Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 463: Better Viewership Than Raw

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TheRock1525 posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Because Asuka is the conquering face. Becky is the morally questionable Austin-style face. That should be pretty obvious when she says she's gonna slap everyone on the roster after telling them to form a line.

Nah. The fact that we were supposed to cheer Asuka over BOTH of them means they're both shades of heel. WWE does not think Becky is a face right now. They're just portraying her as slightly less heel than Charlotte.

Becky cuts promos literally thanking the crowd = they still think she's a heel.

Alright.

If WWE actually thought of her as an Austin face and actually wanted her cheered as such, they wouldn't have literally just gone out of their way to use her to have Asuka get cheered over her/at her expense.

WWE is purposely keeping Becky within the lines of heeldom/as close to it as they can so that Ronda's the conquering face against her. The only person they actually want Becky cheered against is Charlotte.

It's barely been a few weeks and they've already gone "Cheer for this other person instead, cheer for this other person instead!"
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HashtagSEP posted...

If WWE actually thought of her as an Austin face and actually wanted her cheered as such, they wouldn't have literally just gone out of their way to use her to have Asuka get cheered over her/at her expense.

If the WWE wanted Charlotte to be heel, they wouldn't have had her attack two of the most annoying heels on the roster the first Smackdown after her heel turn at Survivor Series.

Like someone had to stand tall before a PPV, what did you want? Becky and Asuka to stand tall together, completely contradicting Becky's character? Maybe have a dumb Ryback/Cena tug of war over the belt while Charlotte's CM Punk looks on with sadness? If Becky stood tall at the end over Asuka and Charlotte, it wouldn't say any more or less about their alignment AND make it more susceptible for her to lose. And if Charlotte won you would be bitching about how the WWE makes everything about Charlotte and this is just further evidence it will be Charlotte vs. Ronda at WM.

Please tell me the ending you would have preferred that reinforced Becky as a face while not contradicting her Austin-style behaviour.
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ViviffTheMobile posted...

Yeah, I just take it as maybe trying to give Asuka some of her credibility back.

Lord knows she needs it after that fuckery this summer with Carmella.

*shivers*
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TheRock1525 posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

If WWE actually thought of her as an Austin face and actually wanted her cheered as such, they wouldn't have literally just gone out of their way to use her to have Asuka get cheered over her/at her expense.

If the WWE wanted Charlotte to be heel, they wouldn't have had her attack two of the most annoying heels on the roster the first Smackdown after her heel turn at Survivor Series.

Like someone had to stand tall before a PPV, what did you want? Becky and Asuka to stand tall together, completely contradicting Becky's character? Maybe have a dumb Ryback/Cena tug of war over the belt while Charlotte's CM Punk looks on with sadness? If Becky stood tall at the end over Asuka and Charlotte, it wouldn't say any more or less about their alignment AND make it more susceptible for her to lose. And if Charlotte won you would be bitching about how the WWE makes everything about Charlotte and this is just further evidence it will be Charlotte vs. Ronda at WM.

Please tell me the ending you would have preferred that reinforced Becky as a face while not contradicting her Austin-style behaviour.

"WWE did something stupid but it's your fault, not their fault."

Okay, I see you're sticking with that argument.
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I actually disagree that someone has to stand tall prior to a PPV. Stalemated face-offs are actually so utterly unused and they would create a much more grounded sense of stakes. Standing tall has become such an overused crutch to keep someone over artificially that the fans don't really care anymore. It would be best at this point to keep opponents apart more often and create the anticipation with the staredowns and the rare touches.
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Though if you want a legitimate answer, which I don't think you actually do...

You have Becky not even get involved at all. Much like when she left the contract signing early, you have her keep her distance and look on while whatever happens between Charlotte/Asuka. Then, if it still ends in Asuka standing tall, you have her stare her down and end the show there. You certainly don't have her get beat up and stood over by somebody who you're portraying as a better face/more deserving of being cheered and basically go "Cheer this one!"
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HashtagSEP posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

If WWE actually thought of her as an Austin face and actually wanted her cheered as such, they wouldn't have literally just gone out of their way to use her to have Asuka get cheered over her/at her expense.

If the WWE wanted Charlotte to be heel, they wouldn't have had her attack two of the most annoying heels on the roster the first Smackdown after her heel turn at Survivor Series.

Like someone had to stand tall before a PPV, what did you want? Becky and Asuka to stand tall together, completely contradicting Becky's character? Maybe have a dumb Ryback/Cena tug of war over the belt while Charlotte's CM Punk looks on with sadness? If Becky stood tall at the end over Asuka and Charlotte, it wouldn't say any more or less about their alignment AND make it more susceptible for her to lose. And if Charlotte won you would be bitching about how the WWE makes everything about Charlotte and this is just further evidence it will be Charlotte vs. Ronda at WM.

Please tell me the ending you would have preferred that reinforced Becky as a face while not contradicting her Austin-style behaviour.

"WWE did something stupid but it's your fault, not their fault."

Okay, I see you're sticking with that argument.

Don't see where they did anything stupid here.

Re-establish Charlotte as a heel? Check.

Re-establish Becky as someone who takes shit from no one? Check.

Re-establish Asuka as a credible threat? Check.

They pretty much nailed this segment and you are so desperate to complain about anything that you want to argue it was wrong.

It's almost self-parody at this point.

"Becky Lynch is now the unified women's champion by submitting both Ronda and Charlotte at the same time."

"Yeah but I'm not sure if Becky is a face so this sucks."
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TheRock1525 posted...

They pretty much nailed this segment and you are so desperate to complain about anything that you want to argue it was wrong.

HashtagSEP posted...

"WWE did something stupid but it's your fault, not their fault."

Okay, I see you're sticking with that argument.

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HashtagSEP posted...

Though if you want a legitimate answer, which I don't think you actually do...

You have Becky not even get involved at all. Much like when she left the contract signing early, you have her keep her distance and look on while whatever happens between Charlotte/Asuka. Then, if it still ends in Asuka standing tall, you have her stare her down and end the show there. You certainly don't have her get beat up and stood over by somebody who you're portraying as a better face/more deserving of being cheered and basically go "Cheer this one!"

So basically you have either Charlotte (who's on a PPV losing streak) or Asuka (same) take a significant loss before the PPV with no involvement from the champ.

But the way they did it was stupid. Uh-huh.
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TheRock1525 posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

Though if you want a legitimate answer, which I don't think you actually do...

You have Becky not even get involved at all. Much like when she left the contract signing early, you have her keep her distance and look on while whatever happens between Charlotte/Asuka. Then, if it still ends in Asuka standing tall, you have her stare her down and end the show there. You certainly don't have her get beat up and stood over by somebody who you're portraying as a better face/more deserving of being cheered and basically go "Cheer this one!"

So basically you have either Charlotte (who's on a PPV losing streak) or Asuka (same) take a significant loss before the PPV with no involvement from the champ.

But the way they did it was stupid. Uh-huh.

...Literally where did I say that? Everything else can play out the same way. You just keep Becky out of it and have her stare down Asuka at the end.
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HashtagSEP posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

They pretty much nailed this segment and you are so desperate to complain about anything that you want to argue it was wrong.

HashtagSEP posted...

"WWE did something stupid but it's your fault, not their fault."

Okay, I see you're sticking with that argument.

"Hey here is why they nailed this segment."

"LOL SO YOURE SAYING THE WWE DID SOMETHING STUPID LOL"

I'm thinking it's about time to block you because this is fucking ridiculous and you know it.
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If WWE actually is trying to push Becky like this Austin-esque face mega star, then yes, having another face beat her down, stand over her, and get cheered for it is stupid.

So either your premise that this is what WWE wants is wrong
Or the ending was stupid

Pick one.
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HashtagSEP posted...

..Literally where did I say that? Everything else can play out the same way. You just keep Becky out of it and have her stare down Asuka at the end.

So Charlotte gets DQ'd, wails on Asuka, then Asuka turns the tables and it makes Charlotte look like a reasonable contender... how?

"Oh look, I can't beat Asuka so I bet get DQ'd."
"Oh fiddle sticks, I can't even do a proper beatdown. And I've lost twice to Becky clean on PPV recently. Please take me seriously in this upcoming match."
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Like, this would be the equivalent of Elias just turning face, but then because there's a feud of Him/Lashley/Rollins, Rollins beats Elias down and stands over him to cheers, and then going "Yep, WWE nailed Elias's face turn!"
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HashtagSEP posted...

If WWE actually is trying to push Becky like this Austin-esque face mega star, then yes, having another face beat her down, stand over her, and get cheered for it is stupid.

Cause Rock or Mankind never stood tall over Austin.
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TheRock1525 posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

..Literally where did I say that? Everything else can play out the same way. You just keep Becky out of it and have her stare down Asuka at the end.

So Charlotte gets DQ'd, wails on Asuka, then Asuka turns the tables and it makes Charlotte look like a reasonable contender... how?

"Oh look, I can't beat Asuka so I bet get DQ'd."
"Oh fiddle sticks, I can't even do a proper beatdown. And I've lost twice to Becky clean on PPV recently. Please take me seriously in this upcoming match."

...I mean literally both of these things are what happened in the segment you're defending to begin with...?

Have her get distracted showing off to Becky while she's beating on Asuka if you really want. It's not hard.
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HashtagSEP posted...

Like, this would be the equivalent of Elias just turning face, but then because there's a feud of Him/Lashley/Rollins, Rollins beats Elias down and stands over him to cheers, and then going "Yep, WWE nailed Elias's face turn!"

Considering Elias has a serious credibility crisis as a performer, it would actually be even more justified as it would establish Elias as a credible threat.
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Are we just going to ignore scarlet's post, then? Because he was 100% right.

What about a brawl to the back? Those have fallen out of favor too and they're usually great.
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TheRock1525 posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

If WWE actually is trying to push Becky like this Austin-esque face mega star, then yes, having another face beat her down, stand over her, and get cheered for it is stupid.

Cause Rock or Mankind never stood tall over Austin.

If you can come up with a segment where both Rock and Austin, or Mankind and Austin were both faces, and Rock/Mankind beat down Austin, stood over him, and got cheered, then please do.
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I actually agree with Rock on this. Rare I know.

I'm curious SEP did you actually watch the segment or did you just read a review and know the gist of the segment. Because it was executed pretty well even if maybe it doesn't seem great on paper. Asuka needed to look best since she's the most damaged goods right now and I didn't think Becky or hell even Charlotte looked like total clowns. Face standing tall over tweener leaning face and heel is completely fine.
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NBIceman posted...

Are we just going to ignore scarlet's post, then? Because he was 100% right.

What about a brawl to the back? Those have fallen out of favor too and they're usually great.

I mean that's partially what I'm saying. Rock is adamant on Charlotte reaffirming herself as a heel, so have Becky and Asuka stare each other down in the end if he doesn't want the former to change.

I don't actually care what it got changed to... Stare down, brawl, whatever.. I'm simply arguing that Asuka beating down Becky and then standing over her as a face was the wrong move.
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HashtagSEP posted...

...I mean literally both of these things are what happened in the segment you're defending to begin with...?

Doing a beatdown angle with three people involves more moving parts and more excuses to get caught off guard.

And I'm sure when Charlotte has a weapon in her hand and sees Becky Lynch in sight, her first instinct is gonna be "yeah let's talk."
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Lopen posted...

Face standing tall over tweener leaning face and heel is completely fine.

This is what I'm getting at.

Rock is insisting Becky's a full blown face.

I'm saying she's a tweener at best.

That's literally the area of contention. I'm saying that if Rock wants to believe Becky is being pushed as an actual face, even a morally ambiguous one, then what they did was wrong.

If she's a tweener, then it's fine.

The argument initially started over whether WWE sees her as a face mega star or not. I said they do not. I said that Asuka standing tall over her means they don't view her as more than a tweener.
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HashtagSEP posted...

I don't actually care what it got changed to... Stare down, brawl, whatever.. I'm simply arguing that Asuka beating down Becky and then standing over her as a face was the wrong move.

Becky is on a streak where outside of Summerslam she's won a shit ton of matches.

She's been on the right side of beatdowns 90% of the time since Summerslam, including getting the absolute best of Ronda fucking Rousey.

You ask her ONE TIME to take a beating to establish Asuka and it just ruined everything, apparently.
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Eh I think even if she was a full face it's fine-- face Austin has stunned faces before, but I agree she's not one yet. I do think that if you have the reactions she has it doesn't actually matter if she is one and probably hurts the product if she is.
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TheRock1525 posted...

You ask her ONE TIME to take a beating to establish Asuka and it just ruined everything, apparently.

It ruins it if she's a face, yes.

Which is why she's not a face.

Which is my initial fucking point.
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I don't believe in tweeners. You're either a face that straddles the heel line or a heel that does the opposite (those are pretty rare, though).
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Lopen posted...

Eh I think even if she was a full face it's fine-- face Austin has stunned faces before, but I agree she's not one yet.

Well, Austin stunning faces and faces beating down Austin are two different things. Becky beating down Asuka would be expected, but Asuka, the full face, beating down Becky and with the message of we're supposed to cheer means Becky isn't supposed to be seen as a face.
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Lopen posted...

Eh I think even if she was a full face it's fine-- face Austin has stunned faces before, but I agree she's not one yet. I do think that if you have the reactions she has it doesn't actually matter if she is one and probably hurts the product if she is.

Austin would have stunned his parents at that point and still got cheered.
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JIMMY!!!!1!

*to SEP* JIMMY!
*to Rock* JIMMY!
*to both* JIMMY!
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TheRock1525 posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

I don't actually care what it got changed to... Stare down, brawl, whatever.. I'm simply arguing that Asuka beating down Becky and then standing over her as a face was the wrong move.

Becky is on a streak where outside of Summerslam she's won a shit ton of matches.

She's been on the right side of beatdowns 90% of the time since Summerslam, including getting the absolute best of Ronda fucking Rousey.

You ask her ONE TIME to take a beating to establish Asuka and it just ruined everything, apparently.

From my point of view, it's not about Becky so much as Asuka and also the greater show in general. Cut the number of beatdowns and stand-talls on go home shows by half and you STILL have too many on every go home show. The go-home show should establish an equivalency and create a desire to see two workers who rarely or never come in contact with each other to actually touch at a big show. For me, it should be the type of angle reserved for blood feuds. It makes the product almost a little trashy that this is "allowed by management" all of the time. Imagine the impact Shane's head going through a windshield would have had, for example, if on that same show there weren't 3 other post-match beatdowns.
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HashtagSEP posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

You ask her ONE TIME to take a beating to establish Asuka and it just ruined everything, apparently.

It ruins it if she's a face, yes.

Which is why she's not a face.

Which is my initial fucking point.

So basically you want Becky to be all powerful and never ever lose. And that faces can never fight each other or stand tall over one another.

Even though its happened all the time in WWE. Michaels over Cena. Rock over Austin.

God no wonder you all fucking loved Strowman when I found him boring as fuck.
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This argument is really good evidence for why the outdated conceptions of face and heel characters need to be done away with entirely.

Write compelling, logical, three dimensional characters and stories to surround them. Then let the audience decide who to cheer for and go from there.
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Well Asuka's always had a bit of an edge to her too, never been full milk drinker. I think Rock had a good point with Austin/Rock/Mankind. I don't want to go digging but I'm positive you can find segments with any combination of any of the three beating down one of the other three, all being booked as faces. It's fine. That's how you create compelling product.

I mean if you wanna be a skeptic and say they're bound to mess it up then fine but I think the finish to Smackdown was done about as well as it could be.
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TheRock1525 posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

You ask her ONE TIME to take a beating to establish Asuka and it just ruined everything, apparently.

It ruins it if she's a face, yes.

Which is why she's not a face.

Which is my initial fucking point.

So basically you want Becky to be all powerful and never ever lose. And that faces can never fight each other or stand tall over one another.

Even though its happened all the time in WWE. Michaels over Cena. Rock over Austin.

God no wonder you all fucking loved Strowman when I found him boring as fuck.

Hey, Strowman was entertaining and seeing him fling around people was fun but they continuously shat the bed with him.
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TheRock1525 posted...

HashtagSEP posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

You ask her ONE TIME to take a beating to establish Asuka and it just ruined everything, apparently.

It ruins it if she's a face, yes.

Which is why she's not a face.

Which is my initial fucking point.

So basically you want Becky to be all powerful and never ever lose. And that faces can never fight each other or stand tall over one another.

Even though its happened all the time in WWE. Michaels over Cena. Rock over Austin.

God no wonder you all fucking loved Strowman when I found him boring as fuck.

I literally never said any of that and you're being dishonest on purpose.

I am 100% FINE with Becky being beat down.

Literally the reason we're arguing is because I say she's not a face and you insist she is.

I'm saying that Asuka beating Becky down and standing over her is stupid if WWE is pushing Becky as a face mega star.

But they're not, so it's fine.

That's literally my whole point. The segment is fine because Becky isn't a face in WWE's logic. She's a tweener.

I'm saying the segment would be stupid if she were seen as the next big thing face, and so the segment going the way it did is proof that WWE does not see her that way in the current moment. They see her as a tweener at best.

The segment as it stands is perfectly fine.
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Btw if Charlotte caught a beating while Asuka and Becky stood tall, most people here would be "oh God Charlotte is gonna win, isn't she?"
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oh
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NBIceman posted...

This argument is really good evidence for why the outdated conceptions of face and heel characters need to be done away with entirely.

Write compelling, logical, three dimensional characters and stories to surround them. Then let the audience decide who to cheer for and go from there.

Hey, another reason why bad writers are killing WWE!

You don't even need to necessarily get rid of faces and heels so much as provide consistent, logical booking and reasoning to the characters. It's like how characters like the Horsemen became faces during the NWO era when they were against the NWO and remained heels against the rest of WCW. Just find natural progression. I will always argue that the character of Lex Luger in the latter half of the 90s is one of the most nuanced characters in wrestling, and it's because he eschews the normal role of a heel and develops microrelationships on the roster that have grayer histories.
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Lopen posted...

I mean if you wanna be a skeptic and say they're bound to mess it up then fine but I think the finish to Smackdown was done about as well as it could be.

I agree. Because Becky's not face.

That's my only point.

I'm not actually saying the segment is bad. I'm saying it works perfectly fine specifically because she's not a face.

We can agree to disagree on the levels of how well it'd work if she was, but I'm not actually saying the segment was bad.

My entire argument is just that WWE views Becky as a tweener at best. They don't currently view her as a full blown face.
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I agree but I just don't see the problem with that, I guess. It seems like a weird thing to have an argument about. She's clearly being booked as the top woman of her division, and credibly, which is all that matters.
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And I'm saying that I don't believe in tweeners. She's a face that straddles the heel line. If that means tweener to you then that's on you. But to me there's a full spectrum with no real proper midpoint. There's pure white meat babyfaces like your former Sami Zayns. There's your Aleisteir Black's who are more just straight asskickers who mostly target heels. Then there's your Becky Lynch who just don't give a fuck.
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To me tweener is just another way to say that for the record. Feels like we're just arguing semantics
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Lopen posted...

I agree but I just don't see the problem with that, I guess. It seems like a weird thing to have an argument about. She's clearly being booked as the top woman of her division, and credibly, which is all that matters.

I don't see a problem with it, either, necessarily. Rock does. The argument is basically that I said she's not face and he insists she is and it got overblown from there.

Basically, Rock believes that WWE is listening to the fans and building toward this grand Becky face revival/mega star push of Austin levels. I made a post like a week ago saying I'd be happy if it went there, but I'm skeptical of WWE actually doing that, because it feels more like any of Becky's "face" qualities just came specifically because of WWE's last moment Charlotte heel turn in order to get the Ronda Rousey story that they wanted. I said I'm skeptical because this doesn't feel like it's WWE giving us what we want, it feels more like they just called an audible, and I'm worried about what happens when the audible ends. He then started his whole "You just want to be negative and look for negatives, even when they're giving us what we want" schtick and here we are.
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I think you both agree more than you think and it's just a dumb semantics argument, then.

Your definition of "tweener leaning face" seems pretty similar to Rock's definition of "face straddling the heel line."

I think turning Becky into more of a face than she is, which, Austin generally wasn't if we're keeping score since that's what she's being compared to a lot, ruins her.

I guess the only real thing is that you see it more likely she could go fully heel with minimal change to the presentation and character than he does. But unless you're arguing the segment on Tuesday is actively pushing her in that direction I don't see the problem. People turn at the drop of a hat in WWE these days so saying it's harder or easier to turn face or heel is frankly kind of irrelevant. If they want to do it they'll just do it with a random beatdown out of nowhere.
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Dave says Fox is expecting an average of 3.3M viewers for SD when it moves

Hoo boy
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Jakyl25 posted...

Dave says Fox is expecting an average of 3.3M viewers for SD when it moves

Hoo boy

Fox will be pleased.

For exactly one week.
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Lopen posted...

I guess the only real thing is that you see it more likely she could go fully heel with minimal change to the presentation and character than he does.

It basically comes down to that he thinks the Charlotte turn/Becky sorta-turn happened due to WWE caving in to fans and was the long term plan all along. I think it was a product of the audible from Becky getting hurt, that they wanted a heel to beat down Rousey, regardless, and so I am skeptical of the longevity of us "getting what we want," and, like you said, they could just change course at the drop of a hat.

It's not even a huge disagreement. He's just very adamant and, well, I never miss a chance to argue.

It basically amounts to that I'm skeptical and believe I have reason to be, given WWE's history, whereas Rock says I'm just looking for stuff to be negative about.
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Normally I'd be with you, but unlike most things this is good in the now so I don't care as much.

Usually it's me saying "they're going to ruin it" when we've got tepid/bad segments that could potentially be leading to something good. I actually enjoy the (top 3 of) Smackdown Women's division right now though so while them ruining it is a likely scenario it's not really a "give it a chance" kind of thing. It doesn't need to be given a chance. It's just good as it is. Knowing they'll ruin it shouldn't hurt the enjoyment right now. I'll just let it ruin the enjoyment then and enjoy that it's much better than expected now.
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The core concept is that Becky's injury only rushed the pseudo-double turns.

Had you argued this, say, right after Summerslam to right before Evolution, I would have been with you in that WWE had long-term plans for Becky heel and Charlotte face. But there was a clear audible with the post-Evolution booking. Hell, reports came out saying that the WWE was done with the heel/face dynamic and were going with "both parties have points" even before Evolution. Which means they had all but given up on Lynch being heel and now it was a matter of what dynamic to take with Charlotte going forward. I'm sure they weighed options to keep Charlotte face by having her feud with some random heel undercarders they want to establish (think her vs. Ruby Riott before WM last year), but to me there was a significant switch in how Becky was portrayed.

I think what also helps is that Becky is still dunking on a now heel Charlotte instead of re-embracing her now that they have both "seen the light." If you want an example of how Charlotte's turn could have reaffirmed Becky as a heel, look no further than how they're handling Gargano's turn in relation to Ciampa. Becky, also at the very least, acknowledge face Asuka earning her title shot vs. heel Charlotte being handed one. Sure, she'll slap the taste out of both of their mouths but there's a little bit of begrudging respect to Asuka.

Above all else, everything on the dirtsheets says the WWE loves what Becky is doing, and especially if she's establishing an outside presence from the WWE. When she's getting mentioned on MMA shows and what have you, that gets Vince's attention.

Could they screw it up? Absolutely. I'm not even talking a loss to Ronda (and I believe Ronda's contract is up around that time so Ronda might do the job on the way out). They could kill her heat by having her altered too much. They could try to force her back heel for the sake of some throwaway feud with a Naomi or something. But right now? Things seem to be progressing rather nicely.
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