Poll of the Day > Anime, Manga, VN, JRPG, Related Things Discussion Topic LXXVII

(+) Yeah! (+)

I should mention my opinion on the ending seems to be relatively unique (same as with madoka) so I'm kind of doubtful you will feel the same way. It's also been a long time since I watched it so it's not that clear in my head. My main problems were these 3, hopefully I'm remembering them right.

1: In main guys grief he reverts back to how he was in episode one and goes on a shonen battle spree fighting his way up to the shogun. The fact that he makes it means he ALREADY could have made it up there in episode 1 and the entire sword hunt was a colossal waste of time and main girls life

2: This one is more frustrating. The 2 main girls goals were not in conflict and they had no reason not to just work together. I know that sometimes people just don't work well together but it would have served both of their interests and makes the death feel that much more meaningless when it could have been effortlessly avoided.

3: Easily the biggest oversight IMO is the fact that rival girls ninja SNEAKS INTO THE SHOGUNS ROOM. Rival girl had a way to kill the shogun right from the start as well and you can't even pretend like the journey somehow better prepared him to sneak up there. Seriously the shugon's security must be some kind of joke but either girl could have just waltzed right in and killed his ass in episode one.

My rule of tragedy in anime is that the sadder an event is, the more airtight the justification needs to be. When the justification is flimsy or downright nonexistent its very frustrating. It feels like katanagatari follows an obnoxious trend in anime of that time by focusing exclusively on the thematic conclusion and abandoning the surface level logic actually supporting the events. It makes happy endings feel unearned and sad endings feel like we were robbed.

I also separately feel like it is a very bad idea to make a show about a journey and then make it so that the journey was actually a waste of time right from the start. This is different than the journey resulting in failure. If they had fought their way up to the shogun but gotten taken out, that would have been a failed journey but would still be able to be made in a satisfying way. Even if they managed to patch the plot holes surrounding the ending, the fact that the entire journey we watched actually had no reason to happen in the first place and never even had a chance to accomplish anything is immensely unsatisfying for me. I feel the same way but 10000000 times more so about yami to boushi.
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Anyone's seen Nisekoi? Cute stuff
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WesternMedia posted...

Anyone's seen Nisekoi? Cute stuff

And I was just talking about shaft productions. I like demo's old mini review where he says the series is half nisekoi manga and half SHAFT SHAFT SHAFT! and I mostly agree.

Everyone always whines about how it has no progression but honestly the random antics are more interesting than the romance plot IMO. I'd watch a 3rd season if it got one.

I also remember it had one of the fiercest best girl wars with people absolutely despising whichever girl they didn't support which just seems odd to me. I like em both.
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Knocked out Natsume Go, time for Roku.

Would happily take a third season of Nisekoi.
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Been reading One Piece. 330 chapters in. Great stuff.
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i am now one persona away from completing the compendium.

now i need to figure out how to get all the books, i know there's missable ones, and figure out how to get a home run at the batting cages.

also, fishing. didn't even fuckin' know that was a thing you could do. i guess video games, too.

so it looks like i'm gonna need to follow a guide. lucky me.
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OlorinTheOtaku posted...

I find that most people either love or hate MH, I haven't seen someone on a middle ground about it.

well, I'm in the middle ground. of course, I never played it.
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YoukaiSlayer posted...

WesternMedia posted...

Anyone's seen Nisekoi? Cute stuff

And I was just talking about shaft productions. I like demo's old mini review where he says the series is half nisekoi manga and half SHAFT SHAFT SHAFT! and I mostly agree.

Everyone always whines about how it has no progression but honestly the random antics are more interesting than the romance plot IMO. I'd watch a 3rd season if it got one.

I also remember it had one of the fiercest best girl wars with people absolutely despising whichever girl they didn't support which just seems odd to me. I like em both.

Is that so? I thought Nisekoi has some of the most progression I've seen from a Harem/Slice of Life. They actually reveal stuff for each other rather than keep the same stuff bottled up inside from the beginning to the end. They don't reveal their true feelings yet, but they do reveal stuff like the key to each other finally rather than bring their secret to the grave like so many other SOLs.
And I know what you're talking about lol. I'm on episode 12 and I AM just egging him to get with Onodera already since I'm completely for her, and don't care much for the blonde girl. I do kind of like tsumungi too though
Also can't believe it took more than half the season for another major player to come in.
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I think I actually like chitoge (blonde girl) more but it just seems odd to me that people would utterly loathe and wish death on onedera considering how nice she is even if they don't want him to end up with her.
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Bakemonogatari down. I feel like I would just be constantly stressing hanekawa out on purpose for them ears. Not sure when I want to thread nekomonogatari in. Seems like right after tsubasa cat would make sense. Eh, I'll just go by release order.
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So I survived through the first 20-ish episodes of To love-ru and I just didn't enjoy it, I don't think I was really in the right "frame" of mind to watch it because I didn't find it particularity interesting and the humour was really quite dull so I decided to stop watching it

So I moved on and saw the first two Kizumonogatari movies and am currently halfway through the third and well.. all I can say is that I'm massively enjoying watching it, fantastic animation, great dialogue, interesting scene selections and impressive action all come together to remind me why I enjoy the series so much. I'm very much looking forward to watching the rest of this third movie too
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To Love-Ru is best enjoyed with your brain turned off.

I got my Nadia and Yosuga no Sora today. Sora is divided into four discs with different story arcs:

Kazuha (Ep 1-4)
Akira (Ep 1, 2, 5-6)
Nao (Ep 1, 7, 9)
Sora (Ep 1, 7, 10-12)

Is that viewing order actually suggested, or should I just watch them in normal order?
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IMO just watch in release order. It's not a hard series to follow.
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Gah I love all the little details packed into monogatari. Those 3 frame text dumps with mostly extraneous information are so fun sometimes. The one I just paused to read mentioned araragi carried his sisters home and even though he thought they wouldn't run off again, he wrote "any guy will do" in sharpie on the older sister's face and "disregard bras: acquire liberation" on the younger's face. Completely pointless information but funny nonetheless. It's great to know I still have like 50 episodes of this series left.
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keyblader1985 posted...

Is that viewing order actually suggested, or should I just watch them in normal order?

Release order, IMO, but the series can be a little annoying to watch because each episode is followed by a four-minute "chibi" mini-episode filler that just keeps you from getting to the next real episode.
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I have finally reached it! The pinnacle of anime. What it has been building to over all these years of experimentation and passion in the pursuit of artistic expression. THE TOOTHBRUSH SCENE!

It was way longer and more erotic than I remember. Even the fanservice in monogatari is well directed and well... not tasteful exactly, but I guess artistic.


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Been enjoying season 6 of Natsume Yuujinchou. It's a slow, so I could see people finding it boring, but it's a nice watch.
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In tsukimonogatari, theres a ecchi related joke that goes over nearly everyone's heads. in the bathtub scene where Tsukuhi and Araragi bathe together. She wants to tell Araragi a one liner joke. She poses sexually with soap suds barely covering the important parts and calls the pose, metropolitan ordinance. Araragi gets upset that she does that, splashes water on her, which washes away the suds (not depicted). Metropolitan Ordinance is a shorten name of a law/comittee that sees to censor obscene materials from impressionable youth. When the show was airing, the law was updated, passing responsibility to publishers to enforce it. So the crux of the joke was a jab/provocation/attack on that law.
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YoukaiSlayer posted...

Bakemonogatari down. I feel like I would just be constantly stressing hanekawa out on purpose for them ears. Not sure when I want to thread nekomonogatari in. Seems like right after tsubasa cat would make sense. Eh, I'll just go by release order.

always release order.

Bake -> Nise -> Neko:Kuro -> S2 -> Hana-> Tsuki -> Owari

Then Kizu around Tsuki/Owari-ish.
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YoukaiSlayer posted...

I think I actually like chitoge (blonde girl) more but it just seems odd to me that people would utterly loathe and wish death on onedera considering how nice she is even if they don't want him to end up with her.

Yeah, on episode 15 and I can definitely understand how people are feeling lol. With Tachibana's introduction I am absolutely loathing Chitoge. I mean, the whole thing with Chitoge was a farce anyway, why continue pretending it to go on, when Tachibana who is so much more knowledgeable of their past and who is much more in love with him get her shot? This whole I'm in love with another girl thing is so unfair, since when Chitoge was forced into him, they didn't know each other either and he liked Onodera but now that Tachibana is in the same situation suddenly he can't do that? Especially since Chitoge is not any nicer to him than she was in episode 4. She just grew more horny towards him. Why can't she suck it up like Tsumungi (who I prefer over Chitoge too) lol
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Damn, Gyo is getting really freaky! I'm at issue 13 & wow, I did not see this coming... I gotta know how it ends though.
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YoukaiSlayer posted...

THE TOOTHBRUSH SCENE!

Epic Araragi face will always be epic.

And people can say what they want about Shaft. I'd like to see any other studio even attempt something like the Toothbrush Scene.

....

Actually, it'd be kind of funny to see Deen try it, but I can't knock Deen too hard. They might have failed at Log Horizon Season 2 (and spectacularly at Fate / Stay Night), but they also did Sakura Trick. They can animate stuff well when they want to.
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zoro-1992 posted...

So I survived through the first 20-ish episodes of To love-ru and I just didn't enjoy it, I don't think I was really in the right "frame" of mind to watch it because I didn't find it particularity interesting and the humour was really quite dull so I decided to stop watching it

keyblader1985 posted...

To Love-Ru is best enjoyed with your brain turned off.

I love To Love Ru! But the manga is waaay better. I love the manga, but for me, the anime was mostly just alright.

It does have to good anime moments in Darkness and Darkness 2nd though.
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I_Abibde posted...

but they also did Sakura Trick.

This causes internal conflict in me. Sakura trick is like the holy text (well holy video) for yuri but Deen is otherwise pretty crap. I wonder if different staff worked on sakura trick cause even the art style is somewhat unique.

Damn, I can never find the fuck heterogravity gif from demo's sakura trick video and this time I find it in a tweet where I can't find any source. Unfortunate.
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Aha! I knew something was fishy. Ishikura Kenichi worked as the director, episode director, storyboard, and series composition for sakura trick. Guess what else they worked on? Maria Holic by shaft and hidemari sketch also by shaft. Looking through their entire history they worked with several studios projects including shaft and mad house. Morikawa Yuuki is listed as a key frame animator and they TOO worked on a bunch of shaft productions including madoka and arakawa under the bridge. And then GUESS WHO does the backgrounds for sakura trick? Matsumoto Katsuki who has done the background primarily for 2 other series. One is the shaft hidemari sketch and the second is none other than MONOGATARI SERIES.

So while sakura trick is technically a studio deen work it seems to have been produced by freelancers who have all done lots of work with shaft to the point that it might as well be a shaft production.

Granted this all just patchworking things together from the MAL staff page which could be incomplete but I found it pretty interesting nonetheless and explains why the show had a shaft like quality to its backgrounds.
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Finished nise and nekomonogatari:kuro. I'm not surprised to finally hear araragi say it. "Oddities don't exist". The idea that everything we see in the show is just a convenient dramatization of the lives of some normal high school students coping with real problems as opposed to anything supernatural. Some tall tale being made up to explain people acting out and getting suicidal or otherwise having significant but real problems.

Of course, I expect this to only be a momentary detour, it'll just be another lens by which to view the events through. The lack of permanent damage to structures and the clearly inaccurate portrayal of colors and the clearly imagination focused background support the idea that we are witnessing unreliable events that likely aren't happening in the way in which we are being shown. Such as when araragi is on the phone with hanekawa early on and suddenly she is in the middle of the street surrounded by cars. In reality we can assume this is the image that flickered through araragi's mind when a few cars simply moved past her since he has to imagine her because they are talking over the phone. You could also look at moments where there are numerous identical background objects like bikes or cars as moments where the character simply remembered "there were lots of bikes" and the visuals took it to the extreme but with no detail because he didn't remember exactly what type of bike each one was or exactly which spots had bikes.

However I get the feeling that the show doesn't particularly care whether the events are real or not. When presented with the real thing and an indistinguishable fake, which is more valuable? Even the show itself, while explaining the concept that the show might be fake, posits that it doesn't actually matter if its fake or not.

It's frankly astounding to me that this show is actually successful due to just how much subtlety and how little action there is. It's baffling and runs counter to almost every idea of lowest common denominator entertainment. You could argue this series is one of the most arty series out there even more so than something like lain or boogiepop, both series with some similarities and cult appeal but neither of which received the massive success monogatari did.

Ironically this show about oddities is itself an oddity. It should for all intents and purposes be too clever for its own good but somehow its not. It lacks almost all sense of broad appeal and even has elements that would turn many away like araragi's assaults on hachikuji or his sisters. It's extremely difficult to follow and surrounds the viewer with a sense that we aren't ever seeing the full picture. It applies horror filming techniques to a meta comedy and infuses more meaning into each of its actions than the things it parodies. All things that should point to the show being a commercial failure, and yet, paradoxically, it was insanely commercially successful. Just like when watching the show, it's success leaves me with a sense than I'm not seeing the full picture and that somehow things must work differently than everything else would lead me to believe.

Yes I'm drunk and yes I could probably write a dozen pages on just the 30 episodes I've seen so far. I hope the rest keeps up the quality.
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YoukaiSlayer posted...

Yes I'm drunk and yes I could probably write a dozen pages on just the 30 episodes I've seen so far. I hope the rest keeps up the quality.

If you're having a good time, that's the important thing. Take your time and savor that franchise, IMO.

And I actually didn't know those things about Sakura Trick. Interesting. Wonder if the same background folks worked on Meganebu (which is a really stupid show, but it's actually visually neat in spots)?
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I swear, I so rarely get to watch/read new stuff, because I so enjoy re-viewing old favorites. I started rereading Old Boy again; it's so damn good and with great art.

I do think the villain's motive was better in the movie though, but I feel the story is better suited for the manga than just a movie. The man was mysteriously imprisoned for ten years; his revenge should be a marathon, not a sprint. It's much more properly paced in an ongoing series.
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keyblader1985 posted...

I swear, I so rarely get to watch/read new stuff, because I so enjoy re-viewing old favorites. I started rereading Old Boy again; it's so damn good and with great art.

I do think the villain's motive was better in the movie though, but I feel the story is better suited for the manga than just a movie. The man was mysteriously imprisoned for ten years; his revenge should be a marathon, not a sprint. It's much more properly paced in an ongoing series.

I'm basically the opposite. I rarely rewatch stuff because there's still plenty of stuff I haven't seen.

Currently watchg, Shuumatsu Nani Shitemasu ka? Isogashii desu ka? Sukutte Moratte Ii desu ka?.
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I'm like neither of those. I rarely rewatch things because I remember it to well but I'm also usually out of things to watch.
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Hmm, I don't do a lot of rewatching, and I usually go years between revisits (see: Evangelion), so new stuff is often the focus. I mean, I'm paying for Crunchyroll and the like, so I'm gonna use it. But rewatches are special, since I get something different out of it due to being older and having so much time pass.
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keyblader1985 posted...

I swear, I so rarely get to watch/read new stuff, because I so enjoy re-viewing old favorites.

I also rewatch things more than I watch something new. I mean, most of the series I've watched I've watch through the entire series more than 5 times. When I would watch episodes as they came out weekly (Naruto) I would watch each episode multiple times before the next episode came out next week.
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I would probably be the same way if I were paying any service, since I wouldn't want to be wasting money. So I guess that's a factor.
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In my case its, watch 1 new anime episode every day & read roughly 6 - 20 new manga issues every week. Atleast that's the average, sometimes more, sometimes less. I hardly every re-watch/read things because I can just as easily watch/read something new that I haven't seen instead.
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keyblader1985 posted...

I would probably be the same way if I were paying any service, since I wouldn't want to be wasting money. So I guess that's a factor.

I'd definitely watch more new anime if I were paying for something like that. But I'd still re watch things cause sometimes I want to watch something I've already seen before.
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I rewatch anime movies a lot more than series. However every now and then I catch myself in the mood to rewatch Gurren Lagann. Or FMA:B if I'm watching it with a friend to get them started.
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I like that every monogatari arc has its own OP. Nadeko's might be my favorite but really most of them are pretty good. it also might just be that I'm on Nadeko's second arc. I kind of can't wait to get to kizu or whichever one has araragi's past in it. I think I've already pinned down his issue mostly but confirmation and expanding on it will be nice. I suppose not entirely original to have a main character with that kind of issue at their core but it should still be fun to explore. Assuming I'm even on the right track which I easily might not be.

Considering we know he had no friends for a long time and is almost always looking to die for someone else. It seems like he has extremely little self worth and is looking to derive value from sacrificing himself. You could even say he is suicidal if you try to interpret things as they actually happen, without oddities. It seems likely that spending spring break alone without friends so late into highschool probably drove him to near suicide until hanekawa reached out to him. He's looking to spend that life she saved doing something worthwhile and since he feels worthless feels like it could only come from self sacrifice. At least thats my guess but it should become apparent later. It would also somewhat explain why he is so quick to forgive kanbaru for assaulting him.

Still not really sure what I consider shinobu to represent. Probably something to do with the heart under blade part of her name.
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Man, being caught up with a manga sucks ass. You get a chapter once a week, which you finish in 4-6 minutes. The pacing feels atrocious. At least with airing anime, you get 21 minutes of content a week.
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^ That's why I read old manga eating4fun
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eating4fun posted...

Man, being caught up with a manga sucks ass. You get a chapter once a week, which you finish in 4-6 minutes. The pacing feels atrocious. At least with airing anime, you get 21 minutes of content a week.

the mangas I read are 1 a month
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Even 21 minutes a week is nothing. You can't really get invested into the atmosphere of an anime without like an hour straight and if you can't fully invest whats the point? I don't know how you people manage to enjoy watching weekly. I suppose discussion without the benefit of knowing what happens would be fun though.

The ending of the second nadeko arc was so unsatisfying I had to look up to make sure they got back to that. I think it's the first episode I can say I didn't enjoy and having that lingering over me waiting for hitagi end is going to be a serious drag on the episodes in between.
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YoukaiSlayer posted...

Even 21 minutes a week is nothing. You can't really get invested into the atmosphere of an anime without like an hour straight and if you can't fully invest whats the point? I don't know how you people manage to enjoy watching weekly. I suppose discussion without the benefit of knowing what happens would be fun though.

The ending of the second nadeko arc was so unsatisfying I had to look up to make sure they got back to that. I think it's the first episode I can say I didn't enjoy and having that lingering over me waiting for hitagi end is going to be a serious drag on the episodes in between.

The fun of weekly anime is discussion, and the mulling over. It's also the philosophy of temperance. If you want to enjoy premium liquor, you drink it over a period of time instead of consuming it all at once. An episode is an episode, whole and complete. Just because it's part of a bigger picture, doesn't mean it lacks individual value.

When I "binge" a series, my habit is 3 or 4 episodes a day so I can have more days of experiencing a series. Kara no Kyoukai was a real treat watching a movie a day. The only show I ever binged was the first season of Game of Thrones when it was new, and that was something. Well, to each and their own.



Another note, just wanna say a lot of people have monogatari second season as their favorite part of the series.
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eating4fun posted...

The fun of weekly anime is discussion, and the mulling over. It's also the philosophy of temperance. If you want to enjoy premium liquor, you drink it over a period of time instead of consuming it all at once. An episode is an episode, whole and complete. Just because it's part of a bigger picture, doesn't mean it lacks individual value.

The alcohol I choose to drink is almost exclusively beer (although mostly cause its easier to prepare and consume and I'm lazy and poor).

Each episode doesn't lack value on its own but I would also say that an episode is more than the sum of its parts. The tension of the previous episode enhances the current one.

More than that though, it probably has to do with what I like about anime in general. I'm probably more focused on escapism than most viewers and really want to be drawn into the atmosphere of a world. I don't want to be me sitting in my chair watching an anime, I just want to the anime to be all that exists. I want the unique atmosphere that each anime presents to be the atmosphere I feel instead of the real atmosphere of my mostly empty dimly-lit room in painfully boring reality.

It takes time to reach that level of immersion in the atmosphere of an anime and taking a long break makes you return to the atmosphere and feeling of the real world. Theres no way that the bizarre and eerie feeling of the monogatari series can follow you around for an entire week even if you were able to get into it by watching just one particularly effective episode.

I suppose I'm not one for moderation in general. Id rather have the highest high point than a higher average height. This is probably why the ending is so important to me for shows and hearing one has a bad ending puts me off of it entirely. I'm chasing the highest point of the show, which is naturally its ending as the rest of the show has built up to it for the ultimate pay off, so if its weak, why did I even bother watching to begin with?

Of course I shouldn't say 21 minutes is too long to feel anything. I love shelter and it's made me cry a few times despite being 6 minutes long, but I feel like the average anime doesn't pack its emotions that tightly together.
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YoukaiSlayer posted...

More than that though, it probably has to do with what I like about anime in general. I'm probably more focused on escapism than most viewers and really want to be drawn into the atmosphere of a world. I don't want to be me sitting in my chair watching an anime, I just want to the anime to be all that exists. I want the unique atmosphere that each anime presents to be the atmosphere I feel instead of the real atmosphere of my mostly empty dimly-lit room in painfully boring reality.

It takes time to reach that level of immersion in the atmosphere of an anime and taking a long break makes you return to the atmosphere and feeling of the real world. Theres no way that the bizarre and eerie feeling of the monogatari series can follow you around for an entire week even if you were able to get into it by watching just one particularly effective episode.

I suppose I'm not one for moderation in general. Id rather have the highest high point than a higher average height. This is probably why the ending is so important to me for shows and hearing one has a bad ending puts me off of it entirely. I'm chasing the highest point of the show, which is naturally its ending as the rest of the show has built up to it for the ultimate pay off, so if its weak, why did I even bother watching to begin with?

Ah, thanks for sharing your philosophy and proclivities. I appreciate seeing the other viewpoints because I can't contemplate it on my own.
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It took a few hours but now I'm really starting to get into Xenoblade X.

The barrier of entry of this game is ridiculous though. You literally have to research numerous hidden mechanics and gameplay essentials that the game just does NOT explain to you.

Still, after that, I'm having fun. I can't wait until I finally get my robot. I'm gonna color it in EVA colors for sure.
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Yeah, my perspective is kinda painfully uncommon. I don't feel like I've run into anyone else that feels that way and most people don't seem to even really care about the atmosphere a show creates. O well. I guess I don't really require anyone to share my viewpoint. Does make looking for anime I like a bit harder though.
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T0ffee posted...

It took a few hours but now I'm really starting to get into Xenoblade X.

So you're....really feelin it!?
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Okay so I finished the Kizumonotagari movies and well... they were rather good, the production quality, dialogue, animation and distinct "Monotagari feel" (a term I just made up <_<) were all present and correct, I finished the Nekomonotagari white arc yesterday and am on the "main" Bakamonogatari arc now. Watching it in (mostly) timeline order is really interesting after viewing it in release order since it gives me chance to see how well it matches up when viewed chronologically and the answer so far is "really well", one thing I've always loved about the direction of the series as a whole is it's non-focus on unimportant characters- such as the school always being empty, there's no cliche "best friend who is utterly pointless to both the MC and the story" to be found here, that idea combined with the sharp dialogue being spat out like it's going out of fashion and you have a series that pulls you in if you're looking for something quite different than the norm.
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The only possible issue with chronological order is the various character hints they place in the arcs. Watching neko:black early on would lead you to looking at bake and nise more as an inspection of the characters problems rather than a tale of the supernatural. A lot of hanekawa's dialogue would be less impactful as well if we already knew the things we learn in those arcs. I mean, you can figure them out really early on in release order but it makes you feel clever when you do and you would lose that feeling of subtlety as her various looks and dialogue convey the truth about the lie she is telling.
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Ok, I'm really starting to despise chitoge lmao. She's a spoiled rude self centered brat. Onodera, Tachibana (who is basically just Onodera with a spine) and even Tsumugi are way better than her
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