen. Even if then and there I wanted to go back and solve it myself, I have to what? Reload a save and read it again. And even if I did that, the summaries of the episodes aren't very good, and I sure as hell don't remember what happened exactly on the third twilight of episode 2 or whatever. I get that for people who read this when it was released they might have a different opinion on this since they had months and years of speculation amongst the community to fall back on, but as a single person reading all through at once it just doesn't sit right.

PLUS, you get the real answer anyway during the Episode 7 Tea Party/??? (I forget which one shows this): The episode mysteries never really mattered because none of them happened.
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Tom Bombadil posted...

why do I have absolutely no memory of these red scenes or whatever

because they flashed across in like two seconds, and the text shown on them was an image, not actually text you could advance through.

I don't hate the ep8 riddle segment, but as far as sudden introduction of gameplay goes putting the fragments together in higurashi ep8 was way cooler
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....

Okay. That makes no sense.

I used Raiden's Kunshira at the 85 nrg mission and had to restart it on a different device since the battery was dying.

Suddenly I got an OK with a different friend going all of a sudden...
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RIP Delseban taking many days between reading the puzzle and trying to solve it

Knowing that there are no lies in the narration itself is a key part to solving it

It's a tough riddle, sometimes it can take days to solve.
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I know this is restating a lot of what I said when you went through this GANON, but I think the only thing he hasn't connected now is the following two things:
1) In order to be a culprit, you have to actually kill somebody
2) The first and second twilights were both true closed rooms

He's realized that the first twilight victims are the suspicious ones. If he takes the closed room definition at face value, then he'll realize that the first twilight was faked deaths (Which I think he already knows, even if he hasn't realized fully) and that the second had to be somebody hiding in the room.

That means a kid lied about their parents' deaths. The kid has to kill somebody to be a culprit so that he can lie. The kid couldn't have done the first two twilights because of closed room. The kid couldn't have done the fifth/sixth/seventh twilights because Jessica confirmed the alibi. The kid couldn't have done the eighth because both Battler and Maria said none of them could, and George said Maria couldn't kill anybody. So the only way a kid could've done the 8th is if they were all culprits, and there just aren't enough murders for that. That'd be two murders (Shannon and Jessica) for three culprits (Battler, George, Maria). So that's out. Which leaves just the fourth twilight as the only possible murder for the kid.

He's also realized, while I was typing this, that George couldn't kill Shannon. Which means he's innocent, which means Maria couldn't kill anyone, which means she's innocent, which means Battler (And his parents) are the only option left.

I'm kinda with Del's on a lot of this, albeit not to the full extent. I would've liked more time spent actually explicitly solving stuff actually in the game.

I kinda stopped trying to figure out the meta layers and stuff long before he did too, but for me it was more a "shut your brain off and roll with it" than an "ugh nothing matters or makes sense"
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There were times when the meta layers went over my head, too. It makes a lot more sense the second time you read it, though I don't expect anyone to read it twice. Heck, I never really thought I'd read it twice, but here I am. I think once I'm done with Arria, I'll compose a sort of 'chart' to show my interpretations of the meta layers. There is one I have saved which is sorta my idea, but my idea is a bit more in depth.
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I wonder how many things the Goats are saying are arguments players actually said at one point leading up to Ep8.
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How can when I said the things Dels said everyone made fun of me and said I didn't "get it", but now everyone comes out of the woodwork to support Dels huh???????????
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Krauss didn't name a theme park after you so
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Witches are fickle.
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GANON1025 posted...

How can when I said the things Dels said everyone made fun of me and said I didn't "get it", but now everyone comes out of the woodwork to support Dels huh???????????

I mean, I "get it", it's "not about the answers", and the game wants you to keep working things out on your own. It's not the kind of game I wanted, but it's a choice by the author, that's for sure.

tbh I felt like I was constantly pissing everyone off with every criticism i had, so it's interesting you felt i was being supported

Popcorn_Fairy posted...

Dels posted...

This feels sort of related to what I was saying about how... the magical stuff clearly does 'exist'. We're far past the point of me being able to say "it's all fake, the narrator is lying", because it's... well, it's nearly 50% of the game at this point, maybe even more.

But, it is all fake and the narrator is lying.

But it's not all fake, and the narrator isn't lying.

That's the point!

misanthropic posted...

I'm slightly horrified with Dels's apparent lack of emotional reaction to everything with Rosa and Maria. I assume they're filtering their reactions because of what forum this is, but I have no way to be certain.

not sure what this is about. @misanthropic can you clarify? i feel like i talked about rosa and maria stuff a bunch, especially during episode 4. i mean, yes, the things rosa does are horrible and i joked about it a bit like "haha maria deserves it" but there's not much else to say?

GANON1025 posted...

Hey, you know, that murder puzzle in 8 was hard OK?? If the narration meant so much it should have been its option to look at like the purple text!!!!

i mean, you're not wrong.

Dels posted...

Popcorn_Fairy posted...

Dels posted...

This feels sort of related to what I was saying about how... the magical stuff clearly does 'exist'. We're far past the point of me being able to say "it's all fake, the narrator is lying", because it's... well, it's nearly 50% of the game at this point, maybe even more.

But, it is all fake and the narrator is lying.

But it's not all fake, and the narrator isn't lying.

That's the point!

But the Narrator is lying. Umineko has the mother of all unreliable narrators.
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Popcorn_Fairy posted...

It's just driving me nuts how he keeps saiyan it's impossible to solve.

well, first of all, i didn't mean this literally. i meant it was practically impossible to solve. i figured there must be a correct answer, but it was too hard to see.

and apparently my viewpoint of what this mystery story was like was wrong, from my experience with mystery VNs and not mystery novels. I didn't realize that clues were laid out in such a way that you can actually find an answer all on your own. i figured I was meant to keep reading until the characters finally solve it for me.

Now, obviously if you were taking notes and discussing it online, it'd be really easy to say "oh, shannon's death was the only one not confirmed in episode 1. wait, and she's the one who finds the chapel in episode 2?!" (was it this easy? did people online notice this and solve the killer just like that...?)

but I wasn't going to do that. And I hope I didn't set out false expectations with my playthrough topic - because yes, I wanted to try and stay ahead of the game, but I didn't expect it to be that kind of open-ended mystery. I thought the game was going to continue to narrow things down for me. I didn't realize it wanted me to just do all the legwork on my own - and as you can see from episode 8 and stuff - that sort of mystery-solving isn't really my thing.

Popcorn_Fairy posted...

But the Narrator is lying. Umineko has the mother of all unreliable narrators.

But the idea is that they're not necessarily unreliable. You can decide that they are reliable if you want. It can become your golden truth! The narrator believes it, so it is real to them!

GANON1025 posted...

I do relate to what he is saying about pieces and it being hard to understand that concept. I guess I got to a point where it was like, if a piece does something does it even really matter? When the piece Eva apologizes to Ange in 8 for being so bad as a parent, it doesn't actually matter because that's not even the actual Eva. And that's even more compromised because Battler made the pieces in 8 to be especially nice. But THEN, a lot of that stuff is just representations of Ange's internal conflicts over her feelings.

here's the thing - by this logic, there is no "actual Eva" at all

maybe the ep 3 tea party Eva is "real"
and maybe the ep7 tea party Eva is real

but other than that, NO eva you see in the game is real - and that's the point. The ep8 Eva is just as valid of an interpretation as all the others

But that's the point of episode 8 - you can decide [Magic] aka "this Eva is real and her feelings are real and she really does love Ange and regret everything"... or, what you've seemingly chosen, [Trick]

Tom Bombadil posted...

I kinda stopped trying to figure out the meta layers and stuff long before he did too, but for me it was more a "shut your brain off and roll with it" than an "ugh nothing matters or makes sense"

no, that's basically what i did. (the former). but "shutting your brain off and rolling with it" doesn't work for a playthrough topic where you're expected to try and give actual thoughts, so i had to comment on stuff.

save
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INE5I82zdW0" data-time="
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddJHCUmIC8M" data-time="

best steamed hams
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the video that finally got me to see what steamed hams was

except now all the other parodies seem weak
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