Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 453: A Broken Hart

(+) Yeah! (+)

Didn't a lot of these women currently bashing Dave sing Moolah's praises for the Battle Royale at the time named after her?
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StealThisSheen posted...

Lopen posted...

Not necessarily. When you're heavier your balance is inherently not as good than it would be when you're light, which definitely factors into how well you can drop or throw people.

This is not true to any kind of noticeable degree unless you're absolutely comically obese

You're only going to have noticeable balance issues if you rapidly lose or gain weight

Eh. When you're doing something as hyper-athletic as pro wrestling, it probably doesn't take too many excess pounds to make a difference in ability.
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To be fair, some of those comments in the Moolah video package felt like they were edited in from a documentary about someone else <_<
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NBIceman posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Lopen posted...

Not necessarily. When you're heavier your balance is inherently not as good than it would be when you're light, which definitely factors into how well you can drop or throw people.

This is not true to any kind of noticeable degree unless you're absolutely comically obese

You're only going to have noticeable balance issues if you rapidly lose or gain weight

Eh. When you're doing something as hyper-athletic as pro wrestling, it probably doesn't take too many excess pounds to make a difference in ability.

https://imgur.com/3aHiWTK
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StealThisSheen posted...

This is not true to any kind of noticeable degree unless you're absolutely comically obese

You're only going to have noticeable balance issues if you rapidly lose or gain weight

I mean I think you're not holding to the same standards I am here

There's a difference between "can't move well when you walk" and "can't move well enough to not make bad blunders in vigorous physical activity"

You would see more fat guys in sports that aren't football if it didn't matter at all. Now on the other hand football is a good example that yeah, big men can move effectively in athletic competition, but yeah. I'm 100% sure losing weight would make Nia a better worker. Maybe not better enough to be actually good, however.
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Well if that did happen they never raised a fuss about it.
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NBIceman posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Lopen posted...

Not necessarily. When you're heavier your balance is inherently not as good than it would be when you're light, which definitely factors into how well you can drop or throw people.

This is not true to any kind of noticeable degree unless you're absolutely comically obese

You're only going to have noticeable balance issues if you rapidly lose or gain weight

Eh. When you're doing something as hyper-athletic as pro wrestling, it probably doesn't take too many excess pounds to make a difference in ability.

If you're going to the top rope or something, sure

Nia Jax's style certainly is not that
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Jakyl25 posted...

Ronda

Is this a joke or is she legitimately the only one?
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I dont keep track but she leapt to mind
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Lopen posted...

I'm 100% sure losing weight would make Nia a better worker.

I disagree entirely

Nia isn't dropping people and hurting them because she's heavy. She's dropping them and hurting them because she's plain and simple a bad worker. That much isn't going to change if she loses 100 pounds and changes nothing else.
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Kana has implants too?

Yay!
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I mean I can't imagine Becky is enhanced, is she?
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Jakyl25 posted...

NBIceman posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

Lopen posted...

Not necessarily. When you're heavier your balance is inherently not as good than it would be when you're light, which definitely factors into how well you can drop or throw people.

This is not true to any kind of noticeable degree unless you're absolutely comically obese

You're only going to have noticeable balance issues if you rapidly lose or gain weight

Eh. When you're doing something as hyper-athletic as pro wrestling, it probably doesn't take too many excess pounds to make a difference in ability.

https://imgur.com/3aHiWTK

These are exceptions to the rule. And Keith Lee isn't even someone I'd describe as incredibly smooth. He can do some amazing things but he gets blown up in matches fairly often and quite a few of his spots can look pretty slow and awkward at times.
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Also this is a really weird position for me because I've helped three women get implants (one a reduction) so I should probably be able to observe this a lot easier.
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Not engaging, in case anyone is sighing that Im about to derail the topic
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To be clear, I'm definitely not of the opinion that losing weight would magically make the majority of large bad wrestlers better. Bad Luck Fale dropped all those pounds recently and it certainly hasn't helped him any. But I do think it could help in some cases.
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I don't think someone like Hero needs to lose weight.

I think he needs better ring gear, though. I'm not saying "wear a shirt" so much as "a Mark Henry style singlet would look so much better."

And sometimes that works against guys, like Killian Dain looked way better in his previous ring gear than the ridiculous singlet I saw him in last night.
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Sanity needs a visit from the Fashion Police
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NBIceman posted...

To be clear, I'm definitely not of the opinion that losing weight would magically make the majority of large bad wrestlers better. Bad Luck Fale dropped all those pounds recently and it certainly hasn't helped him any. But I do think it could help in some cases.

Oh, I'm not denying it would help in some cases. I'm mainly saying it's a case by case basis instead of treating it as a blanket truth like Lopen is

Saying something like "Nia Jax would be a much safer worker if she lost weight" seems silly to me when 99% of the ways she is hurting people have nothing to do with weight, and her losing weight wouldn't magically fix that.
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Ultimately the moral here is that Dave needs to stop body shaming and induct Big Daddy to the HoF
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Speaking as someone who has had his weight vary from 160 to 240 at 6' I guarantee it makes a lot more of a difference than you think it does even at levels below morbidly obese. You need to work a lot harder to be graceful with anything particularly physically taxing with 60 or 80 extra lbs on your body, not just flips.

Like I just want us to not become so afraid of body shaming that we try to rewrite facts here. If you're fat there are a lot of things you can't do as effectively and wrestling is one of them (on both the working side and the image side because they both matter) no matter how many Samoa Joes and Kevin Owenses you can produce as attempted counter examples
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I think one of my biggest issues is that you keep discounting people like Joe, Owens, and so on as counter examples because "Oh, they worked harder," or "Oh, they got good at other stuff to make up for it" as if that's somehow not a valid answer

Basically, your argument is boiling down to a laziness issue, not a weight/body issue.

If somebody puts in the time to be a great wrestler when they're overweight, or put in the time to make up for it with character work or whatever, then that's good and we shouldn't still decide to shame them just because of how they look

If somebody is overweight and a bad wrestler because they're lazy/aren't getting better, then sure, ridicule them, but it should moreso be on the laziness

It's easy to go "Fat wrestlers suck and would be better if they weren't fat, and you can't use Owens and Joe as a counter example," but... Why can't I? It's an arbitrary restriction, and it goes against the point we're making in the first place.

If somebody puts on weight but is still putting in the work to be a good wrestler, it's dumb to body shame them

Your problem seems to be with just anybody that gets fat and lazy, but putting on weight is not an instant indication of laziness
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I think with Nia and other things here we're overlooking is fat versus muscle. Muscle makes you stronger and more capable of doing fine motor functions that wrestling requires. Fat hinders it. The reason Nia has issues is because, presumably, she has more fat than she has muscle to counteract that. It makes her more clumsy. She literally dropped Charlotte on her head because she couldn't hold her up enough and she had to drop her. I can't remember what she did to Bayley (despite being there live) so I can't speak on that. But I know Charlotte was entirely for that reason. If she lost fat and gained more muscle, I think she'd be in better shape. I think that's how guys like Owens, Joe, and Hero can do it, is because they have the muscle to back that up. I've always felt Nia did not have that.

It's also why I feel like it's disengenous to bring up an argument about Mandy Rose being 5 pounds away from being overweight when anyone who practices body building knows that the BMI is a crock of shit. The girl has like no fat on her but she has a ton of muscle. Of course she's technically going to be overweight, but if you check out her muscle to fat ratio she's killing it. Mandy Rose can do a lot more things than Nia can ever do, and if she tried to do that move Nia attempted to Charlotte, I think she'd have a much easier time of it because of her body type compared to Nia's.
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

It's also why I feel like it's disengenous to bring up an argument about Mandy Rose being 5 pounds away from being overweight when anyone who practices body building knows that the BMI is a crock of shit.

I brought it up only because the argument was a blanket "If Peyton Royce gained 50 pounds/weighed 180, we should body shame her" specifically because of that exact point. Weight gain doesn't automatically = less athletic. We're not disagreeing.
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You can't use it as a counter example to outright win an argument because there are many many many more bad 300 lb wrestlers than good ones.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to be a good wrestler while not having a great body for it, just that you will almost universally be a better wrestler as a total package if you do have one. And yes it is a form of laziness in the case of many, Kevin Owens included.
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There are many many many more bad 200lb wrestlers than good ones
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There are many, many, many more bad wrestlers than good ones, period
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Jakyl25 posted...

There are many many many more bad 200lb wrestlers than good ones

The percentage of passable 200 lbers is much higher than the percentage of passable 300 lbers
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Lopen posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

There are many many many more bad 200lb wrestlers than good ones

The percentage of passable 200 lbers is much higher than the percentage of passable 300 lbers

I would want more evidence than your word. Thats not readily apparent to me
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Lopen posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

There are many many many more bad 200lb wrestlers than good ones

The percentage of passable 200 lbers is much higher than the percentage of passable 300 lbers

I think I'd take that bet since the number of 200 lbers overall is much higher
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Daves statement from the Board (dont go there)

https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/97lhoj/dave_meltzers_comments_on_the_won_board_about_the/?st=JKVT2NRQ&sh=4ed7889c
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I mean it should be readily apparent just by observing average star ratings of cruiserweight matches vs star ratings of heavyweight matches but yeah play dumb whatever. I'm not going further down that road cause it's just not worth it.
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The way to deal with double standards is to fight them, not surrender to them.
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Saying the 20 best 200 pounders are better than the 20 best 300 pounders might be true, sure.
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Lopen posted...

I mean it should be readily apparent just by observing average star ratings of cruiserweight matches vs star ratings of heavyweight matches but yeah play dumb whatever. I'm not going further down that road cause it's just not worth it.

Yeah man it's really that easy the difference between your typical highly rated cruiserweight match and your typical highly rated heavyweight match is literally only the weight of the competitors and nothing else

I am sorry for doubting your facts

bowing emoji, bowing emoji, clapping emoji, clapping emoji, hot springs emoji
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Jakyl25 posted...

Saying the 20 best 200 pounders are better than the 20 best 300 pounders might be true, sure.

This is probably true, but he didn't actually make that argument so I'm not going to read his mind and will instead reply to what he actually said because it's more fun
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SmartMuffin posted...

The way to deal with double standards is to fight them, not surrender to them.

I think you missed the point
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Jakyl25 posted...

Saying the 20 best 200 pounders are better than the 20 best 300 pounders might be true, sure.

And you're going to claim that that's all larger sample size, even if I would reasonably argue all 20 of the top 20 200 lbers are better than the number one 300 lber?
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Lopen posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Saying the 20 best 200 pounders are better than the 20 best 300 pounders might be true, sure.

And you're going to claim that that's all larger sample size, even if I would reasonably argue all 20 of the top 20 200 lbers are better than the number one 300 lber?

Now THAT is a tough argument
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I think you missed the point

No I didn't. He basically said "This is a double standard true, but I should have known that and just shut up." Which is kind of bullshit.
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Like theres no way youre gonna find 20 cruiserweights in the world better than WALTER. No way.
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SmartMuffin posted...

I think you missed the point

No I didn't. He basically said "This is a double standard true, but I should have known that and just shut up." Which is kind of bullshit.

Okay so you didnt miss the point, you just have an overly simple take on that point
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I don't think Becky or Sasha have implants either (I know someone mentioned Becky in there, I don't believe Sasha was referenced though).
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I don't think I could either but I think it's at least worth humoring. To a level where it's being intentionally obtuse to try and attribute it to sample size. That the sample size is smaller is evidence that the weight is a hindrance in your chances to succeed.

There are a lot of terrible heavy wrestlers or attempted wrestlers out there-- most of them you only see on the lowest level indie feds and they sputter out quick. I would argue you see less of them than 200 lbers less because of a different attempt rate at being a wrestler (it is a factor don't get me wrong) and more because of a different success rate at being a wrestler because you're inherently at a disadvantage.
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Some good discussion here. I think my point of view is already represented.
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I mean, Jazzy Gabert and Piper Niven were two of the most over in the MYC, so if we want to play the percentages game, it's not too hard to for that side, either.
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Still shocked they didnt get Viper/Piper Niven for NXT UK

But maybe I shouldnt be
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Put it another way

CM Punk, Kevin Owens, Samoa Joes being dudes who are in average shape didn't stop them from being great. You can overcome that.

I would argue it is what stopped them from being legendary like The Rock and Stone Cold, and hell, even Hulk Hogan. And it's not all the push of the company being behind them. There is something to the presence of those guys that gets them over in a way that CM Punk never could be. There is something to the presence of John Cena that allows him to be as popular as he is despite not being anything super amazing in the ring or the mic (though I'm the first guy who will defend him as being good, even before it was popular opinion), and it's not a rocket boot push.

So what I'm saying is being in good shape is part of the job of being a damn good wrestler, and that it's never body shaming to discuss a wrestler's body unless they're retired or in a non-wrestling role. If you don't want to be body shamed and be as out of shape as you want, take up another profession that doesn't inherently play off your body or be ready for the criticisms.
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Thats a very unique take to digest
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