Board 8 > Doc Ranks the Animated Disney Canon Pt 2: I Want Much More Than Those 500 Posts!

(+) Yeah! (+)

Tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow.

Didn't have time last week. >_>

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Aww, I lost to SuperNiceDog, Winner of the Rivalry Rumble Guru Contest

Oh, the opening short, 'La Lune' was totally adorable although not really humorous.

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Proud ValHellen x Maha_Bufudyne shipper.

GenesisSaga posted...

I'm gonna guess Hercules.

How Chris feels about The Princess and the Frog is how I feel about Hercules.

How could anyone think Hercules is more boring than TPatF. I like the latter, but Chris is right about it being kind of slow especially in the middle.

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SuperNiceDog won the Guru contest super nicely!

Oh missed that part.

Nemesis!

*shakes fist

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Aww, I lost to SuperNiceDog, Winner of the Rivalry Rumble Guru Contest

Of course Chris is right, my Disney opinions are very well informed, even if we don't all agree all the time!

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The Cult of Personality.

So I just finished watching Enchanted for the first time. It's a really fun movie... a little predictable at times, but fun. I had a big, stupid grin on my face for every song, especially "True Love's Kiss" and "That's How You Know." It's a little difficult to rank due to the film being in live-action for most of the film, but it would probably fall in the low 20's for me right now. Giselle was amazing, but I didn't like Robert or Pip at all.

I did love all of the Disney easter eggs though. I caught Part of Your World playing in the background at one point, Fun and Fancy Free on the tv in the background, a restaurant called Bella Notte, The Grand Duke hotel that Edward stays in, and Jodi Benson, Paige O’Hara and Judy Kuhn all had brief cameos! I’m sure there’s probably even more I’d catch on another watchthrough. Overall I'm glad you asked me my opinion on it since I finally got around to watching it and enjoyed it a lot.

#19 – Pocahontas (1995)

Best Character: Pocahontas
Worst Character: Thomas

What I love most about this film is
The animation’s good and the songs are great.
My ranking’s always changing, always shifting.
But people, I guess, don’t like this film.
Too many think it’s dull.
To be great, it needs a better story!
WHAT’S AROUND THE RIVERBEND
WAITING JUST AROUND THE RIVERBEND

I LOOK ONCE MO-

Alright, enough of that. On to the actual write-up!

The characters, while not as strong as their contemporaries from the Disney Renaissance, are likable for the most part. Pocahontas is a great lead. I don’t know why she doesn’t receive more popularity, and I wish I could help her out more in the next Disney contest. You and me, Suor. We’re taking her to the top in the contest after next. She has a beautiful voice, a caring personality and single-handedly prevents a war from devastating her people. She is by far my favorite character in the film. Alongside Pocahontas is John Smith, and frankly I really don’t understand why he’s so forgettable. He’s kind, daring, and actually receives a good amount of screen time in the film. There’s just something boring about him. I can’t quite place it. As for the villain, Governor John Ratcliffe is the worst the Disney Renaissance has to offer. Yes, worse than Clayton and worse than McLeach. He’s just this pompous old guy that really doesn’t do much. He rallies his troops and stirs them up against the Indians, but that’s about it. His saving grace is the song “Savages,” which is actually quite good.

As for the side characters, the film has some good and some bad. Let’s start with the bad – all of the explorers save for John Smith. Thomas is ridiculously inept at everything he does. In the very opening minutes he falls overboard only to be rescued by John Smith. Then later he spies on John Smith as he’s leaving the campsite and is told to follow him. And if that wasn’t enough he ultimately shoots Kocoum and completely flips out. His female equivalent on Team Indian is Nakoma, who is also terrible for constantly ratting out Pocahontas and ultimately being the one who inadvertently sends Kocoum to his death. Now to the good! Even though Ermine isn’t following the topic, I have to give a shout out to Meeko. I’ve really come around to Meek over the years, as he’s really the only comedic relief the film has to offer. His antics with Flit, Percy and even with John Smith and his crackers are all very welcome additions. Not to mention Meeko is super cute, so there’s that. The other side characters aren’t as memorable, but a few are okay I suppose. Grandmother Willow, Chief Powhatan and even Wiggins all had their moments I enjoyed.

One of my main issues with the film is that the relationship between Pocahontas and John Smith isn’t very convincing. For starters, the way they fall in love is pretty unbelievable. John Smith just stares at her and immediately falls head over heels in love. For someone who has been to “hundreds” of new worlds, you would think he’d be able to handle a native woman. Nope! I also didn’t like how Pocahontas was able to understand John Smith immediately. The film just whispered the words “Listen with your heart. You will understand” in the background alongside some spiraling leaves and called it good. It’s a silly copout that really shouldn’t have been done given how serious the film was trying to take itself. The animators should have focused more on body language and communicating that way as opposed to taking the easy path and magically making Pocahontas and John Smith communicate with each other.

Their relationship also needed its own love song. Look at the big four from the Renaissance. The Little Mermaid has “Kiss the Girl,” Beauty and the Beast has “Beauty and the Beast,” Aladdin has “A Whole New World,” and The Lion King has “Can You Feel the Love Tonight.” For a film that strived to be listed among these films so desperately, it missed out on having a strong love song between the two leads. A lot of people aren’t aware of this, but at one point Pocahontas did actually have such a love song, called “If I Never Knew You”. This song gave me multiple chills when I first watched it, and to me dramatically improved the relationship between John Smith and Pocahontas. They both seem resigned to John Smith’s fate but they maintain their meeting was a good one. It’s a great segment that should definitely have been in the original edition. It was cut for some reason, but it still exists on the 10th anniversary edition DVD and can be found here:



My favorite thing about this film is the soundtrack. It’s phenomenal. “Colors of the Wind” is a beautiful piece, and would no doubt make my top 10 Disney songs. My second favorite, “Just Around the Riverbend” would likely make my top 20 and is also amazing. Judy Khun has a perfect voice for the atmosphere established in Pocahontas, and both of her songs top my list for the film. As for the ones Judy Khun doesn’t sing, “Steady as the Beating Drum,” “Listen With Your Heart,” and “Savages (Part 1)” are all great accompanying pieces. “Savages (Part 2)” may be my favorite reprise in the entire canon (I say this for like five Disney reprises, so you know). I love the way the voices of the men are intertwined with Pocahontas as she sprints to save John Smith. Even though there isn’t any fighting during the climax, this song alone really builds up the tension of the scene. There are a couple duds in the soundtrack such as “The Virgina Company” and “Mine Mine Mine” but they really don’t detract too much from the quality of the rest of the soundtrack.

Okay, so I may have let my love of the soundtrack really influence this film’s ranking. The film can, at times, drag on a little. And sure, it can get a little preachy every now and then, but that doesn’t really bother me too much. While not quite what those who were working on it hoped it would be, Pocahontas is still beautifully animated and filled with amazing songs and a great character in Pocahontas.

Next Up: This film contains a brief cameo of at least one Disney character from another film within the canon.

Hercules

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Hercules

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Fennec... :3
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Though Aladdin also features at least one cameo

/Brett

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Fennec... :3
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I'm on a roll with the guesses now lol.

I'll say Hunchback is next. Belle, Carpet, and Pumbaa are all in it I'm pretty sure.

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"THIS is how you make Nintendo win another generation. Good job, Sony and Microsoft, you're idiots." - Vlado

If Hunchback is next I will flip, especially with some of the stuff still in.

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I don't believe there are any noticeable cameos in HoND, so I doubt it.

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Fennec... :3
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StifledSilence posted...

I'm on a roll with the guesses now lol.

I'll say Hunchback is next. Belle, Carpet, and Pumbaa are all in it I'm pretty sure.

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darkx 3DS FC: 5241-2144-5671 (add me and pm me urs!)
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I think Pocahontas is the consensus least favorite of the Renaissance films (not counting Rescuers since most people forget that anyway). The main antagonist of the film is virtually non-existent, the thing that has to be conquered here is the racial barrier. While that's well and good, it also tends to make for a weak supporting cast. I personally have no attachment to any of them. Grandmother Willow is probably the only one I'd be willing to consider good. Meeko is tolerable following my rewatch, but is another character spoiled for me by SMDC.

Glad you gave a shoutout to If I Never Knew You; my last rewatch included this and it fit so well I forgot it wasn't part of the original film. I'm scratching my head figuring out why it was cut. Sometimes I can understand cut songs but this is a case where it baffles me. It's easily superior to more than one song that did make the final cut.

Also, when I first glanced over your write-up my eyes caught John Smith and his crackers... and given the theme of the movie... rather lolworthy.

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Still smilin'
:>

Haha, I didn't catch that when I wrote it.

Apparently "If I Never Knew You" was cut because the little kids they were testing the sequence on didn't really like it. I suppose I could see not liking it from a kid's perspective, but given how serious the film was trying to be it still seems like a silly reason to cut it. Especially since it tested well with the teens and adults.

I excuse the language thing for the most part because it would've probably made the whole film harder to follow for little kids.

I agree with the write-up for the most part (I still would've placed it above Snow White and Cinderella at least, but eeh), especially about Pocahontas' character. Pocahontas is great and she's really underrated. Glad that you're on board for "SMDC Pocahontas Edition 2014" :P.

Something that you didn't mention is that this is basically the only Renaissance movie that doesn't have a happy ending. I appreciated it for a change.

As for the next.... I'm guessing Hunchback.

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SuperNiceDog won the Guru contest super nicely!

Also guys remember, Pocahontas 2 never existed. IT. DOESN'T. EXIST.

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SuperNiceDog won the Guru contest super nicely!

Tarzan also had a cameo of The Magic Rug and Mrs. Potts, right?

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Proud ValHellen x Maha_Bufudyne shipper.

Cameos. That's an easy one. Bye bye Al. Nice knowing you.

Gonna guess Hercules. Dat Scar throw rug.

"Just Around the Riverbend" would probably be in my top 10 Disney songs. I love it. Whenever it pops on my iPod, I can't help but sing along. Such a great tune. But yeah, Pocahontas is the weakest of the Renaissance era by a pretty wide margin in my book. It would have went out before this spot for me. The music is fantastic, but the characters don't really resonate with me. Overall decent movie, but not up to the elite standard.

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Raka_Putra posted...

Tarzan also had a cameo of The Magic Rug and Mrs. Potts, right?

yes

Pocahontas

Doc's Ranking 19/51
Karo's Ranking 29/49

The first part of this movie plays out like a bad ripoff of 'The Little Mermaid' (girl likes guy from other world, daddy doesn't like that idea, tells her to stay away, she doesn't listen). Only, this time around, all the characters are boring and lame, simply one of the worst collection of main characters ever made by Disney. The shortcomings are especially pronounced when compared with the characters of the other Renaissance movies.
In addition, this movie is obsessed with political correctness to an absurd level, and it drags down the movie terribly (for example, all the europeans are a bunch of violent, greedy morons who only think of killing 'filthy savages' and tearing up the countryside in the search of non-existent gold).
It's a shame there is so much fail here, because there is some really great artistry in the backgrounds and animation, and the songs are awesome (especially colors of the wind).


Best Character: Meeko

Meeko's scenes were the only parts of the movie I enjoyed other then the songs. He's a great sidekick, and adds some much needed personality to a movie where most of the characters have just about none.


Worst Character: Governor Ratcliffe

A terrible, horrible villain. Ratcliffe is a one-dimensional idiot who, despite having an educated upbringing, thinks that there will be like 24-karat gold bars sticking out of the ground all over the New World. Hmm, good luck with that.

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SuperNiceDog is about 20% cooler then the other gurus.

I honestly think that Pocahontas is worse than Cinderella/Snow White, so no complaints from me!

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I do because I can.....and because I'm bored.
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From: most_games_r_ok | #224

I honestly think that Pocahontas is worse than Cinderella/Snow White, so no complaints from me!

I mean, you're blatantly wrong, so there's that.

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From: Regaro_Ukiera |
MWC is god-tier

Good riddance Pocahontas.

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Aww, I lost to SuperNiceDog, Winner of the Rivalry Rumble Guru Contest

Karo's write up, on the other hand, doesn't quite get it.

Especially the "Little Mermaid" ripoff, the premise is completely different.

I'll explain further when I have the time.

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SuperNiceDog won the Guru contest super nicely!

Oh that reminds me.

Pocahontas 2 was that vilified?

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Aww, I lost to SuperNiceDog, Winner of the Rivalry Rumble Guru Contest

I rewatched all the package films the past few days. I was pleasantly surprised. They're still among my least favorites in the Disney canon, but better than I remembered.

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"THIS is how you make Nintendo win another generation. Good job, Sony and Microsoft, you're idiots." - Vlado

How would you rank them, Stifled?

No update by the way. I'm packing today and moving tomorrow.

Hmm. I'd have to say:

1. Ichabod and Mr. Toad
2. Make Mine Music
3. Fun and Fancy Free
4. Saludos Amigos
5. The Three Caballeros
6. Melody Time

Originally I'd have put Fancy Free at the top, but the live action interruptions during Mickey and the Beanstalk were kind of annoying. Not necessarily bad, but it took me out of the story.

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"THIS is how you make Nintendo win another generation. Good job, Sony and Microsoft, you're idiots." - Vlado

Where ya moving to?

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"THIS is how you make Nintendo win another generation. Good job, Sony and Microsoft, you're idiots." - Vlado

Glad to see Make Mine Music get some love and Melody Time ranked at the bottom.

I'm moving to Seattle tomorrow. I don't think we have internet in our new place yet, so I'll try and post an update early tomorrow morning before I leave.

lol yeah Melody Time wasn't very interesting, but MMM had a few good numbers. I think that one surprised me the most of the bunch.

That's cool. I hope the move goes well for you.

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"THIS is how you make Nintendo win another generation. Good job, Sony and Microsoft, you're idiots." - Vlado

Kinda unfair to count Ichabod and Toad as a real "package" film since it contains two decent length stories that are told with some amount of depth. For the others, I'd say...

1. Fun and Fancy Free
2. Make Mine Music
3. Saludos Amigos
4. The Three Caballeros
5. Melody Time

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Still smilin'
:>

Beauty and the Bump

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Fennec... :3
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Sorry for all the delays. We should have internet sometime tonight/tomorrow. Hopefully then I'll be able to post an update. There's no way I'm going to attempt it on my phone.

If it's Hunchback, I will riot.

^You and me both, brother.

Especially since I just watched it last night and couldn't spot any of those cameos. :S

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Fennec... :3
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It's during 'Out There', when Quasi's looking down at the streets - that's where all the cameos are. Belle's the most noticeable.

#18 – The Great Mouse Detective (1986)

Best Character: Basil
Worst Character: Fidget

The Great Mouse Detective was one of the few films I hadn’t seen before I went through and watched all the films within the canon. Although it’s not as evident as a couple of the other films remaining, The Great Mouse Detective actually does showcase another Disney character, albeit very briefly. Dumbo can be seen as a wind-up toy in the toy store just before Olivia is abducted.

This film is difficult for me to rank for a number of reasons. For starters, I’ve only seen it once and can’t remember exactly what actually occurred during the film as well as I can some of the others. Thinking back I remember the characters, the atmosphere, and the plot, but I’m sure entire scenes have since been forgotten in my memory. Secondly I’m not very familiar with Sherlock Holmes. The film is obviously based on the series, and even I can identify that Basil represents Sherlock Holmes, Dawson represents Watson, and Ratigan represents Moriarty. I can’t really understand the intricacies in their characters however, nor how similar they are to their respective counterparts. I like each of the aforementioned three though, so let’s start there.

I actually wish Basil were a more popular Disney character. It seems as though he’s often forgotten as a character, as is The Great Mouse Detective itself as a film. He’s funny, witty, and develops fantastic relationships with the rest of the main characters. His relationship with Dawson in particular is excellent, as we are actually able to follow its development from two individuals operating under a common goal to becoming really close friends. With Ratigan it’s obviously a different kind of relationship, but it’s also a good one. It’s made clear from the start that Basil has a lot of contempt for Ratigan. He completely blows off Olivia until she mentions Ratigan, and then all of a sudden he’s wildly interested. To Basil it’s not about helping out a little girl, it’s about besting his rival. In that sense Basil is very different from many of the heroes we see in the Disney films who act so selflessly. Basil places himself first, and it’s a nice change in character from the typical Disney archetype. Due to his uniqueness we get one of the greatest rivalries between a hero and a villain within the entire canon. It’s obvious despite their contempt for one another that there is a great amount of respect for each other as well. So much pride is at stake with this rivalry, I love it.

I also love Basil’s relationship with Olivia. I touched on it earlier, but I think it’s great how Basil is so distant towards Olivia at first. He views her as a child, which she is, and simply doesn’t want her along on the journey. He even tells her so himself. Of course Olivia, who is a decent character in her own right, has the spirit to oppose him and the courage to carry on her search for her father despite Basil’s hesitation. Basil is constantly brought down to her level when they argue. It never seems as though an adult is arguing with a child, but rather two kids bickering at each other. Their relationship is a lot of fun throughout the film, complete with an arc and a touching end product. In essence Basil is the glue of the film. He holds all of the characters together and brings them together in a way that makes this film great. I suppose Dawson and Olivia develop some kind of relationship throughout the course of the film on their own, but their respective relationships with Basil is what really makes the film great.

There isn’t a whole lot I don’t like about this film. I’m not too fond of how most of it takes place at night, but it’s certainly not as dark as The Rescuers. Most of that has to do with the animation, which is actually not all that bad. There are a few segments I thought fell short, but then there are others I felt were really strong. The scene in the clock tower in particular was very well done. It made great use of CGI, and was a very captivating final battle between Basil and Ratigan. The segment where Basil and Dawson are caught in the death trap is also a fantastic segment, and probably one of my favorites from the film. It’s perfectly used to showcase Basil’s thinking process, something not done very well through most of the film. We know he’s very intelligent, but this scene actually shows it to us.

I would have liked more music to be included, but it’s not too big of a complaint. As you can tell by my previous write-up for Pocahontas, a great soundtrack really helps me enjoy the film as a whole. The Great Mouse Detective has “The World’s Greatest Criminal Mind,” but is otherwise lacking in good songs. The song playing when Basil and Dawson are disguised in the bar in particular is pointless in the overall scheme of the film. Nothing is really accomplished in the scene at all, and the song is entirely forgettable. The Great Mouse Detective needed fewer scenes like that and more with Basil being awesome and/or better songs.

Thankfully this film was fairly successful at the box office. Its success convinced Disney to continue driving its animation staff and to continue seeking out new talent. This recipe ultimately culminated in the beginning of the Disney Renaissance with the release of The Little Mermaid. Historical significance aside, The Great Mouse Detective stands up quite well on its own. It has plenty of great characters, good development, and a clear arc.

Next Up: A classic era princess falls!

From: DoctorBIind | #242

There isn’t a whole lot I don’t like about this film. I’m not too fond of how most of it takes place at night, but it’s certainly not as dark as The Rescuers. Most of that has to do with the animation, which is actually not all that bad. There are a few segments I thought fell short, but then there are others I felt were really strong. The scene in the clock tower in particular was very well done. It made great use of CGI, and was a very captivating final battle between Basil and Ratigan. The segment where Basil and Dawson are caught in the death trap is also a fantastic segment, and probably one of my favorites from the film. It’s perfectly used to showcase Basil’s thinking process, something not done very well through most of the film. We know he’s very intelligent, but this scene actually shows it to us.

I would have liked more music to be included, but it’s not too big of a complaint. As you can tell by my previous write-up for Pocahontas, a great soundtrack really helps me enjoy the film as a whole. The Great Mouse Detective has “The World’s Greatest Criminal Mind,” but is otherwise lacking in good songs. The song playing when Basil and Dawson are disguised in the bar in particular is pointless in the overall scheme of the film. Nothing is really accomplished in the scene at all, and the song is entirely forgettable. The Great Mouse Detective needed fewer scenes like that and more with Basil being awesome and/or better songs.

Thankfully this film was fairly successful at the box office. Its success convinced Disney to continue driving its animation staff and to continue seeking out new talent. This recipe ultimately culminated in the beginning of the Disney Renaissance with the release of The Little Mermaid. Historical significance aside, The Great Mouse Detective stands up quite well on its own. It has plenty of great characters, good development, and a clear arc.

Next Up: A classic era princess falls!

It had better ****ing be Snow White.

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From: Regaro_Ukiera |
MWC is god-tier

Guess: Cinderella

Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs would also be excellent. I'm afraid I will have to find you and bop you one if it's Sleeping Beauty.

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The Great Mouse Detective

Doc's Ranking: 18/51
Karo's Ranking 19/49

This movie has some of the greatest character design ever seen in a Disney film, most certainly in the top 5. The supporting cast is awesome as well, even missing the prerequisite one awful character that most Disney movies have.
Why, you ask, is this movie so low, then? Because, sadly, the story is simply not up to par with the rest of the movie. We're stuck with a generic kidnapping/rescue plot for most of the movie, but the biggest mistake is made when they have Olivia get kidnapped. This development adds nothing to the plot (Basil & friends were already after Ratigan to rescue Olivia's father from his own kidnapping), and it prevents any future humorous interaction between Olivia and the child-hating Basil. (I would have liked to see their relationship explored more, maybe with Basil even softening a bit towards her in the end)
Don't get me wrong, this is still a really good movie, it just saddens me to see so much untapped potential.


Best Character: Professor Ratigan

Quite possibly the best Disney villain ever created, Ratigan narrowly beats out the equally incredible Basil to win this award. I can't think of any other Disney villain that's as animated, expressive, and well voice acted as him.


Worst Character: Toby

Probably doesn't really deserve this, but in a character list filled with awesome, I had to pick someone.

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SuperNiceDog is about 20% cooler then the other gurus.

Awww, another favourite goes down =/

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Little town...
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Cinderella, down you go.

Oh hey, Bolt is still here.

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Aww, I lost to SuperNiceDog, Winner of the Rivalry Rumble Guru Contest

I loved the minimal songs in Great Mouse Detective. I found it refreshing to have mostly dialog in a Disney animated flick. It doesn't happen much.

For the sake of giving MWC an ulcer, please don't kill Snow White yet.

I'll guess Sleeping Beauty.

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"THIS is how you make Nintendo win another generation. Good job, Sony and Microsoft, you're idiots." - Vlado

Bumpity bumpity bump

Haven't ever seen Great Mouse Detective - one of the few on the list I haven't. I'm also going to guess Cinderella. It's about time, tbh.