Poll of the Day > Honest query: Are people who call ICE on undocumented citizens bad people?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Personally I feel like most people wouldn't have a real reason to do this beyond malicious ones

but lets see what PotD thinks
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Why would obeying the law make you a bad person?
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Lokarin posted...

Why would obeying the law make you a bad person?

Laws don't always line up with our personal morals so I'm trying to gauge how we feel about calling immigration enforcement since it's a legal tiff but morally also
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Lokarin posted...

Why would obeying the law make you a bad person?

Laws don't always line up with our personal morals so I'm trying to gauge how we feel about calling immigration enforcement since it's a legal tiff but morally also

That's a pathetic excuse for flouting the law. As for morality, people who choose to cheat the system by sneaking across the border or overstaying rather than waiting their turn -- thereby cutting the line formed by everybody who wants to do things the right way -- are bad on that grounds alone. For the sake of everybody who does things the wrong way, you have a moral imperative to report those breaking the law to gain an unfair advantage.
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Zeus posted...

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Lokarin posted...

Why would obeying the law make you a bad person?

Laws don't always line up with our personal morals so I'm trying to gauge how we feel about calling immigration enforcement since it's a legal tiff but morally also

That's a pathetic excuse for flouting the law.

I'm a weirdo though, I'm a legal moralist... basically, whatever is Law is moral.
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Zeus posted...

That's a pathetic excuse for flouting the law.

If everyone just accepted established law as moral we'd still have slaves...?
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Zeus posted...

That's a pathetic excuse for flouting the law.

If everyone just accepted established law as moral we'd still have slaves...?

Which is pathetic argument and the ultimate in bad faith equivocations. Immigration laws are inherently just and, along with borders, are what makes a country a country. Also, I edited my response while you were quoting it.

Zeus posted...

That's a pathetic excuse for flouting the law. As for morality, people who choose to cheat the system by sneaking across the border or overstaying rather than waiting their turn -- thereby cutting the line formed by everybody who wants to do things the right way -- are bad on that grounds alone. For the sake of everybody who does things the wrong way, you have a moral imperative to report those breaking the law to gain an unfair advantage.

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Zeus posted...

Which is pathetic argument and the ultimate in bad faith equivocations.

Some people believe that even undocumented citizens should have a fair shot. I'll admit the comparison to slavery is kinda bad but I think my point stands: the law isn't always moral and morals always change.
Emigrating to the US isn't the easiest thing to do in the normal process

there's also a lot to suggest that undocumented citizens are not actually as big a burden on society as we think, even if a large influx of population always increases crime regardless of where they came from or their immigration legality (they still pay taxes for example thru sales tax etc)

PERSONALLY I feel like if you cross illegally you're playing your chances and if you get caught that's that... but I wouldn't try to deny anyone their chance at the American dream just because I don't like that they came here without waiting 25 years for a chance at a green card or having relatives in the US already
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Laws could ALSO change.
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Some people believe that even undocumented citizens should have a fair shot

They *had* a fair shot. It's called the legal immigration process, the same shot that everybody else gets. However, they said, "We don't like this so we're just going to do what we want," and, because enforcement in the US is a joke even compared to the more liberal Canada, they're emboldened to cheat.

If you have a group standing in line and one guy says, "Fuck this, I'm just going in," and sneaks into the building, do you consider that fair? Because "I don't like the rules that everybody else is following so I'm going to ignore them for my advantage" is the antithesis of fair.

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Emigrating to the US isn't the easiest thing to do in the normal process

Emigrating *from*. You immigrate to, you emigrate from. And emigrating *from* the US likely isn't that hard a process, although it's easier to get into the US than other nations.

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

there's also a lot to suggest that undocumented citizens are not actually as big a burden on society as we think, even if a large influx of population always increases crime regardless of where they came from or their immigration legality (they still pay taxes for example thru sales tax etc)

Weasel words. As for taxes, not only do sales taxes represent a small portion of overall taxes, but not every state has them in the first place.

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

PERSONALLY I feel like if you cross illegally you're playing your chances and if you get caught that's that... but I wouldn't try to deny anyone their chance at the American dream just because I don't like that they came here without waiting 25 years for a chance at a green card or having relatives in the US already

And you'd be rewarding people who break the rules while punishing everybody who followed them. And, of course, if illegal immigration wasn't such a problem, the process would be faster for legal immigrants.
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Zeus posted...

If you have a group standing in line and one guy says, "Fuck this, I'm just going in," and sneaks into the building, do you consider that fair? Because "I don't like the rules that everybody else is following so I'm going to ignore them for my advantage" is the antithesis of fair.

People don't just illegally immigrate into the US to "take advantage" of our system, though. I think that's a disingenuous and deliberately negative view to take of them. And I sincerely believe if the face of the average illegal immigrant was Asian (there are tons) and not Mexican we wouldn't have this. But that's not really relevant here.
It's because where they live can get so bad they are digging tunnels and climbing electric fences to get to a nation where half the nation treats them like subhumans (obviously there are bad elements that follow but I already touched on this, though you called them "weasel words")

Zeus posted...

Emigrating *from*.

Woopsy I used the wrong word

Zeus posted...

And, of course, if illegal immigration wasn't such a problem, the process would be faster for legal immigrants.

I don't believe this.
I have family members in sham green card marriages who got married in the 80s. Immigration was never easy into the United States for anyone, it was never fast, and the green card system is horrendously flawed, imo. The laws are also not very well enforced, as you pointed out.

How do you feel about employers deliberately using undocumented workers so they can pay them less?
They are openly flouting the rules so they can get some extra cash. Not to change the subject, just curious
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Why should it be fast and easy to become a citizen of another nation?
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dragon504 posted...

Why should it be fast and easy to become a citizen of another nation?

It shouldn't.
It should be efficient and fair. Tell me what would be bad about a big influx of ready and willing documented workers in the United States? (oh you mean we wouldn't be able to pay them less than minimum wage then oh no)
It shouldn't be a lottery system based on the state of the world 40 years ago
And as unfair as it is on paper that undocumented immigrants get to be in the US and make use of our infrastructure

PERSONALLY I think the USA has always been the champion of human rights, justice, and compassion
so I think we as Americans have a duty to make a country that everyone wants to be a part of
and we should enable people to do that as often as they can
*and we should be as safe, logical, and compassionate about is as we can, while not ignoring the very large reality that a big population increase often comes with bad stuff too
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OjTspCqvk8" data-time="

White Americans, what
Nothing better to do
Why don't you kick yourself out
You're an immigrant too
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Yellow posted...

You're an immigrant too

A legal immigrant.
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Lokarin posted...

Why would obeying the law make you a bad person?

btw i just want to point out
calling ICE isn't part of the law
you have no legal obligation to do so

idk why i didn't notice this the first time

Lokarin posted...

A legal immigrant.

i mean technically none of us are supposed to be here but that's America isn't it
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

btw i just want to point out
calling ICE isn't part of the law
you have no legal obligation to do so

idk why i didn't notice this the first time

Oh!

In that case I wouldn't, I was under the impression you were required to
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Anyone who does anything out of spite and tries to hide behind "it's the law" is a horrible person.
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

i mean technically none of us are supposed to be here

That's such a bullshit argument. Anyone who uses it immediately loses all credibility on the subject.
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EvilMegas posted...

Anyone who does anything out of spite and tries to hide behind "it's the law" is a horrible person.

I don't want to do it out of spite, but the Law is ma morals. I sympathize with poor people and I hope the law changes.
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Bugmeat posted...

That's such a bullshit argument. Anyone who uses it immediately loses all credibility on the subject.

Good thing I'm not using it to answer or argue an answer to the Topic's question
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Rat out illegal immigrants if they're contributing less doing something someone legal could be doing instead of them, otherwise capitalise on serendipitous gains.
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Bugmeat posted...

That's such a bullshit argument. Anyone who uses it immediately loses all credibility on the subject.

Kick out the natives? You get casinos and a couple parks and fuck off, it's ours now.

Kidnap the blacks? We made it legal so it was fine.

Segregated and screwed blacks systematically into ghettos? Not our fault. We're hard workers, that's why we're not in there.

Mexicans didn't do the paper work? Get the fuck off our land, lol.

Illegal immigrants been here since they were 5? Uh, did you not hear the word illegal?

Mexicans didn't fuck up your country, Nafta and technology did. Nafta is the real open border. Instead, they like to pit poor people against poor people. I get people wanting to keep them out, but when people want to kick them out, that's when my hypocrisy detector goes through the roof. You live in America bitch, no one is supposed to be here.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Rat out illegal immigrants if they're contributing less doing something someone legal could be doing instead of them, otherwise capitalise on serendipitous gains.

How utilitarian of you
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Yellow posted...

Kick out the natives? You get casinos and a couple parks and fuck off, it's ours now.

That's how conquest works, lrn2war.

Yellow posted...

Kidnap the blacks? We made it legal so it was fine.

And bought them, so you know, nobody's exactly got clean hands there.

Yellow posted...

Segregated and screwed blacks systematically into ghettos? Not our fault. We're hard workers, that's why we're not in there.

That's accurate now, so basically anybody under 30s has no excuse for living in the ghetto if they want to leave.

Yellow posted...

Mexicans didn't do the paper work? Get the fuck off our land, lol.

Yup, don't expect to live somewhere peacefully when you don't follow the landowner's rules.

Yellow posted...

Illegal immigrants been here since they were 5? Uh, did you not hear the word illegal?

Their parents illegally trafficked them to a semi-hostile country, they need to be returned home where they can take proper channels to enter if they wish. They're not at fault so shouldn't be punished, unlike their criminal parents.

Yellow posted...

Mexicans didn't fuck up your country, Nafta and technology did. Nafta is the real open border. Instead, they like to pit poor people against poor people. I get people wanting to keep them out, but when people want to kick them out, that's when my hypocrisy detector goes through the roof. You live in America bitch, no one is supposed to be here.

Everybody's fucking up everything, and a weak border is one of many issues, fuck the government and fuck invaders.
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Oh here I was optimistically hoping you were just a utilitarian
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No, he's crazy.
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Rat out illegal immigrants if they're contributing less doing something someone legal could be doing instead of them, otherwise capitalise on serendipitous gains.

How utilitarian of you

This is how you get a successful country, you only help others when you have resources to spare.

YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Oh here I was optimistically hoping you were just a utilitarian

Oh, I am. I am just pure utilitarian, min maxing and securing footholds, not taking on excess burden 'cause muh feels.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

This is how you get a successful country, you only help others when you have resources to spare.

IDRC about anything else you said cause that's your opinion but
America definitely has the resources to spare lmao
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Also, realtalk - I thought it was INS, not ICE
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YOUHAVENOHOPE posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

This is how you get a successful country, you only help others when you have resources to spare.

IDRC about anything else you said cause that's your opinion but
America definitely has the resources to spare lmao

Lolno. The resources are locked away in billionaire's vaults and government caches, the resources aren't actually available for use. We could forcibly liberate these funds but it would be costly and may well make America not even have the resources left to distribute.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Lolno. The resources are locked away in billionaire's vaults and government caches, the resources aren't actually available for use.

I don't see how this changes anything I said.
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Lokarin posted...

Also, realtalk - I thought it was INS, not ICE

https://www.uscis.gov/archive/blog/2011/04/did-you-know-ins-no-longer-exists

Each month, USCIS publishes a report on traffic to our website, which includes statistics on popular search terms people use to find our site. And every month, tens of thousands of visitors search INS to find us. In January 2011, our report registered nearly 30,000 searches for the term INS.

This leaves us wondering. After all, the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) has not existed since March 1, 2003. On that date, most INS functions were transferred from the Department of Justice to three new components within the newly formed Department of Homeland Security. USCIS is one of those three components. U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) are the other two.

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bump for day potd
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Backing up though; If you call ICE on a visible minority and they actually do have their documentation... you ARE a bad person!
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And how exactly do they have proof that there is no documentation?
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I voted maybe, as it depends on the situation. Its never going to be 100% bad or good.

Lokarin posted...

Backing up though; If you call ICE on a visible minority and they actually do have their documentation... you ARE a bad person!

There is no way for the average guy to know if someone is illegal or not. People only do it out of spite, take your meds, boyo.
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WTF is an undocumented citizen? If you're calling Immigration and Customs Enforcement on someone it's because that person isn't a US citizen.
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SKARDAVNELNATE posted...

If you're calling Immigration and Customs Enforcement on someone it's because that person isn't a US citizen.

BRB calling ICE on the Chinese tourists at the space needle
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EvilMegas posted...

Lokarin posted...

Backing up though; If you call ICE on a visible minority and they actually do have their documentation... you ARE a bad person!

There is no way for the average guy to know if someone is illegal or not. People only do it out of spite, take your meds, boyo.

If you didn't know, then you're false alarming.
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Lokarin posted...

EvilMegas posted...

Lokarin posted...

Backing up though; If you call ICE on a visible minority and they actually do have their documentation... you ARE a bad person!

There is no way for the average guy to know if someone is illegal or not. People only do it out of spite, take your meds, boyo.

If you didn't know, then you're false alarming.

Lok, my guy. Keep up here: DUH
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EvilMegas posted...

Lokarin posted...

EvilMegas posted...

Lokarin posted...

Backing up though; If you call ICE on a visible minority and they actually do have their documentation... you ARE a bad person!

There is no way for the average guy to know if someone is illegal or not. People only do it out of spite, take your meds, boyo.

If you didn't know, then you're false alarming.

Lok, my guy. Keep up here: DUH

I'm very sleepy: I don't like being misrepresented, but I'm not articulate.

My summary so far is that I'm a Legal Moralist, but since it's not legally required to report illegals there's no reason to report them unless they're violent or something. Likewise, someone just randomly reported without evidence is being a dink.
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I'd imagine most people have their personal stance on how illegal something is when they or something else is breaking the law and whether or not it should be reported.

Take for example speeding. Technically it is illegal but most people do it without repercussion. Some I'd imagine let their family members drink at a family party even if they're minors. Hell, how many folks have even driven while buzz. Of course it can get as severe as stealing, domestic abuse, or murder at which point I'd imagine even some family members might be hard pressed on reporting it.

I wouldn't consider people who report undocumented people as bad nor would I consider it good either. Are they, the one doing the reporting, following the law in the scenario, yes. Are they potentially ruining the lives of a family who may be guilty of nothing more than entering the country illegally, yes. As some have suggested, something being lawful is not the same as being morally good. Slavery at one point in this country was lawful. Discrimination at one point was lawful. Ironically I was thinking of the idea to judge yourself before you judge others. Ironically I was thinking of the idea/statement to judge yourself before you judge others.
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I hate our prison system so I would probably not call the police on many criminals as long as they were not a danger to other people.

The same is not true for someone here illegally though if they break a law, especially if they are driving without a license etc. It sort of breaks the system. I would not go out of my way to report someone just because, but if they were a danger to others, I would consider it.

I do think you should only be here legally, but that people should be given opportunities to come here and fill jobs legally (including people who are already here illegally...they actually should get first shot).

After doing that, and converting as many people to legal citizens as possible in this country, I think we should seriously crack down and get rid of anyone who does not come forward and become a legal citizen, and of course prevent all or at least almost all, illegal immigration in the future.

This could be done in part by people who we had become legal citizens even (filling some of the border patrol jobs, although in a way that wouldn't make any leaks or the ability to let people in).

As far as the argument that we are all not supposed to be here. I do wish the Native Americans had been able to live in peace, but honestly technology was advancing in the world and would have continued to do so, and if America was not created, another country would have taken over anyway, there was sadly no way for them to continue to live in this land in peace without ruining their own culture and using technology as well.

In addition most of the people here now are legal immigrants or their decendents (including me). My family was not here (either side) during slavery, or when the land was stolen from the Native Americans. I certainly had no part in it, and even my ancestors didn't.

This is our nation now, and we should work together to ensure it is as safe and free as possible. Part of that is having rules that everyone needs to follow, and the only way to ensure that easily, is to make sure everyone is a legal citizen and accountable for what they do.
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Ya, your prisons are kinda garbage - there's some evidence showing that just letting all the criminals free would actually reduce the net amount of crime, although I highly doubt that was a double-blind study
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I'm fine with people overstaying their visa's
as long as there is a record of their existence in this country and another then they can stay here as long as they want

RoboXgp89 posted...

they're here because it's a christian country

our founders had christian ideals but wanted to escape religious fundamentalism to form a secular nation

we're not a christian country, even if we are inspired by christian ideals

america is about freedom of expression, practice of religion

in this aspect you are wrong
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I know that religion is bullshit but the idea of going to someone elses country to build a mosque is just as bullshit to me too
star wars is a relgion to some people...

RoboXgp89 posted...

I know that religion is bullshit but the idea of going to someone elses country to build a mosque is just as bullshit to me too
star wars is a relgion to some people...

you're mad because people came here and practiced their religion in freedom?
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