Board 8 > Scarlet Ranks User-Created Superhero Teams

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scarletspeed7 posted...

Give me an Enchantress in her spot instead. The capacity for great storytelling with Enchantress is always limitless

Amora or June Moone?
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June Moone.
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Alright, I kind of expected, but felt I should ask regardless.

Glad 3/4 of my teams are considered "good teams" to you, especially while I was complaining to myself how much better I could have done two of them.
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Eddv posted...

scarletspeed7 posted...

davidponte posted...

Do you think Deadpool is a more saturated character than Harley Quinn?

I had to drop her solo series partially because of burnout from seeing her in every single DC related thing.

Deadpool IS Harley Quinn. It's the same level of saturation. No one else even comes close to these guys. Wolverine and Batman at their worst weren't this terrible.

Gwenpool.

Even at his worst Wolverine didn't inspire that shit.

Gwenpool at least became great in her solo series. Sure her initial appearances and crossovers were pretty garbage, but Chris Hastings really turned the character on her head and made something pretty unique out of it.
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I only went with so many mutants because I dont really give a shit about any female Marvel characters and wanted to have a 50/50 split. Probably couldve swapped X-23 for Talia al-Ghul, added Gamora, and set Amanda Waller as my Bosley.
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That team would have done a little better. I like the variety in Gamora, but Talia is a hard no in any good supergroup; she can't play well with others unless it's all on her own terms. Waller is a classic choice for team leader, so she would definitely fill a missing slot in this team.
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Superhero teams how do they work.
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I spent part of today vomiting :9====0[]

No write-ups unless I'm feeling better super-late.
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No pressure scarlet, hope you feel better soon.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xuosmf1_mKs" data-time="

just bumping with this
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#42 - I Am Walking My Fish Created by: DeathChicken

Delirium
Harley Quinn
Typhoid Mary
Legion
Moon Knight

At first glance, I really liked this team. There was great variety, a common theme amongst the characters, and even a great Q factor of charismatic top talents mixed in with some lesser players. But the more I thought about this group, the less and less I thought it actually would work well in practice.

The problem with crazy is that you can only have so much of it. The unique value of unstable characters is that, when placed in a room with "normal" people, they have the opportunity to steal the show with their behavior. When you look at everyone here, they have almost all proven they can hold a title of their own. But in said titles, all of these individuals have to play off of at least one straight man. Craziness loses its potency when it encounters other craziness. Readers become inured by it. You need a reliable narrator (generally speaking). You need sanity in a title in order to create stakes. And when there is no baseline available, the title becomes untethered and ultimately falls apart.

I think some of the craziest stories I've ever read, for example, are Grant Morrison stories featuring the Justice League or Superman. When I look at the absurd threats they face down, I can't help but really see how crazy they are in comparison to the stable world established prior to the threat. You can't marvel at absurdity without understanding a world without it. Even in Morrison's most bizarre title (Doom Patrol), you have Robotman established as that sane, normal individual. And you just don't have that here, so the title will devolve into a mishmash of oddity that plays to more and more diminishing returns.

Membership Drive: I would cut Delirium from this group first and foremost. Unless she is just a guest appearance and sort of a mascot character, she is just about one of the most overpowered characters in the history of comics. I'd add a character like Count Vertigo for a more visually crazy dynamic (even though he is relatively sane) and top the title off with a main character like Aquaman. It would be this star that drives the narrative and allows us to see through his or her perspective in order to understand just why this insanity is in fact insanity.
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Yeah those were my thoughts exactly when seeing that team

Well, non-specifically anyway since I don't know all the characters, but I assumed that's what it was

I'm just saying I highly agree with crazy needing a non-crazy contrast to work, as one of the biggest crazy enthusiasts you'll ever find

It's why I don't like Borderlands as much as I should
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Whoa, I definitely disagree on Borderlands not having non-crazy. Lilith/Mordecai/Roland/Brick are pretty grounded characters, as are Axton/Maya/Sal. The wheels really come off in Pre-Sequel, but Jack is actually the non-crazy one until he's not.
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#41 - The Flying Bricks Created by: Anagram

Superman
Power Girl
Shazam
Gladiator
Sentry

I guess at this point, you would think a team of similarly powered "bricks" would have gone down earlier in this list. Hell, we watched that very concept tank pretty hard at the outset of this little project. But I have to give credit to Anagram because, whether intentionally or not, there is a lot of great variety here. So much so, in fact, that it nearly overcomes the stigma of being a one-trick pony sort of team.

Here's what I love: the chemistry. You would think Power Girl and Superman on the same team would be the sort of duplication I would expressly loathe, but the weird thing is that the interplay between these two characters isn't as explored as you would expect. Power Girl's old schtick of being a woman without a country, an origin-less character, really resonated with me. And I think putting it up against the Man of Steel, the cousin who simultaneously is and isn't, would provide a well of storytelling. Superman is the natural leader for this group, so seeing him balance Power Girl's personal internal turmoil with his duties as a leader could truly be a fount of compelling storytelling. At the same time, Billy Batson and Superman have become a classic juxtaposition. I love the childish mindset of Billy Batson compared with the unbridled optimism of Superman. It transcends superheroics and becomes the story of what wisdom truly is. It's fantastic.

Gladiator is a great wrinkle because he's a different type of alien than Superman, and you have a natural interplay there. Meanwhile, Sentry is a phenomenally interesting character, one subject to the proclivities of any given writer. For me, the balance of light and dark inside of him makes him the explosive x-factor of this group. Furthermore, after being positioned as the Superman Marvel never knew it had, Sentry going toe-to-toe with Superman from time to time would be a really unique story to watch unfold.

But it all brings us back to the fact that this team is only punchy-punchy. So as much as the front half of issues would be truly, truly great, the back halves would be the same thing over and over again. And ultimately, that's going to hurt you here. A great solo series could get away with this, but a great team title is about variety. And in terms of action, this misses the mark. Still, I think I can make this group work.

Membership Drive: How weird is this going to sound? I'm not getting rid of anybody on this team. Instead, I want to liven up the potential membership here by expanding the roster. The chemistry that already exists is fantastic. So what does this title need? It needs characters that artists can define through action. For me, that starts with Metamorpho. He's a big name with a huge variety of powers. And he can fit the brick definition as well as the flight definition. He just wouldn't be used in those contexts. He also has a very different, down-to-Earth personality that isn't really positioned in this group yet. I'd like to see someone with telepathy in this group, so I want to add Tellus from the Legion of Super-Heroes, a tanky looking character with flight who qualifies with the title. Finally, I'd like another woman on this team, so I want to include Green Lantern Brik. She's a flyer and her name is almost "brick", so I think she qualifies.
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Man, I totally forgot I made this team. I was actually unsure about including Sentry because I know he's had a number of freakouts and I wasn't 100% sure about his status as a hero.
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You're lucky that I'm a huge fan of the Sentry then. No character has ever gotten the shittier end of the deal from Marvel than him.
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I'm not saying Borderlands doesn't have non-crazy at all, but there are a lot of extended parts of the game where there isn't any sanity to speak of.

Also Lilith is a bit too wacky for my tastes.

Then again I've only played Borderlands 2 this may be less true of Borderlands
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I mean, Lilith in BL2 is just a girl in love with a boy while trying to wrestle with the powers of a god. She's really down to Earth.
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#40 - Skull Force Created by: Snake

The most awesome and extreme team of the '90s bursts onto the scene dishing out bonafide justice on the criminal underworld.

- Punisher
- Crossbones
- Taskmaster
- Ghost Rider (Johnny Blaze)
- Blazing Skull
- Chapel

This is a short-and-sweet write-up because I don't think I have to explain to Snake what works and what doesn't work here. Snake went with an emblematic superficiality for this team, although he took care to make sure that there was a certain sense of mercenary involved with every character here. Two things doomed this group now that we've moved into good teams.

The first issue is the Punisher. As I've mentioned previously, Frank Castle does not play well with others. Either you strictly adhere to his code and goals, or you're facing a nasty end. Now try positioning Taskmaster with Punisher. Or Crossbones with Punisher. Do you see the issue here? Frank could potentially tear the team apart.

That said, you can fix that pretty quickly with a drop in membership. What you can't fix here is the lack of... a reason for this team to exist. I might expect a little more out of the longer term comic readers like Snake, but when you throw the pitch in with the team, and that pitch doesn't give a reason for the team to exist, you've failed the team in question. This isn't a membership fix. This is an entire pitch failure in that respect. It doesn't excite me. I can't push this as a marquee title. I could maybe push this as an occasional guest appearance, but skulls don't equal ratings. The tie-together would be great visually but terrible in terms of storytelling. And it's not even an individual interaction issue. I think a lot of this group would be fun to see working with one another. This is an issue of the full tie-together narratively, and that really costs you in the end, Snake.
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Yeah I understand, Skull Force was my one attempt at a bit of a jokey/favorites team but I did pick the members very carefully. I actually kind of want the Punisher to attempt to tear this team apart and have a lot of dysfunction amongst its members. It also gave me a lot of laughs to put two flaming skull guys on the team so other characters constantly confuse the two. But I know, nothing cute or funny :P
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Now you all are getting it xD
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I mean, Lilith in BL2 is just a girl in love with a boy while trying to wrestle with the powers of a god. She's really down to Earth.

'Sup
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Started watching Black Lightning last night. Id heard next to nothing about it, so had I no expectations, but it seems really good so far.
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It's not bad. It suffers as the show moves forward a bit.
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Should have write-ups tomorrow.
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Well, at least it made Top 50!
I was thinking of 'female Muslim heroes' at first but got stomped quickly with only Dust and Kamala Khan (without resorting to more obscure and obviously for-Muslim titles).
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Well, without going to someone that obscure, you have Faiza Hussain.
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#39 - Cold War Created by: Pirate Harris

Some people just want the world to freeze

Mr. Freeze
Ice man
Killer frost
Blizzard
Captain cold
Icicle

On its surface, this seems like a prima facie case for one of my earlier pet peeves: duplication of efforts. And, to some extent, I would agree with this; if you look at this ranking, we're right in the middle of the pack. But I admit that I experienced something of a vision when I saw this team's line-up, and that helped boost it above the rest of the pack.

I've always enjoyed titles where a group of characters are featured thanks to happenstance or the world around said characters conspiring to put them together in the right place at the right time. When I look at this line-up, I see a group that spans the spectrum of good to gray, each character with their own goals and motivations. But the common thread - ice-based powers - inspired me to think about a world that has experienced a nigh-apocalyptic event. Some sort global weather disaster bringing about a new ice age, and, as the world spirals in the death throes of its various species, several characters predisposed to survive such an event must band together for simple survival. Much like Exiles or Walking Dead or No Man's Land, the title could explore characters who are effectively powerless aside from their ability to simply survive. In this situation, each character has different drawbacks and advantages. Mister Freeze lives in relative comfort but still would find himself at death's door should his suit be cracked; Iceman would likely be stigmatized like a witch in Salem, being seen as representative of the problems of this new world and also an outcast due to his mutant nature; Captain Cold would be the most viciously survivalist and yet also the most rational character... I really like how this team would play in this particular world. Bleak, unrepentant in its emptiness. Cold, cold hearts.

Anyways, I think there's definitely a series here. I just don't think it's the series that was intended by Pirate Harris. If you were to drop this team into a less-specialized situation in the regular MU or DCU, it would come across as a one-shot specialty team. One of those get-togethers that fans would enjoy briefly simply because of the fun involved in this gathering. In practice, this group would grind to a complete halt in an issue-to-issue situation.
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I was actually looking forward to that write-up cause I wanted to know why the heck it lasted so long

That does seem like a pretty fun plot premise though. Could easily see Mr. Freeze being the hero of that story since he seems like he could use ~SCIENCE~ to find a way to deal with the ice problem since as I understand it he's not a guy who's necessarily all bad what with the whole becoming like that as a result of trying to find a way to save his wife or whatever. Or at the very least if nothing else the event could cause him to face turn after seeing what a frozen world looks like. Him being listed first plays to that end too.
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So am I out?
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Mister Freeze is your PoV, Captain Cold is your leader. Iceman is your unhinged character. It's a lot of perspective change in my mind.
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I'm glad you think that one of my teams is good
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Two of them, really. We're definitely in good tier.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Two of them, really. We're definitely in good tier.

I'm glad that I created the absolute worst team... you know if I hadn't made that team I would've just made the sinister 6 but added venom
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#38 - Arbitrary Alliance Created by: Raetsel Lapin

Dark Claw
Mantra (Ultraverse)
Damian Wayne
Donatello (TMNT)
Spider-Ham
Adam-X the X-Treme

Longtime Board 8 comic fans will know that I'm a huge fan of the concept of Exiles, an unsung gem in the X-Family of titles that never really got the respect it deserved. Glommed together from various realities, the Exiles combated threats across the multiverse, oftentimes providing opportunities for fans to see how their favorite corner of the multiverse developed after a classic story. This team very much reminds me of that group, only with a much broader spectrum. I am a huge fan of using alternate realities in comic book storytelling. Only guys like Dan Slott and Grant Morrison ever really do the concept of a multiverse justice, but when it's done right, it's really something special. Diving headfirst into comics continuity and playing around with the fabric of spacetime itself always provides natural stakes to even the simplest of stories.

So you have to ask, why is this team ranked in the middle if I love the concept so much?

Well, first and foremost, I hate the use of the word "Arbitrary". I would never pick up a comic that features "arbitrary" on the cover. It makes the story seeming meaningless, a filler book. Secondly, I'm not a huge fan of this membership. Adam-X is a very blah character, Spider-Ham really is an overused character and not much of a joke anymore since he's been so played out, and I don't really like the idea of Donatello in this type of group. What I LOVE is Dark Claw, a character that no one else even considered putting down here. Dark Claw is a fantastic choice, and his interplay with Damian Wayne could be pretty damn interesting.

What I kind of wanted after I saw Dark Claw was a cobbled together Justice League-style pantheon team, built from the multiverse of comics. Exiles was never really able to build that great superteam, but here, I could see something really special if you use the Batman/Wolverine Amalgam as the baseline character.

Membership Drive: In this instance, I'm chucking the entire roster except for Dark Claw. He's our Hades, our master of the dark and cruel underworld. In response to him, I'm adding Samaritan from Astro City, a clear analogue to Superman but with some great wrinkles as a character. Naturally, we need a Poseidon to accompany this Zeus, and I want to go with someone unexpected - Namor of Earth-X. With his own form of dysfunction and physically difficulties, I think he'd provide a lot of room for character development. We need a Hera on this team if we have a Zeus, so I'll play it safe and go with Wonder Woman. However, I'm going to specifically go with the Brian Azzarello version from New52, guns and all. The natural next piece of this puzzle is an Apollo, so I'm going with the Tangent Green Lantern, a mystic with supernatural abilities centered around a conduit of light. Of course we need a Hermes, and I can't think of a more choice representative of Hermes than the original Quicksilver, always a must for a team that needs a little dysfunction. Of course, we lack a Hestia, the heart of the team. A center. I think Shapesmith from Invincible could be that kind of centered character, someone who cares for the well-being of the other members of the team. And you need a Dionysus, a wild card. A comic. A clown. And for that, I'll go with the Marvel Zombies version of Spider-Man.

Samaritan
Dark Claw
Namor (Earth-X)
Wonder Woman (New52)
Green Lantern (Tangent)
Quicksilver
Shapesmith
Spider-Man (Marvel Zombies)
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With the membership drive that sounds like an awesome book.
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#37 - Essentially a New Birds of Prey and Secret Six but Mixing the Metaphor Horribly WHile Also Being Unable to Count. also Fantomex is here for some reason Created by: IHateThisCPU

Tigra.
Huntress.
Siryn.
Rogue.
Cassandra Cain
Scandal.
Jeannette.
Big Barda
Hisako Ichiki / Armor
Fantomex

What I love about this team: the membership. I think there are a ton of great interactions to be had here. So many of these characters have the potential for great interactions with one another. Fantomex and Cassandra Cain? Brilliant. Jeannette and Big Barda? Wonderful. Armor and Barda? I'd love to see it.

But this team is a great example of the old adage there can be "too much of a good thing." This team is all about excess. And not a good excess, but the sort that would overwhelm a writer or an editor. Obviously the team name is utterly atrocious and clearly meant to convey an idea. But the idea itself exemplifies someone being overwhelmed. Obviously no one would publish a title that long unless it was extremely funny. Even then, it would likely get shortened at some point. But the extensive length really symbolizes the team being weighed down by too many members. CPU wants the Birds of Prey here.

Well, let's talk about what the Birds of Prey is. It's a rotating door of guests surrounding a very, very small core membership. Here, we've been given a massive core membership. The whole concept of BoP involves variety and here we can't experience that because we've decided to have a score of stars. And if this was REALLY Birds of Prey, you would have a central character serving as the crux of the title. Here, we have three potential leaders, and none of them are equipped to be BoP leaders.

But there is so much potential for these characters to work together. And I really love the idea of seeing these characters interact. What I guess we really need is a

Membership Drive: First we have to decide what this team is. An X-book? Birds? Secret Six? A Suicide Squad style team? I think that, given the membership, it's best for us to consider this a Birds of Prey title. So, Fantomex is going to be the first to go. Birds only utilizes men as guest characters. Rogue is too powerful and also not really an interesting addition to this group. What value does Cassandra provide that Huntress also provides? None, really. And Huntress has had her time as a Bird of Prey, so she needs to go. Tigra is pretty usless to this group as well. Finally, I'm kicking Siryn out of this group. She's a complete duplication of Jeannette and Jeannette has way more potential for a new writer.

Suddenly this five-woman team is much more capable of rotating guests in and out, and it also has all of the various team dynamics you had before without so much duplication!
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#36 - Quirky Detectives Created by: Tangy

Lead by Moon Knight, this team sets out to solve crimes no one else can or is willing to do. Moon Knight supplies the brains and funding, Daredevil is the agility and the brawn of the group. Plus Matt can help in the courtroom. Gwenpool does the recon with her comic knowledge and her abilities to manipulate the pages of the comic and Howard is their connection to the police, since the other characters are vigilantes and virtually can't.

Moon Knight
Daredevil
Gwenpool
Howard the Duck

There's a lot of effort put into this team, which I respect, but I really hate two pure comic relief characters put together with two characters that are grounded in gritty realism. The pitch can't seem to figure out what kind of series it is either. Isn't actually quirky? Quirky membership is usually provided by one bizarre or comedy character and several that are almost but not quite humorous. They are "funny" in the unusual sense. A fish-out-of-water series would be an example of this, like the opening salvo of Geoff Johns' Aquaman. For me, this title hinges on Gwenpool not being a terribly written Mary Sue character. The concept of Gwenpool, for me, is a huge cop-out concept. It allows the character to know whatever the writer wants the character to know. In reality, this character provides no stakes to the comic because an actual comics fan would be a completely omniscient protagonist, and that helps no one. On top of (ugh) Gwenpool, Howard comes off as superfluous because Gwenpool is already stealing all of the "comedy" screentime.

When I look at the concept of "quirky" detectives, I think of characters like Gregory House. Quirks may help define the personality of a character, but quirky isn't solely relegated to the realm of absurdist humor. In fact, absurdist humor is going to hurt the idea of a detective series. And that's what this is, first and foremost. Moon Knight and Daredevil are street-level superstars, both flirting with the pulpy noir flavor. You have to buttress that flavor with characters who don't destroy it immediately.

Membership Drive: You can keep Gwenpool or you can keep Howard the Duck. I won't choose because I, personally, have such a distaste for the concept of Gwenpool both as a hackneyed attempt at marketing and also as a character with such a flimsy and irritating concept. But it's your choice. What I WILL suggest is that you read X-Factor and steal a couple members from the mid-2000s version of the team. That was a group that DEFINED "quirky detectives" while they operated out of a investigative office. Another good character for this group would be a Black Alice or Misfit type, cribbing the quirkiness from Birds of Prey.
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Quirk Detectives without the Question?
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#35 - DC Illuminati Created by: Girugamesh

Batman
Aquaman
Dr Fate
Ganthet
Rip Hunter
Danny the Street

There's another team that effectively was pitched as the same type of team. I'll talk about that one later.

Here's what I hate about this idea: Girugamesh tried to crib the Marvel Illuminati with a well-crafted but ultimately obvious pastiche of the original team. Aquaman is Namor's stand-in, Doctor Fate for Doctor Strange, etc. And while that is cute and it actually would function well as a team, we're beyond simple function for the most part. I want to talk about, philosophically, what makes this idea suck for me.

DC is not a universe of conspiracy. Marvel is. If you want flawed machinations and skulduggery and retroactive motivation changes, go to Marvel. DC will make a giant, bloated mess of its continuity in order to bend over backwards for writers. If you look at the retroactive changes in DC, it really comes down to Max Lord and Max Lord only. Characters in DC evolve forward, and in Marvel they tend to evolve backwards. DC is much more apt to create a United Nations for superheroes and Marvel is much more likely to reveal an Illuminati has been there all along. It's a small distinction to some, but to others it will feel like night and day. DC is West Wing, Marvel is House of Cards.

So when I'm told, "Batman is going to run a group that's all about conspiring in an authoritarian way to essentially hold the entire DCU back," I can't believe you. Even the most militant Frank Miller wet dream Batman doesn't operate that way. Batman is a fixer, not a setter. Iron Man is definitely a guy with delusions of fascism in his pocket. DC is optimistic and Marvel is woefully pessimistic. I just can't see this group operating as an Illuminati. Even the most secretive organizations in DC are cloistered protectorates and seem to buy into the same hype as the Justice League. Consider that the Suicide Squad is, ultimately, about redemption. The Avengers themselves don't even subscribe to that mantra. They are all about meting out the justice that makes them feel good.

Long story short, I would refuse to accept this concept in DC on general principal. It's characters are better than that.
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Hang on I can fix this team - they just wouldn't be heroes.

Lex Luthor on a "no seriously Im a good Guy" kick
Ocean Master (while he was King of Atlantis)
General Sam Lane
Red Lantern Guy Gardner, protector of earth
Hawkman (Carter Hall version) rather than Dr Fate as their artifact/magic guy
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I figured that team would be my next one out. That was definitely my favorites team though. In hindsight I should've probably taken Tasky off Bro Squad and moved him over here instead of Howard.

Either way they got muched farther than I expected and I'll definitely check out that X-factor series
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#34 - The Four Kings Created by: Murphiroth

King Thor
Black Panther
Aquaman
Geo-Force

I like the concept, and I like the membership except for Thor. Thor is not a king in the way the other guys are. The worst part is, that the other three guys are all kings in the way that promotes stories of a different nature than normal comic bookery. Political intrigue, diplomatic snafus... it works for the other kings because they are kings of places on Earth. They can have some actual examination, some compare and contrast. The value in royalty and monarchy in different cultures could be explored as can the role of a king. This is a lens for a dynamic of each of these rulers that you hardly ever see. But Thor is a play-king. He's operating as a monarch in the most boring sense of it. It's all fantasy and no reality. There's nothing about Thor as king that plumbs the depths of government, society and humanity like the other three.

But those other three... man, there's a sight to see. I could write a series all about their various relationships both in and out of the public eye. In fact, I can see it now. Panther, an underwater king, and a eastern European monarch. All hanging out together. Wait, where have I seen that before? http://images.comiccollectorlive.com/covers/483/483c14fd-8b7e-47dd-93d5-efc3d653f78d_tn.jpg
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I partly went for powerset coverage with that one! With Aquaman having control of the oceans and Geo-Force the land, Thor would have the skies covered. BP is the tech/stealth angle plus he's got his King of the Dead stuff.

But yeah King Thor isn't exactly a king in the same sense as the others.

Also considered throwing Doom in place of Thor but felt like he'd inevitably backstab them all by the end of like the first issue.
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So is there a particularly good fourth king you can think of for that group or is it a group that would just be better as a three man band, disqualifying it?
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Oh and I didn't really expect that to be my first one down! Thought God Squad would be gone way back at the start.
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Lopen posted...

So is there a particularly good fourth king you can think of for that group or is it a group that would just be better as a three man band, disqualifying it?

Hippolyta
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Lopen posted...

So is there a particularly good fourth king you can think of for that group or is it a group that would just be better as a three man band, disqualifying it?

Hippolyta

I considered her too! But I'll confess I had a compulsion to make the teams equal in terms of DC and Marvel characters. I like symmetry even when it's detrimental.
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The thing is, I wouldn't have penalized Doctor Doom at all. He acts completely differently as a monarch than as a super-villain. And imagine the clash between 'Lyta and Doom.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

The thing is, I wouldn't have penalized Doctor Doom at all.

Never expected to read this sentence, regardless of context.
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