Poll of the Day > Anime, Manga, VN, JRPG, Related Things Discussion Topic LXXVII

(+) Yeah! (+)

JOExHIGASHI posted...

YoukaiSlayer posted...

Just finished shirobako and damn what a good show.

I saw 2 episodes of it and got tired of all the information they were throwing at me about how an anime is made and all the job titles and names of people.

Is it like that the whole time?

I actually almost dropped it at the first episode. IMO it doesn't really hook you until episode 6 but from there it only gets better and by the end its an amazing show. The main thing is that in the beginning they just have so much to introduce. There are about 5-6 import key frame animators, 2 minor writers, the scenario writer, the director, the production team members, the cg guy, the main 5 girls (most of which don't really get involved until the second arc), and the sound guys. The sound guys are mostly unimportant so long as you remember they are sound guys, same with the writers that aren't the director or scenario writer. All the key frame people matter and come up several times, the production team is obviously a large focus.

From what I read, the show had about a 7 rating on MAL up to episode 6. It ended with an 8.47. The thing is, the show doesn't really get better, its more that it's not good until you become attached to the characters, which just takes a little while because they don't spend too much time per episode on any one character, but once you do its amazing.
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To be fair you could just say helly has specific tastes and expectations to consider games to be good.
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So I have finally reached 500 on my "completed" MAL list, in regards to that I thought I'd go back to an older series and decided on To love-ru, the main reason for this is because while I remember watching the first series of it I never got around to watching the rest of it, now that there's a lot more of it out I figured I'd give it a try, so far I'm halfway through the first series and it's okay, nothing special but okay

OlorinTheOtaku posted...

Play Tekken 6

Not 7? 6 is hella outdated now so hardly anyone plays it anymore, 7 has a lot of players right now and the netcode is decent enough, after putting *checks* over 200 hours in it I'd say it's a pretty good game too
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Thinking about finally watching all of Hikaru No Go, I have every episode on a hardrive. So it would be easy enough to watch.
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JOExHIGASHI posted...

YoukaiSlayer posted...

Just finished shirobako and damn what a good show.

I saw 2 episodes of it and got tired of all the information they were throwing at me about how an anime is made and all the job titles and names of people.

Is it like that the whole time?

No. The first few/several Shirobako episodes feel like you're actually a new guy in an office; you're going to have a hard time until experience naturally holds you over.
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-0melette- posted...

To be fair you could just say helly has specific tastes and expectations to consider games to be good.

You could but that would be diverting from the fact that he has traditionally terrible opinions to an almost comical degree which would be easier to not point out if he wasn't so aggressive about them.
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@zoro-1992 Oh yeah, definitely play Tekken 7 if you can, its just that I only have Tekken 6 (On PSP) that's why I specifically said 6. Im sure 7 is better though. I was actually watching Pewdiepie play 7 & it looks almost identical to 6 though.

@helIy LOL, if you think those games are stupid then I guess you probably do have a reversed taste... I'm curious, could you tell me 5 or so games you actually do like? Just so I can get idea about your "Unique taste".
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Owarimonogatari S2 coming next week, and they're dumping all the episodes.
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OlorinTheOtaku posted...

@helIy LOL, if you think those games are stupid then I guess you probably do have a reversed taste... I'm curious, could you tell me 5 or so games you actually do like? Just so I can get idea about your "Unique taste".

i like pretty much every game that isn't a garbage pile.

unfortunately, that's exactly what FF6 is. it's probably the second worst FF game, hands down.

tekken is just a boring fighting game.
swordcraft story 2 is really lame. i'd rather play a proper summon night game.
advance guardian heroes is a really barebones and lackluster beat em up.
trauma center is just not fun.
and dead to rights is a third person shooter on the PSP. you fight the controls the entire time, and the game itself is just boring.
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The Gyaru anime is starting to impress me, but it is not quite there yet. Gamers! is still plenty of fun, though, and Aho-Girl ... is what it is.

@helly Well, naturally, since you've finished P5, I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on the game as a whole. ... Preferably blacked out for spoilers.
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@helly Yeah, ok, I get that your taste in games is simply baffling & really F&%#ed up (As post #110 proves) but what I asked was, what games do you actually like? I'm really curious what you actually think a good game is.

While your at it, what do you have to say about Zelda Ocarina of time, Elder scrolls Morrowind, Super Mario 64 DS, Kirby & the amazing mirror & Gunstar heroes? It should be good for a laugh.
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I_Abibde posted...

Well, naturally, since you've finished P5, I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on the game as a whole. ... Preferably blacked out for spoilers.

it's the best persona yet. it took my two or so real life months to actually get into it any, but i'm attributing that to general disinterest in games for a while.

OlorinTheOtaku posted...

While your at it, what do you have to say about Zelda Ocarina of time, Elder scrolls Morrowind, Super Mario 64 DS, Kirby & the amazing mirror & Gunstar heroes? It should be good for a laugh.

overrated
second best ES game
it's the same as super mario 64, which is a mediocre platformer
never played it
never played it because it looks stupid

anyways, i don't know what i'm going to play next. i really need to get off my ass and power through tales of xillia, even though doing that will probably kill all desire to ever play a tales game again.
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@helly LOL, you think FF6 is garbage, Tekken is boring, SNSCS2 is lame, Advance guardian heroes is "a lack luster bare bones beat em up", Ocarina of time is overrated, Mario 64 is mediocre & that Gunstar heroes just looks stupid.

ROFL! I honestly can't tell if your just trying to be funny or if your actually serious! XD These games are legendary, I just can't take you seriously.

No offense if these are your actual opinions though, to each his own & all that, but I've honestly never seen someone shoot down so many classic & great games in such a short amount of time.
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they are definitely not legendary, by any means of the word lmao.
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eating4fun posted...

Owarimonogatari S2 coming next week, and they're dumping all the episodes.

For real? All 12 at once!? This is great news as my rewatch of the entire series is now looking to happen much earlier than I thought
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zoro-1992 posted...

eating4fun posted...

Owarimonogatari S2 coming next week, and they're dumping all the episodes.

For real? All 12 at once!? This is great news as my rewatch of the entire series is now looking to happen much earlier than I thought

Have fun. It'll actually be broadcasted over two days, so close enough to all at once. Your MAL says you're missing hana-, koyomi- and kizu- May I suggest a semi-abitrary watch order?



I like its idea to watch koyomi at the very end as a prelude to owari S2. I still think kizu fits most naturally in it's intended order (after bake), but the image puts it next to owari because the arcs are related, and kizu was delayed for so damn long.

Also, hana was suppose to be in monogatari second season, but they couldn't fit it into a 2-cour season when it was airing, so they cut it to be released some other time. It's suppose to fit according to the LNs after the first two arcs of monogatari SS, and before Nadeko Medusa.
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I too think I will use this as an excuse to watch through the whole monogatari series. MAL says I watched bake and nise but I think I actually stopped on something else half way through, maybe neko, idk. I'll probably just rewatch everything so I can re-experience the toothbrush scene and the arararararagi-san moment from those obnoxiously addicting songs mixed out of that dialogue.

I also need to look up kiyomi and kizumono to figure out what those words are since I know the rest (bakemono = monster,nisemono = fake,neko = cat, monogatari = story,hana = flower,tsuki = moon, owari = end). Mono as a suffix generally just means thing of that type like tabemono meaning thing of the tabe type, taberu being the verb for eat so the word means things you eat, aka food. I think I looked up owari though and found out it had some other meaning besides end that was being used there. I do like the naming convention even if monogatari season 2 kinda ruined it by not actually combining anything with monogari (which just means story), where they mash a word that ends in mono with story which begins with mono. This gives you something that should be bakemono monogatari ending up as bakemonogatari, just in case anyone wasn't aware of the wordplay of the titles.

EDIT: Owari does mean end in this case, kizu means scar, koyomi means calander but is also just araragi's family(?) name. I always forget if family or given name is first or second.
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YoukaiSlayer posted...

I too think I will use this as an excuse to watch through the whole monogatari series. MAL says I watched bake and nise but I think I actually stopped on something else half way through, maybe neko, idk. I'll probably just rewatch everything so I can re-experience the toothbrush scene and the arararararagi-san moment from those obnoxiously addicting songs mixed out of that dialogue.

I also need to look up kiyomi and kizumono to figure out what those words are since I know the rest (bakemono = monster,nisemono = fake,neko = cat, monogatari = story,hana = flower,tsuki = moon, owari = end). Mono as a suffix generally just means thing of that type like tabemono meaning thing of the tabe type, taberu being the verb for eat so the word means things you eat, aka food. I think I looked up owari though and found out it had some other meaning besides end that was being used there. I do like the naming convention even if monogatari season 2 kinda ruined it by not actually combining anything with monogari (which just means story), where they mash a word that ends in mono with story which begins with mono. This gives you something that should be bakemono monogatari ending up as bakemonogatari, just in case anyone wasn't aware of the wordplay of the titles.

EDIT: Owari does mean end in this case, kizu means scar, koyomi means calander but is also just araragi's family(?) name. I always forget if family or given name is first or second.

I didn't know that koyomi meant calendar; it's pretty fitting since it covers almost the entire chronology of Koyomi's story, told as a collection of short stories that revisit random arcs post-conclusion as an addendum.

Second season didn't exactly ruin the naming thing; each arc in it follows the naming scheme. Though, I don't think they were brought up in the anime. They were Neko (white), Kabuki, Hana, Otori, Oni, and Koi.
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@YoukaiSlayer "I always forget if
family or given name is first or second."

I believe in Japan, the Surname is first. Example: in America Naruto would be, Naruto Uzumaki, in Japan, Uzumaki Naruto. I hate that people switch it around, it makes it hard to tell what's a persons first name if you see his full name & don't know in what order it is.
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why do you always tag

just press quote dude

the people you tag come here anyways, it's really annoying
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helIy said: "why do you always tag
just press quote dude
the people you tag come here anyways, it's really
annoying"

My quote button doesn't work helIy, I'm using my old Samsung pocket android 2.3 with opera mini, every time I click "Quote" it just reloads the same page.

BTW, what are your opinions on, Monster Hunter (PSP), Pokemon (The GBA & DS games), Metal gear solid peace walker (PSP) & the Yu Gi Oh card games (DS & PSP)?
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then download gameraven

OlorinTheOtaku posted...

Monster Hunter (PSP)

mediocre hack n slash game with garbage controls

OlorinTheOtaku posted...

Pokemon

fine. latest gen was garbage though. boring story, most routes are just a straight line. it's dumb. hopefully ultra sumo is better. somehow.

OlorinTheOtaku posted...

Metal gear solid peace walker

never played it.

OlorinTheOtaku posted...

Yu Gi Oh card games

it completely depends on the individual game here.

also what the fuck is with you and only handheld titles dude
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helly posted...

mediocre hack n slash game with garbage controls

This offends me on a deep level. It's literally the only action game doing things correctly with dark souls struggling to sorta get half of it right. It's also objectively just not a hack and slash game.
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keyblader1985 posted...

I noticed that theater that I saw Your Name and Paprika at is showing Tekkonkinkreet Friday and Saturday. I'll probably go tomorrow night since it's supposed to rain again Saturday.

Just wanted to say I'm glad I went on Friday, because if I went on Saturday night then I probably would have gotten caught up in the storm that destroyed much of my neighborhood.
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YoukaiSlayer posted...

helly posted...

mediocre hack n slash game with garbage controls

This offends me on a deep level. It's literally the only action game doing things correctly with dark souls struggling to sorta get half of it right. It's also objectively just not a hack and slash game.

it's a mediocre hack n slash game that's riddled with boring arbitrary grinds and is generally just a complete pain in the ass.

if you're "offended" then it only means you know i'm completely correct.
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Literally not in the hack and slash genre anymore than pokemon is and no I'm actually just kinda bummed that it looks like the new MH is dropping a bit of what makes it the only good action game to pander to a wider audience but it was also mostly hyperbole.

Really though it's about the only action game that gives any depth to your reactions and actually rewards positioning, foresight and precision over just reflexes like so many garbage action games focus on.
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do you predominantly hack

and slash?

yes

it's a hack n slash game.
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Yeah, I'd agree that MH is definitely a Hack & slash, a very deep game but still a hack & slash.

LOL, helIy I don't know why most of my favorite games are handheld, that's just how it is. Its not like I'm never at my house, if I wanted I could play consoles, its just without me even noticing, the majority of my favorite games happened to be on handhelds.

BTW guys, I listed my top 100 favorite games here: https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/213-nonstop-gaming-general/75645636#3 maybe you wanna check em out, or list your own?
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YoukaiSlayer posted...

Really though it's about the only action game that gives any depth to your reactions and actually rewards positioning, foresight and precision over just reflexes like so many garbage action games focus on.

well there's demons/dark souls which I feel drew a lot of inspiration from MH because of the boss focus, co-op play, and attack timing
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keyblader1985 posted...

keyblader1985 posted...

I noticed that theater that I saw Your Name and Paprika at is showing Tekkonkinkreet Friday and Saturday. I'll probably go tomorrow night since it's supposed to rain again Saturday.

Just wanted to say I'm glad I went on Friday, because if I went on Saturday night then I probably would have gotten caught up in the storm that destroyed much of my neighborhood.

:o Did you get hit by tornado? Did the theater you saw the movie at get wrecked?
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My place is okay, but pretty much the entire shopping area behind my house is destroyed. It's just not gonna be the same place anymore.

The movie theater I went to wasn't in that area, but if I had gone there on Saturday then on my way back home I would have gone through the damaged area at the time of the storm.
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helly posted...

do you predominantly hack

and slash?

yes

it's a hack n slash game.

Yes and you primarily hack and slash in zelda so is that also a hack and slash? Hack and slash action games focus on the fast paced combo oriented 1 vs many aspect of action and monster hunter is very clearly about that slow, methodical, 1 on 1 with a kickass monster. There's a pretty clear difference between something like dynasty warriors and something like dark souls/monster hunter.

acesxhigh posted...

well there's demons/dark souls which I feel drew a lot of inspiration from MH because of the boss focus, co-op play, and attack timing

While this is true and I love dark souls, it completely ignores the aspects of positioning and precision in most cases to focus exclusively on timing. Specifically the way you react to an attack in dark souls has very little depth. You either block it or i-frame it. In MH you you can't i-frame most attacks without a specific and arguably suboptimal set up and only 2 weapon types are focused on blocking (of 14). To avoid something in monster hunter you actually have to know how the attack works and prepare for it in advance because unlike seemingly every action game out there, you have to actually physically get out of the way of most attacks instead of just i-framing them.
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lol what? Monster Hunter a hack and slash?

Its like the farthest thing from one.

YoukaiSlayer posted...

There's a pretty clear difference between something like dynasty warriors and something like dark souls/monster hunter.

yes, there are differences

they're still the same genre though
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eating4fun posted...

zoro-1992 posted...

eating4fun posted...

Owarimonogatari S2 coming next week, and they're dumping all the episodes.

For real? All 12 at once!? This is great news as my rewatch of the entire series is now looking to happen much earlier than I thought

Have fun. It'll actually be broadcasted over two days, so close enough to all at once. Your MAL says you're missing hana-, koyomi- and kizu- May I suggest a semi-abitrary watch order?



I like its idea to watch koyomi at the very end as a prelude to owari S2. I still think kizu fits most naturally in it's intended order (after bake), but the image puts it next to owari because the arcs are related, and kizu was delayed for so damn long.

Also, hana was suppose to be in monogatari second season, but they couldn't fit it into a 2-cour season when it was airing, so they cut it to be released some other time. It's suppose to fit according to the LNs after the first two arcs of monogatari SS, and before Nadeko Medusa.

Thanks for the suggestion, upon double-checking I have actually seen Hana- but I didn't add it to my completed list for some reason. I do plan on watching Koyo- towards the end and as for Kizu- I'm actually gonna start with it first when I do get around to watching it again since I have a (kinda) decent timeline order that I made after spending a while looking up the particulars using good old Google, as for Owari- part 2 I'll add that down towards the end too because iirc from when I checked it does happen "later" in the timeline
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Yes, the genre of action games, but they don't share the same sub genre of hack and slash. This isn't like an opinion or something, this is straight up fact. It's like trying to claim call of duty is MMORPG or something. It just isn't. You seem to have a misconception about the hack and slash genre.

Anyway, I started my watch of monogatari series and am 2 episodes into bakemonogatari. I've already seen bake and nise before but I didn't remember just how well edited and filmed this series is. Shaft really know how to give a series a unique feel solely through animation, and even if they aren't one of the most technically proficient studios, they are one of my favorites.

I really like how the style they choose for a show generally compliments the show in question. Monogatari is a series about oddities in a highschool setting and the entire asthetic almost seems like the view a monster might have of the setting with a different color pallet and contrast. The interesting camera angles and quick cuts of colored backgrounds with dialogue give a sense of mystery and do a great job in keeping the moment to moment visual information interesting in a show that primary has people standing around talking. Shaft really feels like the right studio for the job in this case and I'm glad it went to them.

Similarly in maria holic (another shaft series) they had very strange backgrounds but a fairly normal design sense for characters. This gives the impression of a daydream or fantasy which fits the show fantastically as most of it is kanako's yuri dream come true and takes it from a mediocre school harem anime that happens to be yuri into an entirely unique production that has value aside from yuri harem (in which nothing is accomplished sadly, poor delusional warrior kanako).

I guess I'm just thinking about these things more than before because I recently watched most of canipa effects studio spotlight videos as well as shirobako but I feel like I have a new appreciation for the studio and perhaps a more concrete understanding of why I like the monogatari series.
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YoukaiSlayer posted...

Yes, the genre of action games, but they don't share the same sub genre of hack and slash. This isn't like an opinion or something, this is straight up fact. It's like trying to claim call of duty is MMORPG or something. It just isn't. You seem to have a misconception about the hack and slash genre.

Anyway, I started my watch of monogatari series and am 2 episodes into bakemonogatari. I've already seen bake and nise before but I didn't remember just how well edited and filmed this series is. Shaft really know how to give a series a unique feel solely through animation, and even if they aren't one of the most technically proficient studios, they are one of my favorites.

I really like how the style they choose for a show generally compliments the show in question. Monogatari is a series about oddities in a highschool setting and the entire asthetic almost seems like the view a monster might have of the setting with a different color pallet and contrast. The interesting camera angles and quick cuts of colored backgrounds with dialogue give a sense of mystery and do a great job in keeping the moment to moment visual information interesting in a show that primary has people standing around talking. Shaft really feels like the right studio for the job in this case and I'm glad it went to them.

Similarly in maria holic (another shaft series) they had very strange backgrounds but a fairly normal design sense for characters. This gives the impression of a daydream or fantasy which fits the show fantastically as most of it is kanako's yuri dream come true and takes it from a mediocre school harem anime that happens to be yuri into an entirely unique production that has value aside from yuri harem (in which nothing is accomplished sadly, poor delusional warrior kanako).

I guess I'm just thinking about these things more than before because I recently watched most of canipa effects studio spotlight videos as well as shirobako but I feel like I have a new appreciation for the studio and perhaps a more concrete understanding of why I like the monogatari series.

Yea, Shaft is amazing and their style is truly unreplicable. The monogatari series would not be the same without Shaft.
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YoukaiSlayer posted...

Yes, the genre of action games, but they don't share the same sub genre of hack and slash. This isn't like an opinion or something, this is straight up fact. It's like trying to claim call of duty is MMORPG or something. It just isn't. You seem to have a misconception about the hack and slash genre.

uh, no.

they only one with the misconception here is you
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I mean, you're just wrong. Looking at any site lists MH as either an action RPG or an action game. These are sites with hack and slash as a genre and they intentionally didn't put MH in that genre.

Hack and slash is an evolution of the beat em up genre, not general action games.

All of this ignores the fact that there are many weapons that cannot hack or slash like the guns or bows.

"Distinct from hack and slash role-playing games, the term "hack and slash" also began being used to refer to weapon-based beat 'em up action games, such as the Golden Axe series"

"Beat 'em up (also known as brawler) is a video game genre featuring hand-to-hand combat between the protagonist and an improbably large number of opponents. "

You are wrong. Accept it.
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Started Natsume Yuujinchou Go.
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YoukaiSlayer posted...

I mean, you're just wrong. Looking at any site lists MH as either an action RPG or an action game. These are sites with hack and slash as a genre and they intentionally didn't put MH in that genre.

good for them...? it's still a hack n slash game.

YoukaiSlayer posted...

All of this ignores the fact that there are many weapons that cannot hack or slash like the guns or bows.

use dynasty warriors as an example again. there's more than several characters that use bows, or otherwise do not have traditional hack n slashy weapons. you can use diablo as an example, dark/demon souls as an example, bloodborne, path of exile, zelda, ect. all as examples that fit this criteria 100%

YoukaiSlayer posted...

Distinct from hack and slash role-playing games, the term "hack and slash" also began being used to refer to weapon-based beat 'em up action games

you just described monster hunter with that, btw.
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Beat em up action games are games in which you fight LOTS OF OPPONENTS. Hack and slash action games are games in which you fight LOTS OF OPPONENTS with melee weapons. In monster hunter you typically fight ONE OPPONENT.

The bows and guns in dynasty warriors typically still function as melee weapons, just with slightly longer range and do function as melee weapons in close range. This was more a response to your "the game has you hacking and slashing" than a re-enforcement of what hack and slash games actually are.

You also cherry pick parts of my argument to respond to ignoring things like primarily hacking and slashing in zelda and ignoring the part where fighting consistently against large groups of opponents is vital for a game to be in the hack and slash genre.
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Ok, I change my mind, YoukaiSlayer is right MH definitely isn't a Hack'n slash. But I still feel that it definitely contains some aspects of a hack & slash... Like if your using a melee weapon against a bunch of low level monsters, it can feel like a hack & slash.

But overall, I don't think I'd call MH a hack & slash, that would be like calling GTA a Sports game (Tennis, golf, darts, pool) sure you can do that, but its not exactly the focus of GTA.
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Hmm. The only Monster Hunter I have is the PS2 original, and I only have that because my managers at EB Games (... thirteen years ago) pressured me into buying it to boost their pre-order sale numbers (see also: God of War). Could not get into it, but not because of the game play. ... Playing a game I had no desire to buy in the first place is not fun, IMO.
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I find that most people either love or hate MH, I haven't seen someone on a middle ground about it.
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You should all learn to just come to peace with how wrong helly is and don't argue with him. Find it interesting and question yourself when you actually agree with something he says and if I haven't said it yet don't argue with him. Broken record
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FellWolf posted...

You should all learn to just come to peace with how wrong helly is and don't argue with him. Find it interesting and question yourself when you actually agree with something he says and if I haven't said it yet don't argue with him. Broken record

This.
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I'm watching Waiting in the Summer, arbitrarily chosen as a 1-cour show to be a breather before I finish two much longer shows.

It's alright. The show is beautiful, but the later episodes weren't as pretty as the early episodes. The characters and show itself is pretty shallow, but somehow a bit endearing. It feels like an anime from the 90's or early 00's, which is weird to say because I personally haven't seen shows like this of that era; I know they're plentiful.



I also want to talk about Katanagatari. I know people like this show a lot, I can see why, but I'm not feeling it. I gotta slog through 2 more episodes, and I'm sure it'll finish strong. It's verbose like Monogatari, but communicates less and doesn't have Monogatari's stunning visual direction during dialogue. The hour long episodes are a slog. Some episodes are pretty good, but generally, there's a whole lot of nothing that's riddled with some interesting bits. It doesn't help that I don't find Shichika and Togame very interesting. I actually like the Maniwani guys more even though they're one note.

I think I'm biased against shows that focus mainly on a core duo, and either live or die by it. Spice and Wolf comes to mind; Holo is unique for sure, but to me, she comes off as a bitch. A duo I like is Shiki and Mikiya from Kara no Kyoukai; The show spends it's entirety growing/creating Shiki as a character in addition to the show having so much else to offer.
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eating4fun posted...

I also want to talk about Katanagatari. I know people like this show a lot, I can see why, but I'm not feeling it. I gotta slog through 2 more episodes, and I'm sure it'll finish strong. It's verbose like Monogatari, but communicates less and doesn't have Monogatari's stunning visual direction during dialogue. The hour long episodes are a slog. Some episodes are pretty good, but generally, there's a whole lot of nothing that's riddled with some interesting bits. It doesn't help that I don't find Shichika and Togame very interesting. I actually like the Maniwani guys more even though they're one note.

I think I'm biased against shows that focus mainly on a core duo, and either live or die by it. Spice and Wolf comes to mind; Holo is unique for sure, but to me, she comes off as a bitch. A duo I like is Shiki and Mikiya from Kara no Kyoukai; The show spends it's entirety growing/creating Shiki as a character in addition to the show having so much else to offer.

I liked katanagatari UNTIL the last episodes. Imo it made everything in the rest of the show irrelevant and made dramatic moments feel like complete bullshit because there was just no reason for any of it to happen.
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YoukaiSlayer posted...

I liked katanagatari UNTIL the last episodes. Imo it made everything in the rest of the show irrelevant and made dramatic moments feel like complete bullshit because there was just no reason for any of it to happen.

Ha, now I'm more curious. I'll be the judge if it felt like it made it home or derailed.
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