Board 8 > VGMC 11: Coming Soon(tm) -- AMA

(+) Yeah! (+)

*returns to the board*

I ended up moving about a hundred songs that had been sitting in old private VGM playlists I made about a decade ago into my nomination shortlist playlist on youtube a couple of months ago, I guess I'll have to look through all that soon so I can decide what to actually go with.

TsunamiXXVIII posted...

I miss BOST, though; it's a good way to give songs exposure.

I was debating trying to either run this or a remix contest during the "offseason" as it were, and then real life said "lol no." Alas.
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I'm 99.999% sure the answer to this is "absolutely not" but since we seem to be keeping this topic around why not.

I know (actually, in retrospect, I only think, and this seems theoretical since the games use remixes) Hikari/Passion (the Kingdom Hearts OPs) are out, but what about the Ray of Hope mix used in KH 2.8?

I assume it is out just like the PLANITB mixes actually used for the KH/KH2 OPs are presumably out (because otherwise I assume they'd have been in long ago)... on the other hand Kingdom Orchestra version of Hikari made it in so I don't know what the exact line here was.
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NioraptH posted...

Can we discuss songs or is it rallying?

Here? Sure. The contest hasn't started yet. Once noms open, that's a different story.

okay so

question, are songs from Drift Stage allowed? the game's still only in (public) alpha, but the first volume of the soundtrack came out a few months ago (and it's incredibly good).

another question, what's the current verdict on full versions of songs from rhythm games? I recall that there was a lot of leniency towards full versions last contest, though I'm sure that was largely because of apathy towards last contest in general. idk

Orochimaru_Fan posted...

question, are songs from Drift Stage allowed? the game's still only in (public) alpha, but the first volume of the soundtrack came out a few months ago (and it's incredibly good).

Going to need some more background here. It's been greenlit on Steam, but doesn't appear yet. If it were officially in early access, I'd say fine. That's basically the same thing as saying "people are playing the game already even though it's still being worked on."

Thing that I'm curious about is that the page for it on Steam says "Release date: Mid-Late 2015" and we're obviously WELL past that. What I see elsewhere right now is that it's available as a "demo". I'm a little leery to approve of a demo.

another question, what's the current verdict on full versions of songs from rhythm games? I recall that there was a lot of leniency towards full versions last contest, though I'm sure that was largely because of apathy towards last contest in general. idk

I'm going to take a stance here. It may not be the status quo. It may not be what you're used to. But even as we're one year removed from a year where a rhythm game track won and two years from a contest where the winner was the lone semifinalist that wasn't from a rhythm game, I think we need to be more stringent about how rhythm game tracks are approved.

The rule, for every other genre, has always been that the version in the contest has to appear in the game. I'm not convinced that this necessarily has been the case for all rhythm entrants. I suspect there were a few cases where the long version genuinely did appear in the background somewhere, and it became annoying enough to track down whether or not the long version was on-disc for other games, and eventually the host just got fed up with the guesswork and made a blanket rule. That doesn't mean I like what feels like an inconsistency in the way the rules are enforced.

So what I'm going to say is this: The version nominated for the contest has to appear in the game. Period. Full stop. No weird sorta exceptions for rhythm games. However, I'm going to take this more or less on an honor system. If you can justify the song's presence, I'm not going to do the research to verify or disprove it myself. I'll have my hands full with enough other stuff without combing through gameplay footage.

And what exactly is the point of that rule?
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removing full versions of songs is another thing that was on my shortlist of changes

keep up the good work
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And you didn't answer before, but would the combined Asgore/Bergentruckung be eligible under these rules, since they're separate on the soundtrack but play together in the game?
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wow skipping my kh question. cold blooded. i see how it is.

Request for Clarification on your bold stance there. Does this mean that OPs of games must now be the short version if the full version does not play? Similarly, to go back to my CS2 example, would I only be able to nominate it if I could find a link that uses the same short version used in-game?
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Mac Arrowny posted...

And what exactly is the point of that rule?

I'm not clear on the question. Are you talking about "the song must appear in the game" or my application of it to rhythm games? If it's the latter, consistency. If it's the former, to ensure that we're discussing VGM and not video game-inspired music.

I am, as a general rule, in favor of inclusion over exclusion. I gave the nod to a couple borderline cases earlier. But the core tenet of the contest is that we are voting for our favorite music from video games. I'd rather admit the music from Braid -- which is technically licensed, but not from anywhere anyone's ever heard of -- than work with music that doesn't actually exist within a game, regardless of its tie-ins. There's a slippery slope there where allowing those tracks would eventually lead to an argument where we should also be able to nominate songs from the Black Mages or off OCRemix.

Mac Arrowny posted...

And you didn't answer before, but would the combined Asgore/Bergentruckung be eligible under these rules, since they're separate on the soundtrack but play together in the game?

No, because ASGORE retired.

And if you want to argue it simply for academic purposes, the answer is still no. Despite assertions to the contrary, they don't play together.

xp1337 posted...

wow skipping my kh question. cold blooded. i see how it is.

Sorry, I'm not really familiar with all the KH stuff, and you already seemed convinced of the answer. I'm afraid I can't weigh in on this one without a little more understanding of what's at work.

Request for Clarification on your bold stance there. Does this mean that OPs of games must now be the short version if the full version does not play? Similarly, to go back to my CS2 example, would I only be able to nominate it if I could find a link that uses the same short version used in-game?

*tries to determine what OP means in this context*
*knows I've heard it before and I'm going to feel really dumb*
*sheepishly shrugs and walks away*

And yes, that's what I'm saying, even if it's slightly awkward with the song you're referencing.

azuarc posted...

No, because ASGORE retired.

And if you want to argue it simply for academic purposes, the answer is still no. Despite assertions to the contrary, they don't play together.

How about Your Best Nightmare/Finale? Those really do play next to each other.
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azuarc posted...

The rule, for every other genre, has always been that the version in the contest has to appear in the game.

So it's basically impossible to find the in-game versions of Exa Pico songs. They're not on the OSTs, and they're generally not uploaded. I couldn't even tell you when the in-game version of EXEC_SPHILIA loops, for instance.

By OP, XP means "opening movie."

As for Massive Explosion, I think I prefer the original.
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Do the full versions of rhythm game songs even contain original content? The long version of Dark Legacy, for example, is just a looped version of the short version (that's part of why I actually prefer the short version...). Are we cutting out all looped songs?
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Most every Deemo song contains an extra verse or something on the OST version, for instance.
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Mac Arrowny posted...

Do the full versions of rhythm game songs even contain original content?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTbkXKcjNRo
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dowolf posted...

azuarc posted...

The rule, for every other genre, has always been that the version in the contest has to appear in the game.

So it's basically impossible to find the in-game versions of Exa Pico songs. They're not on the OSTs, and they're generally not uploaded. I couldn't even tell you when the in-game version of EXEC_SPHILIA loops, for instance.

All right, what other complications are there? Let's figure this out now. I don't want to propose anything without knowing what all the ripples are.

th3l3fty posted...

Mac Arrowny posted...

Do the full versions of rhythm game songs even contain original content?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTbkXKcjNRo

That one plays in the credits for the game though, doesn't it?
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azuarc posted...

All right, what other complications are there? Let's figure this out now. I don't want to propose anything without knowing what all the ripples are.

Off the top of my head:
--Atelier vocal songs have similar-ish problems? Most vocal songs there are either combat music (like EXEC_SPHILIA) and therefore loop at some point, while their OST versions tend to have "proper" endings, or are simply played at some point in the story as background music for like a minute when on the OST the song is five or six minutes long. I imagine other games with vocal tracks may have these problems, though I don't know for sure.
--Like with Cold Steel 2, most anime-style opening songs (think Tales series) tend to be shortened versions than what can be found on the OST (though the Exa Pico games are an interesting exception here -- they invariably use the full version of the various Singing Hills songs! -- though the Atelier games do not).
--I can't remember whether or not some of the Myst 4 vocal songs (e.g. Welcome) play their full versions in-game or not, but I don't recall the scene where it plays being three minutes long so >_> (EDIT: went back and checked; a minute of it plays in-game)
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Okay, so there were some unintended corrolaries to my statement earlier. It's perfectly clear to me what I intended, but that obviously didn't translate well to establishing a well-defined position on the matter. I don't know how to put this in lawyer-y terms that won't get picked apart, but basically if there is an in-game version that is "normal" and reasonable to use, then that version should be used. If there isn't, then reference whatever is included on the OST. Does that make sense?

The intent was not to spite a zillion other songs that have unique or creative uses. Obviously there's no way to represent a track that evolves dynamically based on the player's circumstances -- Skies of Arcadia battle music or DK64 stage themes, for instance -- because there's no definitive in-game experience with that song. I also remember a game I played (Treasure Quest) that cut up the tracks from each area and only played little snippets of them on occasion. The only way you'd hear the actual song was by going to the soundtrack. Stating that all tracks of every flavor must be represented by strictly what the player experiences doesn't make sense...as much as that would have simplified things considerably if that was all that needed to be said.

All I really wanted to do, on this occasion, was say, "if there's a long version, shouldn't that mean there's a short version, too? Why aren't we using that, if this long version isn't in the game?" But since that obviously wasn't (all) that my statement earlier conveyed, I'm glad we're having this dialogue before the contest!

On a completely different note, XP: I just started Chapter 6 of Ciel nosurge, and... Is this the song you were looking for?

https://youtu.be/7F6mk2piWvI
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dowolf posted...

On a completely different note, XP: I just started Chapter 6 of Ciel nosurge, and... Is this the song you were looking for?

Yes.

You are a hero.

(Hearing the whole thing, I think the beginning is the strongest part, which is a bit of a shame but still <3)
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azuarc posted...

I don't know how to put this in lawyer-y terms that won't get picked apart, but basically if there is an in-game version that is "normal" and reasonable to use, then that version should be used. If there isn't, then reference whatever is included on the OST. Does that make sense?

I think I get what you're saying, but I think this could get somewhat problematic if taken at face value.

This probably works for OPs (dowolf was correct that I meant opening movies, although in this context I specifically mean the songs played.) Since you usually have those lying around, although this would be a major change from past contests. I think it'd be a lot shorter to compile a list where the short/OP versions were used in place of the full ones.

Meanwhile, on a purely hypothetical situation, a game like AT3 that dynamically changes the music based on what's going on in battle, that obviously couldn't be replicated.

But I think this still leaves a bit of a grey area with regards to "reasonable." Like dowolf says, often in EXA_PICO the loops are different in-game because it's a battle theme and so doesn't have a "proper" ending like the OST versions do. Or whathave you. Is it reasonable to use the OST there simply because an in-game loop version isn't lying around and would probably be a bit of a pain to research/make? Same for the CS2 example I used for Aria which is a similar situation.

Doing this case-by-case feels like it would shove a whole ton of work on you and doesn't seem like a good solution to me. I guess we could honor system it, but... then I'm just going to case-by-case everything I nom to you out of paranoia that I'm unintentionally breaking the rule. >_>

Like, does the fact that a link to a "pure" in-game version may not be around suffice as "reasonable" to use the OST? I feel like it shouldn't be from a precedent standpoint even if it probably is a good test in the vast majority of cases.
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xp1337 posted...

Meanwhile, on a purely hypothetical situation, a game like AT3 that dynamically changes the music based on what's going on in battle, that obviously couldn't be replicated.

...I wonder if there was someone who managed to get through the entire game without ever hearing "Buri! Hamachi!" and then was extremely confused when they encountered the meme.
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azuarc posted...

Orochimaru_Fan posted...

question, are songs from Drift Stage allowed? the game's still only in (public) alpha, but the first volume of the soundtrack came out a few months ago (and it's incredibly good).

Going to need some more background here. It's been greenlit on Steam, but doesn't appear yet. If it were officially in early access, I'd say fine. That's basically the same thing as saying "people are playing the game already even though it's still being worked on."

Thing that I'm curious about is that the page for it on Steam says "Release date: Mid-Late 2015" and we're obviously WELL past that. What I see elsewhere right now is that it's available as a "demo". I'm a little leery to approve of a demo.

Basically, I think it's practically in some form of early access right now, just not on Steam. The reason they're calling it an alpha demo even now is largely because they actually haven't finished most of the stages or implemented online functionality at all. Everything else is more or less in a completed state, including the music. The first soundtrack volume looks like it'll cover all the music in the full game, with a good chunk of it already included in the current build. Anything after that will probably be in some big update or DLC pack.

oh yeah one other thing I forgot I was going to bring up for posterity's sake

I found out that OST 7 from Rivals of Aether actually had an official title already even though the soundtrack isn't out yet. It's called Luna Ascension EX.

Orochimaru_Fan posted...

oh yeah one other thing I forgot I was going to bring up for posterity's sake

I found out that OST 7 from Rivals of Aether actually had an official title already even though the soundtrack isn't out yet. It's called Luna Ascension EX.

Songs list updated.

oh hey how about that Ciel nosurge chapter 7 map theme:

https://youtu.be/YHh6E9geU50

(feel free to yell at me if i'm starting to fly too far off-topic >_>)
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dowolf posted...

oh hey how about that Ciel nosurge chapter 7 map theme:

https://youtu.be/YHh6E9geU50

(feel free to yell at me if i'm starting to fly too far off-topic >_>)

Hey, there's my favorite non-hymn song from Ciel! I was wondering when it'd show up ingame (just finished chapter 6 in my own watching)
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dowolf posted...

(feel free to yell at me if i'm starting to fly too far off-topic >_>)

I consider it free bumps while I mull over the best way to resolve my previous declaration and its complications.

I actually found a single link to that song when I was searching for the Chapter 6 one. And yeah, it's good too.

chapter 6 intro is godlike though >_>
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Chapter 8 map theme? Chapter 8 map theme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXfft02mOFY

(If there's any tracks people would like me to upload that they can't find, feel free to ask.)
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Private video. Also I kind of stopped uploading oops. I'll finish the songs later today.
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whoops. That's fixed now.
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LeonhartFour posted...

Haste_2 posted...

Another tournament coming soon? Excellent. Time to get Apollo Justice and Athena Cyke's 2016 objection themes in this! (Because they're the best things ever)

only to lament when they lose round 1 because "they're only good in context"

You're probably right. But Spirit of Justice's objection themes are considered the best in the series, so there's still yet some hope. I wonder about Lady Keera's theme, too.
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abandon hope all ye who enter here

I actually encountered that line as I was playing Apollo Justice tonight so it's rather fitting
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Decision:
I'm not completely going back on my earlier statement, however I will not be actively enforcing my position on long versions. Rather, I will simply point to my right to change YouTube links at my discretion...which is nothing new, considering about 10% of the tracks nominated last year were linked to extended videos that looped 5+ times, and another decent chunk were of poor enough sound quality even I could tell the difference.


Pre-announcement:
I'm assuming everyone who has posted here is following the topic, but I simply want to remind everyone that the contest could start at any time. It will likely be on a Tuesday or Wednesday because that's the end of my "work week" right now. (Tuesday is my Friday.)

Ok, what f***ing game was Black and White from? I thought it was Blazblue but that's apparently not correct, and I can't search for anything generic because Pokemon shows up.

I'm starting to think that I composed it in my sleep.
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azuarc posted...

but I simply want to remind everyone that the contest could start at any time.

we want the damn bracket
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http://i.imgur.com/N3gbSA7.png
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xp1337 posted...

we want the damn bracket

k. here ya go.

http://www.bracketmaker.com/tmenu.cfm?tid=465658

Multiple brackets again this year?
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yikes, thread was way too close to purging.

Do you want mod control of my dead community board dedicated to vgm?
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link?

almost time for a new page...

So a couple things...and no, none of them are that nominations are open.

1) Curiosity question: If you were in my position, and could make any one change to VGMC, what would it be?
2) GiftedACIII has made me a leader on his board, The Art of VGM. While I know I can't post the contest threads there if I want them to get bumped by the B8 community, I am curious if anyone has any thoughts on how we can make use of this space for the contest. (Or for other VGM purposes. It could certainly use some extra traffic.)
3) Newbie is in the process of updating the script right now. To give him something to test with, I'd appreciate if anyone looking in the immediate future could post a few "nominations" here: https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/1028-the-art-of-vgm/75009242