Board 8 > If a piece of media has a major message/theme you don't agree with

(+) Yeah! (+)

how does that affect your enjoyment of the media?

ex. Say there was a movie that was essentially about how video games are bad for youth (or glorifying war, or glorifying veganism, or whatever message you couldn't get behind), but the movie was really well made (great acting, great cinematography, great writing, etc.)

Could you recognize it as a great movie? Could you still enjoy it?

It's a dilemma that came up a lot when American Sniper was released, and similarly comes up a lot when LGBT movies are released
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I have moral issues with Jean Grey, so every time an X-Men film comes out, it definitely has an effect my enjoyment of the film if she appears.

Seriously though, it really depends on how much I care about the issue. I'm against recreational drug use, but it never once bothers me in any show or film, for example.
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Johnbobb posted...

how does that affect your enjoyment of the media?

It doesn't affect this in the slightest for me.

Especially for music.
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Music I don't care what the message is

Stories bug me the hell out though.
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My second favorite band of all time is Type O Negative. The lead singer became born again Christian before their final album, and one of the songs is an anti-abortion track that I think sounds really good but I can't stand to listen to it. I gave it a shot under the idea that, we all have different view points and that's OK. But I just don't relate to the song so I don't like it.

Movies are a bit different because I don't feel like I need to relate to them in order to enjoy them, and usually I can deal with actors/actresses/directors that I don't like/agree with.
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Depends on the specific theme, and how it's presented. Most of the time I just don't relate to whoever it wants me to relate to, but I've dropped shows over that kinda thing before for stuff like that.
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I can't really think of any good examples of this other than Salo, which was intended to be and thoroughly succeeded in being entirely unpleasant to watch and I abandoned ship way before it was done.

Then there's the new Ghostbusters remake which was a crap attempt at shoehorning a political agenda I agree with (more female rolemodels and representation) into an established franchise and then trying to bash you over the head with it throughout making it at worst a massive shit show and at best decidedly average.

Then there's Wolf of Wallstreet which is basically about a corrupt but charismatic asshole whom I'd want nothing to do with in the real world, but thoroughly enjoyed as a film.

So I really don't know lol.
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MenuWars posted...

Then there's the new Ghostbusters remake which was a crap attempt at shoehorning a political agenda I agree with (more female rolemodels and representation) into an established franchise and then trying to bash you over the head with it throughout making it at worst a massive shit show and at best decidedly average.

I mean, yes, but that's not really why it sucked, though it certainly contributed.
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Ghostbusters mainly sucked because there was no script.
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Tom Bombadil posted...

Depends on the specific theme, and how it's presented.

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Yeah, "depends." If it's something I don't like but don't have a passion about, I let it go. My goal is to become a major corporate executive, but I rock out to Rise Against.

If it's something that disgusts me though? It's out.

Not quite the same thing, but I can't stand seeing kids get seriously hurt or beaten. Especially at the hands of an authority figure. The Boy in the Striped Pajamas is a solid movie, but I couldn't get through it.
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i have a high tolerance for stuff i disagree with in media.

i disagree with much of the stuff in frank zappa's lyrics - the best example being his blatant bashing/making fun of gay people and gay culture - but he's still my favorite music artist ever.
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i hate it whenever any character in any media looks like they're getting up on a soap box and channeling the views of the writer/creator- regardless of what that view is

so with that at one extreme, i also recognize it's impossible to remove all learned experiences from your creations

as long as it's not hitting me over the head, and i don't feel like the media forces me to agree with them, it's okay

but i mean yeah 24's glorification of torture does dissuade me from watching a bit
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virtually always has an impact

doesn't necessarily completely invalidate somethings value for me, but it hurts a lot especially depending on how important that viewpoint is to me.

Not even slightly.

Performed in plenty of art I didn't necessarily agree with so my threshold is really high. I can never understand people who are like "So and so said THIS now I can't read them/listen to them/watch them."
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Obviously depends

A documentary about how video games are bad is never gonna be enjoyable no matter how well it's shot
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I can't think of many examples where this affected me. Highly faith-based or religious fiction, for example, moves me just as much as anything. On the other hand, there was a recent anime that heavily focused on how cool the main character was when he was smoking. That was definitely a turnoff for me.
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banananor posted...

i hate it whenever any character in any media looks like they're getting up on a soap box and channeling the views of the writer/creator- regardless of what that view is

so with that at one extreme, i also recognize it's impossible to remove all learned experiences from your creations

as long as it's not hitting me over the head, and i don't feel like the media forces me to agree with them, it's okay

This is basically how I feel. I can listen to metaphors and political opinions all the time, but the second they get preachy about it, I'm done.

The way it's done best is if it gives you a reason to agree with both ends in at least one respect. You don't have to agree with both sides, but you need to be able to see the other side objectively viewed and characters on that side to have a proper motivation.
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This is kind of the thing with the original Birth of a Nation.

Sickening subject matter but important advances in the art make it seminal
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It obviously depends.

I greatly enjoy The Incredibles despite somewhat being based off of Ayn Rand's philosophies. That being said, it did at least manage to avoid the more misanthropic philosophies, leaving just the ones that are questionable at worst.

I'm trying to think of a negative example but the only thing coming to mind is the already mentioned American Sniper. Sorry, if I think of something I'll come back.

I will say though that I get really tired of movies that try to deliver a good message but flub it in execution. Not even anvilicious, just "didn't understand the problem or the solution and completely missed the mark." Like, 90% of anti-bullying stuff that doesn't really understand why people bully and how to stop them.
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Unless it's shoehorned in to a blatantly preachy degree, I don't really care.
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There's something to learn from every point of view imo.

I'm not exactly anti-abortion but a story that wants to hold up the sanctity of life? That's fine with me.
I'm pro-capitalism for the most part, but if a story wants to highlight the negative aspects, or even offer an idealized communist take on the situation that's compelling to me too.
I'm defintely anti-religion, but if a story wants to insinuate spirituality or "something beyond" is real as an obvious nod to Christianity, that's still cool. Most religions have some good messages in them anyway.

Point is if you're sympathic enough to other points of view this is almost never a problem, unless the story really sucks for other reasons anyway.
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I like to be able to root for the protagonist. That doesn't mean they have to be "good" or "nice"; I like a lot of antiheroes and outright villains. But if it gets to the point where I don't even want the character to win, then I'm going to enjoy the work a lot less. And even if it doesn't get to that point, it can be frustrating to see a character I want to like constantly making "wrong" decisions.

No-kill policies are a good example of this. If you have an enemy at your mercy, he's tried to kill you/your loved ones/other innocents in the past, and you're certain he will do it again if released, yet you release him anyway out of some misguided sense of principle, that's irritating. I wouldn't stop reading solely because of something like that, but it is a turnoff.
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I think it mostly depends on how heavy handed the message is more than the message itself.
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All Scott Weiland wrote about was how much he loved his heroin and then how much he was sorry for his heroin use. I don't care much for heroin or apologies but I still love Stone Temple Pilots.
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Jakyl25 posted...

This is kind of the thing with the original Birth of a Nation.

Sickening subject matter but important advances in the art make it seminal

the original birth of a nation isn't even good though imo. i put it in the same category as la voyage dans la lune and avatar. they're important movies, but they're not particularly good.
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If it's something negative it is more likely to bother me.

Like "Video Games are awful" would bother me while "Going outside is good" wouldn't
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It depends on the message mostly. I like the song "Meat is Murder" even though you could consider it 'whiny' and I'm not a vegetarian myself. If a song/movie was really racist though or something like that, just truly offensive and mean, I'd probably feel awkward and wrong watching it.
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As long as the movie is well written/acted It doesn't. However if the message is over preachy and unnecessary and the story or acting is sacrificed as a result of that
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Not that much in music, very greatly in movies/TV/even some games

I'm not going to enjoy a movie if I think it's imparting a message that I think is wrong or painting something I disagree with in a positive light, that's crazy to me

Writers have a very important duty to think about what their story is saying, not just on a surface level but also the underlying, subtle themes and connections, and in movies/TV this also falls on the directors, editors, composers, etc, and if the message is mixed or off-target then that's going to naturally be a problem for me, I don't see how it could not be

I think someone once said Skyfall was shit because it was "anti-Assange" and that annoyed me because...like, it's ok to be anti-Assange (and this was in 2012, so it was before a lot of the more recent Wikileaks stuff). That's a complicated issue. Leaks, privacy, etc, that's a debate. A serious and complex one. You shouldn't be considered a monster for being anti-Assange, and a movie making an anti-Assange statement doesn't mean the movie is "wrong" or whatever. But whoever this was went off on Skyfall over it and I found that kind of annoying. (Although it's also because I love Skyfall)

So I suppose that's an example of me leaning towards this not bothering me, but I guess I'd need more examples to say for sure.
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yeah, i agree that this is a bigger problem in movies/TV than music.

even in movies/TV it's not that big a deal to me, though. i appreciate riefenstahl's talented directing in triumph of the will, even though it's a nazi propaganda movie.
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XIII_rocks posted...

I think someone once said Skyfall was shit because it was "anti-Assange" and that annoyed me because...like, it's ok to be anti-Assange (and this was in 2012, so it was before a lot of the more recent Wikileaks stuff). That's a complicated issue. Leaks, privacy, etc, that's a debate. A serious and complex one. You shouldn't be considered a monster for being anti-Assange, and a movie making an anti-Assange statement doesn't mean the movie is "wrong" or whatever. But whoever this was went off on Skyfall over it and I found that kind of annoying. (Although it's also because I love Skyfall)

So I suppose that's an example of me leaning towards this not bothering me, but I guess I'd need more examples to say for sure.

I'm pretty sure the last time someone leaked information that got people killed, they were put in jail for a long time and experienced a lot of horrors in there for their stay.

But when it's Assange doing it to expose people in foreign countries that get them killed by the governments, people have to protect him because "muh fruhdum of spuch"
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James Bond is also a series about how government secretly murdering people always saves the world and regular citizens are too dumb to understand that. I guess he didn't have a problem with that?
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I complain on twitter with appropriate hashtags
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Sometimes it's tricky. There have been songs that sound great but i find the content incredibly offensive, and eventually one outweighs the other. But very few songs offend me like that so it rarely comes up.

It's easy for me to forget/ignore the views of creators as long as those views are not oppressive in the medium. Like, knowing that I dislike Tim Allen doesn't affect my enjoyment of Toy Story.
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I dislike Benedict Cumberbatch but I still plan to get around to watching Doctor Strange

And I also love Smaug from The Hobbit (though at the same time I think anyone with a posh accent could've easily done the job just as good)

Actors and Characters are different things, after all.
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