Poll of the Day > In Norway, everyone's tax returns are public.

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/apr/11/when-it-comes-to-tax-transparency-norway-leads-the-field

We should do that here.

Fine with me. I don't mind if someone I know possibly looking what what I earn, from where, how much taxes I pay, and whether or not I actually pay my Use Tax. So long as the vital information is kept private, what actual harm is there to such transparency?
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I am uncomfortable even having my boss know how much money I make (which I found out last April is more then him), having my mom know how much money I make...god she wouldn't stop asking me for money.
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Dikitain posted...

I am uncomfortable even having my boss know how much money I make

Why?
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Dikitain posted...

stop asking me for money.

So, can I have some money please?
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Clench281 posted...

Dikitain posted...

I am uncomfortable even having my boss know how much money I make

Why?

Read what is in the parenthesis.
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Dikitain posted...

Clench281 posted...

Dikitain posted...

I am uncomfortable even having my boss know how much money I make

Why?

Read what is in the parenthesis.

Yeah, that doesn't answer the question.
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Clench281 posted...

Dikitain posted...

Clench281 posted...

Dikitain posted...

I am uncomfortable even having my boss know how much money I make

Why?

Read what is in the parenthesis.

Yeah, that doesn't answer the question.

Yes, it does.
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Why tf should my tax returns be between anyone but me and the government? Quit trying to nose around in other people's business

More equitable wages and accountability, sounds good
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OhhhJa posted...

Why tf should my tax returns be between anyone but me and the government? Quit trying to nose around in other people's business

If you humans would just be trustworthy then we wouldn't need to check if you're cheating all the time.
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The only thing this would create is the "little me" mentality. We are already comparing ourselves to others, this would make it worse

OhhhJa posted...

Why tf should my tax returns be between anyone but me and the government? Quit trying to nose around in other people's business

The government *is* people's business. The data would be very useful from a public perspective to analyse who is paying the most and who is paying little or none, and for what reason.

Dikitain posted...

I am uncomfortable even having my boss know how much money I make (which I found out last April is more then him)

a) I'm amazed your boss doesn't have access to your pay information already. That's pretty standard in most businesses.
b) Where do you work that your boss makes less than you? That also sounds very strange.
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darkknight109 posted...

b) Where do you work that your boss makes less than you? That also sounds very strange.

While obviously uncommon, it does happen for a few different reasons.

One common reason is that the employee makes more simply because he's more experienced. Was probably offered the position as boss and declined it, or otherwise expressed they weren't interested in it. It's a completely different skill set managing people than it is just working on the projects.

Another reason is the boss got hired from outside the company, and negotiated his/her salary poorly. And now they're in a position where they need to prove themselves before renegotiating. But this is usually short lived assuming the boss knows their employees make more. They'll either demand more money or they'll leave once they find out typically.

And I guess a third reason could be they just really suck at negotiating and don't really care.
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This is a bad idea and like most things Norway does we should ignore it.
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I see no real benefit to public returns -- except for government workers -- and plenty of detriments.
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Dikitain posted...

Clench281 posted...

Dikitain posted...

Clench281 posted...

Dikitain posted...

I am uncomfortable even having my boss know how much money I make

Why?

Read what is in the parenthesis.

Yeah, that doesn't answer the question.

Yes, it does.

Okay, if I have to draw it out from you, why are you uncomfortable with your boss knowing that you make more money than them?
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Clench281 posted...

Dikitain posted...

Clench281 posted...

Dikitain posted...

Clench281 posted...

Dikitain posted...

I am uncomfortable even having my boss know how much money I make

Why?

Read what is in the parenthesis.

Yeah, that doesn't answer the question.

Yes, it does.

Okay, if I have to draw it out from you, why are you uncomfortable with your boss knowing that you make more money than them?

I would guess because somebody's generally going to be pretty reluctant to give a raise to a subordinate that already makes more than them, or at least that that's what he's concerned about. It might even lead to a pay cut.
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adjl posted...

I would guess because somebody's generally going to be pretty reluctant to give a raise to a subordinate that already makes more than them, or at least that that's what he's concerned about. It might even lead to a pay cut.

michaelscottsalarynegotiation.gif
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darkknight109 posted...

The government *is* people's business. The data would be very useful from a public perspective to analyse who is paying the most and who is paying little or none, and for what reason.

The government is but not my personal finances. We already know who pays what. You can look at tax brackets for that. And if someone finds ways to get tax breaks then more power to them. That's not my business nor is it yours

Lightning Bolt posted...

OhhhJa posted...

Why tf should my tax returns be between anyone but me and the government? Quit trying to nose around in other people's business

If you humans would just be trustworthy then we wouldn't need to check if you're cheating all the time.

So because there are a few greedy people, I should be forced to make public what I consider to be private information? What makes you think any of these rich assholes would even care if you knew they didn't pay their fair share?

adjl posted...

I would guess because somebody's generally going to be pretty reluctant to give a raise to a subordinate that already makes more than them, or at least that that's what he's concerned about. It might even lead to a pay cut.

Bingo!

darkknight109 posted...

b) Where do you work that your boss makes less than you? That also sounds very strange.

1) I have 7 years more seniority then him, all of that in the space I currently work in. He has barely worked a year in our division while I have over 10.
2) I was smart enough to re-negotiate my salary when I got a promotion 5 years ago, putting me in a much higher pay bracket then a lot of people in the company.
3) It is pretty common in technology for managers to be payed less then their employees. We are valuable, they are easily replaceable.
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Clench281 posted...

Dikitain posted...

Clench281 posted...

Dikitain posted...

Clench281 posted...

Dikitain posted...

I am uncomfortable even having my boss know how much money I make

Why?

Read what is in the parenthesis.

Yeah, that doesn't answer the question.

Yes, it does.

Okay, if I have to draw it out from you, why are you uncomfortable with your boss knowing that you make more money than them?

Are you being serious right now?

I'd rather minimize the number of government mandates that invade my privacy, so no thanks.

If this happened:
Inb4 some sjw nutjobs "the government is systematically oppressive" because "minorities deserve extra leeway or something and that they shouldnt have to pay as much tax as white people."

OhhhJa posted...

And if someone finds ways to get tax breaks then more power to them. That's not my business nor is it yours

It kind of is, actually. Tax dollars are public money. If somebody's getting out of paying their fair share of taxes, that's less public money than there should be, and everybody suffers for that. Ergo, everyone should know what they're missing out on because of that person's greed. Tax breaks exist because some people have needs that mean they can't afford pay as much in taxes as they otherwise would be expected to, and that's fine, but when it's just a matter of wanting more money and not actually needing it, that's cheating the system.
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adjl posted...

OhhhJa posted...

And if someone finds ways to get tax breaks then more power to them. That's not my business nor is it yours

It kind of is, actually. Tax dollars are public money. If somebody's getting out of paying their fair share of taxes, that's less public money than there should be, and everybody suffers for that. Ergo, everyone should know what they're missing out on because of that person's greed. Tax breaks exist because some people have needs that mean they can't afford pay as much in taxes as they otherwise would be expected to, and that's fine, but when it's just a matter of wanting more money and not actually needing it, that's cheating the system.

Which is so typical of the far-leftist view that the government owns everything and by their grace we're allowed to have anything which completely misses that our system was set up so government could work for the people instead of the other way around.

As for a person's "fair share" of taxes, that's literally decided by the tax code. If they're paying into the system, they're paying their fair share. It's not some arbitrary determination by a far-leftist -- who doesn't understand the system in the least -- to claw at their bank because he feels he deserves the money more than the people who worked for it. Tax breaks exist to be used. It's part of the tax code. There's no "need" argument involved, especially since the neediest group is broadly exempt from most taxes anyway and then, on top of them, are gifted money from the government.

However, if you're so insistent on tax dollars being transparent because it's public money, why aren't you insisting that the government list everybody on the dole and how much they get by benefit? Then everybody would be able to see who actually needs it and who's being greedy, right? (Granted, it *would* make fraud easier to find.)
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adjl posted...

OhhhJa posted...

And if someone finds ways to get tax breaks then more power to them. That's not my business nor is it yours

It kind of is, actually. Tax dollars are public money. If somebody's getting out of paying their fair share of taxes, that's less public money than there should be, and everybody suffers for that. Ergo, everyone should know what they're missing out on because of that person's greed. Tax breaks exist because some people have needs that mean they can't afford pay as much in taxes as they otherwise would be expected to, and that's fine, but when it's just a matter of wanting more money and not actually needing it, that's cheating the system.

It's not cheating the system if it's legal. Blame the tax regulations but don't blame someone for taking advantage of them. The tax code is available to the public. It's nobody's fault but your own for being ignorant to the available tax breaks. A big one that most wealthy people take advantage of is charity though. That's the main deduction for most people of great wealth. You wanna get that break? Donate to charity

@Kyuubi4269
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Zeus posted...

Which is so typical of the far-leftist view that the government owns everything and by their grace we're allowed to have anything which completely misses that our system was set up so government could work for the people instead of the other way around.

Or, you know, that paying a certain percentage of your income is the price of admission for living in the country and taking advantage of all of the public spending programs. Nowhere did I suggest that that percentage should be 100%, so I'm not sure what's with the desperate hyperbole.

Zeus posted...

As for a person's "fair share" of taxes, that's literally decided by the tax code.

I like how you switched tax (>.>) so quickly to "the government knows best and what they say goes verbatim" from "we shouldn't trust the government with so much of our money." It's no secret that the tax code is a convoluted mess, full of loopholes that get exploited for reasons far beyond their original intent. The basic intent of the tax code is to tax people based on what they can comfortably afford to contribute to the running of the country. Ergo, people paying less than what they can comfortably afford are not paying their fair share. That's just how the tax code is supposed to work.

Zeus posted...

There's no "need" argument involved, especially since the neediest group is broadly exempt from most taxes anyway and then, on top of them, are gifted money from the government.

Sure there's a need argument involved. Somebody who makes $60,000 a year and is also putting two kids through college can't comfortably afford the same amount of taxes that somebody who's making $60,000 a year without children can. They don't have to be the neediest to have needs. What an absurd notion.

Zeus posted...

However, if you're so insistent on tax dollars being transparent because it's public money, why aren't you insisting that the government list everybody on the dole and how much they get by benefit? Then everybody would be able to see who actually needs it and who's being greedy, right? (Granted, it *would* make fraud easier to find.)

That would be implied by "everyone's tax returns," yes. "Everyone" doesn't mean "rich people," as much as the focus here is on preventing legal tax evasion.

OhhhJa posted...

It's not cheating the system if it's legal.

It's cheating the intent behind the system. It's definitely exploiting its shortcomings, which would generally be considered cheating if it were, say, a video game.

OhhhJa posted...

The tax code is available to the public. It's nobody's fault but your own for being ignorant to the available tax breaks.

Not really. Technically, yes, anyone can view the tax code and find all the breaks they're eligible for, but that's not a reasonable expectation for anyone not getting paid to do so. The tax code is terribly complex, and there's a mountain of legal precedent to sift through to figure out whether or not ambiguities can be interpreted in your favour, such that optimizing taxes is a far larger time commitment than most people can manage. This is why people pay accountants, and the best accountants (who can find the most breaks) tend to charge more than any middle-class person will make from those breaks. Ergo, cheating the system. Or maybe just that the system's pay-to-win, to make another video game analogy.
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Dikitain posted...

adjl posted...

I would guess because somebody's generally going to be pretty reluctant to give a raise to a subordinate that already makes more than them, or at least that that's what he's concerned about. It might even lead to a pay cut.

Bingo!

This argument doesn't make any sense though. If someone has the power to set your salary, it naturally follows that they will know what you earn. If they never know what their subordinate earns, they must not have the power to set that person's salary.

If they are going to be part of the conversation of salary negotiations, part of that conversation is weighed against what that employee currently earns. The whole premise of raises or re-negotiating salary is that you believe your compensation is not in line with what you are worth. And intrinsic part of that argument is what you currently earn.

Regardless, salary transparency leads to everyone being paid more fairly what they are actually worth.
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Well, yes. His boss knowing what he earns is kind of inevitable. He can still feel a little uneasy about it, though.
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Smarkil posted...

@Kyuubi4269

Yes, @Smarkil?
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adjl posted...

Ergo, everyone should know what they're missing out on because of that person's greed. Tax breaks exist because some people have needs that mean they can't afford pay as much in taxes as they otherwise would be expected to, and that's fine, but when it's just a matter of wanting more money and not actually needing it, that's cheating the system.

You don't get tax breaks without contributing something that is worthy of one though. As I said before, charity is a huge deduction for wealthy folks as well as job creation. If you take away these tax breaks, you take away the incentive to do these things

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Smarkil posted...

@Kyuubi4269

Yes, @Smarkil?

I know you care about privacy. I can only assume you believe Norway to be corrupt.
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Smarkil posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Smarkil posted...

@Kyuubi4269

Yes, @Smarkil?

I know you care about privacy. I can only assume you believe Norway to be corrupt.

Companies always act as shittily as they can to make money, letting people check said companies aren't pulling some internal BS like paying friends more for the same work is pretty beneficial.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Companies always act as shittily as they can to make money, letting people check said companies aren't pulling some internal BS like paying friends more for the same work is pretty beneficial.

Oh right, cause government doesn't do that
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Smarkil posted...

Kyuubi4269 posted...

Companies always act as shittily as they can to make money, letting people check said companies aren't pulling some internal BS like paying friends more for the same work is pretty beneficial.

Oh right, cause government doesn't do that

The purpose of companies is to offer as little as possible to make as much as possible, their very existence promotes the easiest way to take people's stuff. The primary purpose of government is to protect and further public interest, thieving and abuse is secondary and is as high a priority as with any other person.

Please take note that government officials aren't exempt from giving out tax returns and are also checked at this level.
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adjl posted...

Or, you know, that paying a certain percentage of your income is the price of admission for living in the country and taking advantage of all of the public spending programs. Nowhere did I suggest that that percentage should be 100%, so I'm not sure what's with the desperate hyperbole.

That's what your claim amounts to. You're considering ALL income as public money by virtue of demanding insight into tax returns.

adjl posted...

I like how you switched tax (>.>) so quickly to "the government knows best and what they say goes verbatim" from "we shouldn't trust the government with so much of our money." It's no secret that the tax code is a convoluted mess, full of loopholes that get exploited for reasons far beyond their original intent. The basic intent of the tax code is to tax people based on what they can comfortably afford to contribute to the running of the country. Ergo, people paying less than what they can comfortably afford are not paying their fair share. That's just how the tax code is supposed to work.

No, my argument is that it's the position of the government -- not some armchair socialist -- to determine what is or isn't a fair share. I can say that I feel taxes should be less and you could say that you feel taxes should be more, but ultimately the government sets up a system to collect what it feels is a fair share.

As for the "intent" of the tax code, keep in mind that our founding fathers fought a war over far lower taxes. If Washington, Madison, etc, were alive today to witness modern taxes, heads would be mounted on stumps. Keep in mind that, in its original form, roughly 95% of the federal government was funded by TARIFFS. Now Americans are fucked once for not having tariffs to protect them, then again by having to pay the money to make up what was lost on tariffs.

adjl posted...

Sure there's a need argument involved. Somebody who makes $60,000 a year and is also putting two kids through college can't comfortably afford the same amount of taxes that somebody who's making $60,000 a year without children can. They don't have to be the neediest to have needs. What an absurd notion.

Something which our current system addresses via deductions. You know, the very things you want to kill.

adjl posted...

That would be implied by "everyone's tax returns," yes. "Everyone" doesn't mean "rich people," as much as the focus here is on preventing legal tax evasion.

No, it wouldn't. While some benefits are taxable, others are not -- and that's assuming that they don't lie on their taxes! You'd need a separate, more comprehensive system to see ALL of the benefits which people claim.

adjl posted...

It's cheating the intent behind the system. It's definitely exploiting its shortcomings, which would generally be considered cheating if it were, say, a video game.

Taking an exemption that was placed for people to take is exploiting the system? Right....
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Zeus posted...

Taking an exemption that was placed for people to take is exploiting the system? Right....

Making an exemption and making it opt in instead of giving people what they are owed is pretty sneaky, it tries to stop people getting what they are owed by not being clear.

Making an exemption specifically for a small group you and your friends are part of is also exploitative.
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Zeus posted...

Taking an exemption that was placed for people to take is exploiting the system? Right....

Making an exemption and making it opt in instead of giving people what they are owed is pretty sneaky, it tries to stop people getting what they are owed by not being clear.

Making an exemption specifically for a small group you and your friends are part of is also exploitative.

It sounds like you have no idea how the system works tbh