Board 8 > Anagram's D&D Topic - Eight is the Loneliest Number

(+) Yeah! (+)

If you two made your arguments in character I bet that would be worth a lot of rp xp.

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There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out

We did that once and the result was two PCs rolling death saves and dropping into negative HP after about thirty minutes of OOC discussion ruining the scene, and the resulting roleplay "defaulting" to more mind rape.

Which still irks me. The first solution was "mind rape". So drama over the mind rape happens. And then the situation gets brought to the most responsible NPC to deal with.

And she defaults to mind rape.

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Accel R8
(This space for rent)!

From: Accel_R8 | #352

We did that once and the result was two PCs rolling death saves and dropping into negative HP after about thirty minutes of OOC discussion ruining the scene, and the resulting roleplay "defaulting" to more mind rape.

Which still irks me. The first solution was "mind rape". So drama over the mind rape happens. And then the situation gets brought to the most responsible NPC to deal with.

And she defaults to mind rape.

It wasn't mindrape though. Mindrape involves either spying someone's emotions and thoughts, or straight up rewriting them. Looking for the base's location is checking for sensory input that matches what you need. It's like taking someone's prints - they don't get to refuse that, so why would they get to refuse a sensory scan?

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

KanzarisKelshen posted...

From: Accel_R8 | #352

We did that once and the result was two PCs rolling death saves and dropping into negative HP after about thirty minutes of OOC discussion ruining the scene, and the resulting roleplay "defaulting" to more mind rape.

Which still irks me. The first solution was "mind rape". So drama over the mind rape happens. And then the situation gets brought to the most responsible NPC to deal with.

And she defaults to mind rape.

It wasn't mindrape though. Mindrape involves either spying someone's emotions and thoughts, or straight up rewriting them. Looking for the base's location is checking for sensory input that matches what you need. It's like taking someone's prints - they don't get to refuse that, so why would they get to refuse a sensory scan?

If you could set up a scan in such a way that you can literally pinpoint specifically if there is a memory of a base or not, then it would not be such a big deal. However, failing that, it would involve sifting through a person's life which is naturally considered to be a gross breach of privacy.

Prints stay the same unless you purposefully alter them, but the information they impart is specific and socially recognizable as valid ID. A person's memories are as varied as gains of sand on a beach and more valuable than diamond.

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There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out

From: SovietOmega | #354

KanzarisKelshen posted...

From: Accel_R8 | #352

We did that once and the result was two PCs rolling death saves and dropping into negative HP after about thirty minutes of OOC discussion ruining the scene, and the resulting roleplay "defaulting" to more mind rape.

Which still irks me. The first solution was "mind rape". So drama over the mind rape happens. And then the situation gets brought to the most responsible NPC to deal with.

And she defaults to mind rape.

It wasn't mindrape though. Mindrape involves either spying someone's emotions and thoughts, or straight up rewriting them. Looking for the base's location is checking for sensory input that matches what you need. It's like taking someone's prints - they don't get to refuse that, so why would they get to refuse a sensory scan?

If you could set up a scan in such a way that you can literally pinpoint specifically if there is a memory of a base or not, then it would not be such a big deal. However, failing that, it would involve sifting through a person's life which is naturally considered to be a gross breach of privacy.

Prints stay the same unless you purposefully alter them, but the information they impart is specific and socially recognizable as valid ID. A person's memories are as varied as gains of sand on a beach and more valuable than diamond.

And in a world where mind magic is a thing, why wouldn't a person's sensory register be as valid as their fingerprints? That's what I don't understand here - this isn't our world and it's, in some ways, infinitely more advanced. Being able to get the information you need from a criminal with little chance of failure (but still existent, same as with prints but more reliable) is exactly the sort of thing you need when lives are at stake, which they were in our case. When you conspire to rob someone of their basic rights, AKA the rights to live, be free, seek happiness, you forfeit your own. This includes your right over your private possessions, including your senses. I'm not seeing why they wouldn't count as such, honestly.

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

I am pretty sure that any world that is not in a permanent state of fear and tyranny would oppose such mental invasion lest the populace live in fear of thought police and the most minor of slights landing them punishment. Because that is what you are justifying.

And this world Ana has might not be perfect, but it is not that. Not when there are heroes who can oppose such harsh methods while still getting results.

Even the worst of criminals still have basic human rights, and condoning an eye for an eye does not make you any better than them, though you can claim to be on the side of justice. To deny someone, anyone, a right to an unmolested brain is nigh unthinkable. If they consent to it then sure, search, but a mind is not like a static house that can be searched. It is everything that person is and has been.

As I said, if such a search could be tailored to specifically target only the desired memories and completely block any others, then my objections would be much lessened, but free range mental access is just...criminal.

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There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out

Have you even considered that such mental tactics might not be effective, because just as such mental manipulation would be available for the side of 'good', it would be available to the side of 'bad'?

It would not be so hard to arrange things such that a base is entered from a portal and absolutely no indication of where it is is conferred by mental scrying

Or standard memory wipes so that the memory of where the base is is literally deleted and wiped making recovery impossible. Or memory alterations that suggest a different location that is actually a trap. Or the act of mental invasion setting loose a chain of events that kills the person or maybe lashes out at the person attacking the mind.

There are enough scenarios one can envision that would both make the world a much much unpalatable place as well as working against mind reading being a 100% magic godsend.

So why bother.

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There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out

Again, there's a confusion between thought and senses here. Seeing is not thinking. Taking what people can see =/= taking their memories and thoughts. A memory is what you remember about an event. A thought is how you interpreted it. The sensory input if how your body catalogued a stimulus. There's a world of difference here. So again, I ask: criminals have their possessions confiscated if authorities believe they can be used as evidence to convict them of a crime (and there's reason to suggest they are guilty). They also have their fingerprints, AKA a record of their interactions with the world, taken so that they can be used against them. How is one record of their interaction with the world different from another?

EDIT: Because it's much harder to falsify memories than it is to falsify your accounts of what happened. Similarly, it is much, MUCH harder to make your senses lie than it is to make your tongue do so. On this same token, would you be opposed to lie-detecting spells? Unlike a polygraph, they don't have a chance of failure, so long as magical protections are dispelled and you phrase your questions carefully enough. They override free will, because they tell the person talking to you that you are lying to them, with no chance of failure. So, would you argue against them too?

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

I should point out that your argument doesn't function because Zeebs wasn't being charged with a crime at all. It wasn't mindrape, it was illegal search and seizure.

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"[This is perfect. I have always fought with these kinds of cards. You say that I have lost the moment I was dealt? It's just the same as always!]"

From: Sceptilesolar | #359

I should point out that your argument doesn't function because Zeebs wasn't being charged with a crime at all. It wasn't mindrape, it was illegal search and seizure.

The crime was conspiring against reality. And it was a confessed crime, at that.

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

Seeing is indeed not thinking, but imagine you lived in a glass house. Every action you took open to the world to see. It would be a pretty humiliating existence. Sure, the parallels are not exact as there would be more than one viewer here, but with mental probing it is magnified in that any event can be put under scrutiny. Every moment that is seen can be studied. The difference between this and a fingerprint is that one is a much richer and more voluminous collection of data. A print is like a 1kb computer file that says "yup, this is who you think it is". A summation of all of their senses is like every other file, image, video, audio, text. The scale of it sets it apart.

I would argue that it really is not that hard to make your senses lie to you, since some of them literally operate by tricking your brain. You might not have voluntary control, at least not in our world, but you certainly could if we invoke magic. The very means that allow mental probing to be a thing can work to shield a mind or negate the veracity of the information gained.

As for lie detecting spells, as they do not invade the person's mind and have free reign across everything that person has ever experienced, no I am not nearly as opposed to them. I can't say I am a huge fan of overriding a person's free will, but when the stakes are high it is a relatively acceptable option. Certainly when compared to invasive procedures that are not consented to.

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There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out

From: SovietOmega | #361

Seeing is indeed not thinking, but imagine you lived in a glass house. Every action you took open to the world to see. It would be a pretty humiliating existence. Sure, the parallels are not exact as there would be more than one viewer here, but with mental probing it is magnified in that any event can be put under scrutiny. Every moment that is seen can be studied. The difference between this and a fingerprint is that one is a much richer and more voluminous collection of data. A print is like a 1kb computer file that says "yup, this is who you think it is". A summation of all of their senses is like every other file, image, video, audio, text. The scale of it sets it apart.

I would argue that it really is not that hard to make your senses lie to you, since some of them literally operate by tricking your brain. You might not have voluntary control, at least not in our world, but you certainly could if we invoke magic. The very means that allow mental probing to be a thing can work to shield a mind or negate the veracity of the information gained.

As for lie detecting spells, as they do not invade the person's mind and have free reign across everything that person has ever experienced, no I am not nearly as opposed to them. I can't say I am a huge fan of overriding a person's free will, but when the stakes are high it is a relatively acceptable option. Certainly when compared to invasive procedures that are not consented to.

See, I disagree with this. I should note that I am extraordinarily opposed to actual mindrape and mental invasion - if you want to use an example of that, look at what we did with Vivi. It was for a good end, and it might have had good results, but it was still an unlawful act (we'll leave morality aside - you could spend an entire week debating the intricacies of it). I do not feel the same way about taking someone's sensory registry. To me, that is much closer kin to, say, taking a few locks of bloodstained hair off someone to see if the blood matches up with that of a victim, or once again, prints. Your senses aren't who you are, but rather what you did. They're action data, and not thoughts. Scale is not an argument I can respect, because it doesn't really excuse committing a crime. You did it, and now some of your rights are briefly voided. You can't walk away, your possessions aren't yours, and neither should your senses be yours if their information can help society as a whole. In contrast, someone who is innocent and not a suspect would have to give his or her consent before going through a sensory scan, same way you don't jail someone who is a witness. If they refuse, they refuse. If not, you get the information with as few distortions as possible.

Now, you can try to argue that your sensory registry can be warped by your brain, and thus becomes a memory. This, to me, is a much weightier argument, but it has some flaws. Mostly, the flaws I can see lie on defining what, exactly, counts as a memory. Is it anything stored in your brain? Is it something with emotional attachment? Or maybe something else? This probably has to be defined to continue the debate any further. Personally, I err on the side of thinking that a memory is your complete, multisensory recollection of an event, as interpreted by your brain. The bits and pieces of it are the building blocks of it, but not the memory itself.

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

You aren't really going to claim that you wouldn't force sensory information stealing on someone innocent but who's still uncooperative if you thought it would be helpful, are you, Kan?

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Not changing this sig until I decide to change this sig.
Started: July 6, 2005

From: Anagram | #363

You aren't really going to claim that you wouldn't force sensory information stealing on someone innocent but who's still uncooperative if you thought it would be helpful, are you, Kan?

For normal crimes? Absolutely not.

If the world is ending in ten minutes and we need that information or that person dies and everybody else dies with them? Tough question. If there were other ways to get it I'd try them first, but if push came to shove...that'd probably be an invocation of the Watcher's Maxim, I think. It's an interesting thing though.

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

In terms of raw data, I can acknowledge your clarification of what constitutes sensory data as being not inherently prohibitive from being viewed. It is still unsettling with the implications it can result in though, but the issue becomes where these senses end and memory begin.

I tend to view a memory as able to just consist of one sense. They can contain more, but one is probably enough. Like, if a person is deaf and blind and paralyzed and only able to taste, they can still have memories of how things taste. Each bit of sensation is ultimately unique to that person, and subject to misremembering as the way our brain encodes data can be faulty at times. This is part of why I say that sensory information retrieved from their mind has potential to be false (and if a subject knows they are guilty, they will take steps to ensure this information is false if we run with the notion that mind scans are a common enough thing in this world. Crime generally adapts much quicker than the governing bodies that try to stop it.)

So, if there is a distinct separation from memory and sensory input, and if the need is great enough, I could agree to limited searching. But I question where the line would ultimately be drawn as it is a hair's breadth from sensory input to the complete repository of their thoughts and motives and how they think. We could also get into senseory data depicting a crime, with justifiable motivation not being looked at, but that is neither here nor there.

It still reeks of privacy invading, and if the practice is easy enough, too easily applied to any instance of criminal activity which would, as I suggested, lead to Orwellian dystopias and general unhappiness amongst the populace.

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There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out

From: KanzarisKelshen | #360

From: Sceptilesolar | #359

I should point out that your argument doesn't function because Zeebs wasn't being charged with a crime at all. It wasn't mindrape, it was illegal search and seizure.

The crime was conspiring against reality. And it was a confessed crime, at that.

I believe it was already established no such crime exists, and we never charged her with that in the first place.

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"[This is perfect. I have always fought with these kinds of cards. You say that I have lost the moment I was dealt? It's just the same as always!]"

From: SovietOmega | #365

In terms of raw data, I can acknowledge your clarification of what constitutes sensory data as being not inherently prohibitive from being viewed. It is still unsettling with the implications it can result in though, but the issue becomes where these senses end and memory begin.

I tend to view a memory as able to just consist of one sense. They can contain more, but one is probably enough. Like, if a person is deaf and blind and paralyzed and only able to taste, they can still have memories of how things taste. Each bit of sensation is ultimately unique to that person, and subject to misremembering as the way our brain encodes data can be faulty at times. This is part of why I say that sensory information retrieved from their mind has potential to be false (and if a subject knows they are guilty, they will take steps to ensure this information is false if we run with the notion that mind scans are a common enough thing in this world. Crime generally adapts much quicker than the governing bodies that try to stop it.)

So, if there is a distinct separation from memory and sensory input, and if the need is great enough, I could agree to limited searching. But I question where the line would ultimately be drawn as it is a hair's breadth from sensory input to the complete repository of their thoughts and motives and how they think. We could also get into senseory data depicting a crime, with justifiable motivation not being looked at, but that is neither here nor there.

It still reeks of privacy invading, and if the practice is easy enough, too easily applied to any instance of criminal activity which would, as I suggested, lead to Orwellian dystopias and general unhappiness amongst the populace.

Yeah, it's a tricky matter. The details of the execution kind of escape me because I'm tired and this is hard to puzzle out, but I'm positive it comes down to the point where you draw the line.

From: Sceptilesolar | #366

I believe it was already established no such crime exists, and we never charged her with that in the first place.

Not in Sayaburg laws, but it's a clear crime against everybody else's basic rights. If you rape someone outside the jurisdiction of all states, it's still a rape. Same thing here.

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

Zeebs basically in no short words told you that you mind raped her. She did not want her mind entered and it was entered against her will.

Also, just before doing it you basically told Vance you were going to do it and that nobody could stop you from doing it.

Even if ends justify means it was still mind rape. Maybe not on the level of Learette's mind rape, but it was still forcibly entering the sanctity of somebody else's mind.

In either case I'm still irked that basically everything that happened in that cave was made completely irrelevant. If Val was left completely unchecked he was going to do the exact same thing as the plot basically "defaulted" to. Another player's roleplay was basically cast aside, and and NPC hates the group as a collective because of ONE person's actions. This is a recurring thing and it pisses me off to no end because it is even more detachment to the plot and further renders the other characters powerless to do anything about it. One person makes the decisions for everyone, to hell with what they want.

It gets said that "nobody else tries to come up with plans", blah blah, all that... But that's simply not true. It's just that half the time one individual is louder than the rest of the group and gets his way, and the other half the time an individual goes off and pushes things the way they want them to go behind the group's back.

And no matter what happens, the GROUP is collectively seen as in the wrong by the world.

At this point the only reason why we aren't running two separate adventures is because it would be a giant pain in the ass to the DM to practically run two games at the same time. Because there is very little reason for most of the group to support the actions of some of the other members of the group, but we're basically tied into acting together or just NOT playing. And that's unfair.


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Accel R8
(This space for rent)!

Nah, the reason we're not running two separate adventures is that people haven't chosen to split. If you wanted to go for it, no one would stop you.

(And on a different note, I couldn't care less what Zeebs said. People have said the Raelites want to help the world, too. Should we believe them?)

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

I kind of doubt Ana wants to run two basically separate campaigns. Anyway, Zeebs choosing that she wants the sanctity of her mind intact and people being ignorant aren't the same thing.

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Accel R8
(This space for rent)!

From: Accel_R8 | #370

I kind of doubt Ana wants to run two basically separate campaigns. Anyway, Zeebs choosing that she wants the sanctity of her mind intact and people being ignorant aren't the same thing.

We kind of got into this discussion upthread - sanctity of the mind is something so vague that you have to set down the definitions for what you're saying before you get going or it's utterly meaningless. But yeah, I think my point about people saying dumb stuff stands. Just because one of them concerns a person's body/brains and the other one is propaganda doesn't make either of them worth a damn. I mean, what would you expect her to do, not take the high ground when given half a chance? She's a worthless tool whose bonds of loyalty push her into following orders that will damn the world without any questions. She gets no sympathy from me, because there are things that are worth more than any friend, and someone who claims to do good should know about it. Friendship's the luxury of those who live leisurely lives or the blessed meeting of two kindred spirits who share a vision. Someone who wants to do good shouldn't value it over the needs of strangers.

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

To sum up the Kanzaris position: "The power of friendship is stupid and One Piece should be ashamed of itself"

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There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out

You realize she doesn't THINK she's damning the world, and legitimately THINKS she's doing good, right? Even if she's wrong, you are forcibly entering her mind and taking information that she had not agreed to give to you. It's a neutral act at best since it was done for a good cause, but is inherently kind of an evil thing to do.

The original point though, it wasn't something the entire party wanted to do and it just kind of "defaulted" that way. It happened completely in disregard of any other party member's input, even after the huge fiasco leading up to it. This sort of thing happens far too often and detracts from the enjoyment of the campaign. For me, at least.


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Accel R8
(This space for rent)!

From: SovietOmega | #372

To sum up the Kanzaris position: "The power of friendship is stupid and One Piece should be ashamed of itself"

Or more appropriately, 'don't jump off a cliff just because your friends are doing it'.

From: Accel_R8 | #373

You realize she doesn't THINK she's damning the world, and legitimately THINKS she's doing good, right? Even if she's wrong, you are forcibly entering her mind and taking information that she had not agreed to give to you. It's a neutral act at best since it was done for a good cause, but is inherently kind of an evil thing to do.

The original point though, it wasn't something the entire party wanted to do and it just kind of "defaulted" that way. It happened completely in disregard of any other party member's input, even after the huge fiasco leading up to it. This sort of thing happens far too often and detracts from the enjoyment of the campaign. For me, at least.

No, she doesn't. She told us she thought Acey was following a cause she (talking about Zeebs) didn't believe in, she was just going along with it because she was her friend. It's a really dumb position to take. It says that her claims of wanting to do good are lies, and what she actually is, is an aimless sheeple.

The other point is a fair one, though. What's the solution to it, though? I mean, at some point, things have to happen somehow. Someone's going to walk away dissatisfied unless a compromise is reached. What would you suggest Ana do in this situation?

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

It's not about the theoretical, it's about what ALWAYS happens. At this point we seem to either just say "well Val is just going to do it this way so whatever", or through some circumstance the direction of the game defaults to going one way regardless of anyone's input (Saya resorting to mindrape, all of the gods blowing up offscreen, etc). In the case of the latter, sometimes things happen that are just beyond our control and that is okay. The problem is the former, when the narrative just decides to roll the same way that one person was pushing of it's own accord.

This is purely speculation, of course, but sometimes I feel like not just some of the players, but even Ana decides "eh **** it, just give Kanz what HE wants." Again, purely speculation, but nobody gets exactly what they want all the time quite like you do. I'm not accusing anybody of favoritism here now, but like, you keep getting so many things that nobody else does and it contributes to the whole "Valerian is unstoppable, especially to an individual in the party" problem. Which is the other problem, Valerian is goddamn unstoppable if he ever wanted to seriously butt heads with anybody else in the party. It's so mechanical that it's obvious in character.

The big issue is basically this: This has always been "Valerian and Friends" and never "The New World Outlaws Show".

To clarify what I'm talking about, this issue extends not only from combat, but to narrative. The Blade of Kings happened out of nowhere and obtaining it was practically an inside joke in itself. Like seriously, "I had a dream that I beat someone in a duel and now I have this ludicrously powerful supersword just kind of because." There was no big quest to obtain it, there was no rhyme or reason for it, it just happened. You could argue your new super sword was a means to "nerf" yourself, but no. No it really wasn't, not when you're still swinging around a special snowflake ubersword when nobody has anything that is anywhere near that level of BS.

The other thing is the deathlight crap. That's literally just saying "hey Ana, the laws of the world work my way, and I'm going to get upset whenever an imaginary soul-eating doesn't work." Like, really, that's something that has always bothered me and I question why Ana allows silly things like this.

I kind of think that this is coming across more hostile than it should be. And I want to stress I'm not really MAD over any of the issues I have, I'm just frustrated. Valerian specifically seems to get the best treatment out of anybody and it contributes to the uselessness of anybody else that wants to steer in a different direction from him.

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Accel R8
(This space for rent)!

Eh, the artifacts are bad in execution because they're still a sizeable power increase, but there was nothing wrong with him getting them in concept.

I have a serious hatred for Luni so I won't even try to object to that part.

As for Val being unstoppable, as long as I didn't fail my init roll that I have a big lead on compared to Kanz (assuming I'm not providing him with my bonus in a combat situation, I have +8 on him), beating him in combat would be simple. Fly into range, IP, Hellfire Grasp, AP, Shock Spiral. I calculate a total average damage of 173 lightning and 10 fire/necrotic, easily enough to knock him to 0. Add in a Weapon of Speed Elemental Bolt and we're in probable-instant-kill territory (ie below negative bloodied).

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"[This is perfect. I have always fought with these kinds of cards. You say that I have lost the moment I was dealt? It's just the same as always!]"

I guess. I think the major issue I have is the occasion where it slipped into OOC shenanigans. Like, "Oh you're about to do X? Well I'm going to roll my auspicious dice and.. LOOKIE THERE! LOTS OF AUTO-CRITS! Guess if you do this I'll just kill ya." Or, promptly before that, "Oh this isn't going my way? Well I guess I'll just use inviso-dust and run back upstairs and kill her anyway."

These of course only happened once, but they stuck with me, and it solidified the problem in my mind. Val can basically kill anybody he wants to if it came down to it. I don't like the feeling of being basically strong-armed into doing things one guy's way.


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Accel R8
(This space for rent)!

I maintain that either everyone should have an artifact or noone should. Though it does seem like kan is the only one to really have one at any point in time. Like, I had to wait months before Lloyd got his, and when he did he was unable to concordance any use out of it before I started playing Xeno. Here I have the idea for a Xeno artifact, and am going to have to wait months. By the time I get it, it will be almost useless.

Same thing will probably happen should I switch to Amy.

This problem does not seem to happen to Kan, who has had an artifact continuously since...always?

But really, everyone else should have something

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There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out

I agree, though I think the issue with that would be arbitrarily gaining new things "just because" would be almost as contrived as the Blade of Kings appearing out of thin air, or Illumina appearing as a "nerf".

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Accel R8
(This space for rent)!

And yet, it happens for Kan, why not the rest of us?

It does not have to be out of thin air, but any one of a number of reasons. Ancient relics as reward for stopping Ondal for instance. Maybe new ones made by Oa. RP discovery in the coming sessions. Like, I already have a solid idea where Amy's next artifact will come from due to how events have gone for her (A place she has visited on the planes, which would be a decent explanation for the rest of the party too, should they meet up).

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There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out

Artifacts are neat, but I don't want them to be too ridiculous. The BoK was obviously too ridiculous in combat... on the flip side, the Vengatol is pretty ridiculous for out of combat utility. My old artifact was at about the right level combatwise but the Dragonzord was maybe a bit ridiculous for utility.

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"[This is perfect. I have always fought with these kinds of cards. You say that I have lost the moment I was dealt? It's just the same as always!]"

I do want to stress that I don't think "WELL JIMMY GOT A COOL TOY I WANT ONE TOO ;_;" is the adult way to go about this... but, at the same time, giving one player too much power is nonsense, and when they actively go out of their way to steer the game in their direction despite what anybody else wants (and even go as far as to strong-arm their will upon them OOCly. Which happened.), well...

It's bogus.

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Accel R8
(This space for rent)!

Yeah, well, Jimmy doesn't share his toys and Mommy can't seem to afford the latest and greatest so Jimmy becomes the house we all have to meet at. We try to sell bottlecaps and deliver papers, but we just can't earn enough to have what Jimmy does. It isn't so much being childish as pointing out the disparity between players. Ana slips in new artifact without batting an eyelash, for anyone else he responds with 'well I just don't know how to work it in yet'.

Or maybe noone has really presented him with a complete artifact ready for introduction?

Kan is sorta the unofficial artifact maker, and I know I have worked with him to produce things like Vega's dagger and Lloyd's thing.

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There is no shame in not knowing; the shame lies in not finding out

That was quite a stretched metaphor there.

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"[This is perfect. I have always fought with these kinds of cards. You say that I have lost the moment I was dealt? It's just the same as always!]"

From: Accel_R8 | #375

It's not about the theoretical, it's about what ALWAYS happens. At this point we seem to either just say "well Val is just going to do it this way so whatever", or through some circumstance the direction of the game defaults to going one way regardless of anyone's input (Saya resorting to mindrape, all of the gods blowing up offscreen, etc). In the case of the latter, sometimes things happen that are just beyond our control and that is okay. The problem is the former, when the narrative just decides to roll the same way that one person was pushing of it's own accord.

This is purely speculation, of course, but sometimes I feel like not just some of the players, but even Ana decides "eh **** it, just give Kanz what HE wants." Again, purely speculation, but nobody gets exactly what they want all the time quite like you do. I'm not accusing anybody of favoritism here now, but like, you keep getting so many things that nobody else does and it contributes to the whole "Valerian is unstoppable, especially to an individual in the party" problem. Which is the other problem, Valerian is goddamn unstoppable if he ever wanted to seriously butt heads with anybody else in the party. It's so mechanical that it's obvious in character.

The big issue is basically this: This has always been "Valerian and Friends" and never "The New World Outlaws Show".

To clarify what I'm talking about, this issue extends not only from combat, but to narrative. The Blade of Kings happened out of nowhere and obtaining it was practically an inside joke in itself. Like seriously, "I had a dream that I beat someone in a duel and now I have this ludicrously powerful supersword just kind of because." There was no big quest to obtain it, there was no rhyme or reason for it, it just happened. You could argue your new super sword was a means to "nerf" yourself, but no. No it really wasn't, not when you're still swinging around a special snowflake ubersword when nobody has anything that is anywhere near that level of BS.

The other thing is the deathlight crap. That's literally just saying "hey Ana, the laws of the world work my way, and I'm going to get upset whenever an imaginary soul-eating doesn't work." Like, really, that's something that has always bothered me and I question why Ana allows silly things like this.

I kind of think that this is coming across more hostile than it should be. And I want to stress I'm not really MAD over any of the issues I have, I'm just frustrated. Valerian specifically seems to get the best treatment out of anybody and it contributes to the uselessness of anybody else that wants to steer in a different direction from him.

Couple of things here.

A) I did not dictate how I got the BoK. I wasn't expecting to see it that quickly either, but it happened and I wasn't about to say no. Ana rolled with what the dice said there.

B) The reason this is Valerian and Friends is because I'm the only one who's seriously set his sights to take the world as his prize. I didn't like how Rael was unbeatable, so I made sure he wasn't. I want to save Vivi, so I go on quests. I want to reinforce Gwen's collar, so I go and bargain with extraplanar entities. Most of this is because I've decided my player agency is immense and then rolled with it. The solution if you don't like it is to take the reins.

C) Continuing with A, Illumina doesn't have amazing powers. It has nothing beyond a Radiant Weapon offensively. If you want to argue it's an ubersword, I strongly disagree with you here. Just pointing this out because it didn't make me any more powerful than a normal weapon would have in a fight - it just made it much easier and neater to do something outside of it.

(more on my next post)

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

(Continued)

D) The stuff with Luni is an example of what I was talking about in B, player agency. I got room to exercise my creativity, and did so. Then we got the results. I really can't say anything more than that. This wasn't any sort of special toy or anything, but simply giving me room to write fluff.

Really, most of your complaints stem from the fact that I feel like you're not used to leading the way, Accel. Spending so much time shouting at angry (but interesting) people has taught me how to set myself a goal and go for it. The reason why I get what I want so often is that my primary objective is to get X done, not to do it while not offending someone else. It might be a bit disruptive, but the alternative is getting pulled by the nose, and I'm not taking that.

From: Accel_R8 | #377

I guess. I think the major issue I have is the occasion where it slipped into OOC shenanigans. Like, "Oh you're about to do X? Well I'm going to roll my auspicious dice and.. LOOKIE THERE! LOTS OF AUTO-CRITS! Guess if you do this I'll just kill ya." Or, promptly before that, "Oh this isn't going my way? Well I guess I'll just use inviso-dust and run back upstairs and kill her anyway."

These of course only happened once, but they stuck with me, and it solidified the problem in my mind. Val can basically kill anybody he wants to if it came down to it. I don't like the feeling of being basically strong-armed into doing things one guy's way.

CPU has always done what he wanted and not what Kirie wanted. I got absolutely fed up with getting smacked by a fellow player and told him in no uncertain terms I'd pay him back tenfold so he'd drop the bull****. He gets to be OOC, I get to be OOC too.

(more later, LoLing now)

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

I don't even know how to respond to that last point. It sounds like "Well he made me angry so I have every right to kill his character if I want."

No seriously, you don't respond to being smacked on occasion to "LOL I'M GOING TO RUIN THE GAME FOR YOU AND KILL YOUR CHARACTER IF YOU DON'T QUIT IT BRAH".

And I still don't understand why you feel "taking charge" is more important than the enjoyment of your fellow players at the table.

When you do crap like punch the guard in the mouth and nearly incite the wrath of an entire camp of soldiers that aren't the enemy...
Or disregard all the RP going on and jump through portals thereby ruining humans for the only remaining LeShay...
Or go out of your way to tell another player exactly why their plan was "stupid" and piss all over everything they do...
Or accuse players of "derailing" for weeks because of somebody else's internet troubles...
Or throwing OOC tantrums because you aren't getting your way, forcing the DM to literally have his NPCs leap on your blade to resolve the OOC fallout...

You do these sorts of things, and you aren't "taking charge." You're being a dick.


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Accel R8
(This space for rent)!

No seriously, you don't respond to being smacked on occasion to "LOL I'M GOING TO RUIN THE GAME FOR YOU AND KILL YOUR CHARACTER IF YOU DON'T QUIT IT BRAH".

Is that worse than magically preventing someone from playing their character because you don't like what they're doing? Kanz has a fair point here, that gag was getting really stale.

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"[This is perfect. I have always fought with these kinds of cards. You say that I have lost the moment I was dealt? It's just the same as always!]"

Yes it is worse, outright OOCly threatening to kill a player character because you don't like what they're doing is the epitome of dickishness.

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Accel R8
(This space for rent)!

From: Accel_R8 | #387

I don't even know how to respond to that last point. It sounds like "Well he made me angry so I have every right to kill his character if I want."

No seriously, you don't respond to being smacked on occasion to "LOL I'M GOING TO RUIN THE GAME FOR YOU AND KILL YOUR CHARACTER IF YOU DON'T QUIT IT BRAH".

And I still don't understand why you feel "taking charge" is more important than the enjoyment of your fellow players at the table.

When you do crap like punch the guard in the mouth and nearly incite the wrath of an entire camp of soldiers that aren't the enemy...
Or disregard all the RP going on and jump through portals thereby ruining humans for the only remaining LeShay...
Or go out of your way to tell another player exactly why their plan was "stupid" and piss all over everything they do...
Or accuse players of "derailing" for weeks because of somebody else's internet troubles...
Or throwing OOC tantrums because you aren't getting your way, forcing the DM to literally have his NPCs leap on your blade to resolve the OOC fallout...

You do these sorts of things, and you aren't "taking charge." You're being a dick.

As soon as I got knocked unconscious and CdG'd by CPU while you and I were having an argument, the kid gloves were off. From that point on the Law of Talion was on: if you're gonna live by the sword, be ready to die by it. What's good for me is good for him.

As for your situations, points 1 and 2 are me playing my character. I'm not going to apologize for it. The justification was sound, and if you don't like it, tough luck. For point 3, I assume you're talking about the Portalgate? If so, I'm also not apologizing for it because the plan was bad. I told you I had a bad feeling and sure as hell, what I feared came to pass. If you had asked for a better solution I'd have been happy to throw out suggestions, but I don't like watching people set themselves up to die if I can help it, which is what was happening. As for Point 4, that was a jab at how you always say 'meh don't wanna play if CPU isn't here'. So? I feel bad if Scep and Omega aren't there too because I really like the way they play their characters. Doesn't mean I'm gonna no-show if they don't appear. That's just being a humongous douchebag, and I think we can both agree on this. As for the last point, that all emerged because I asked a very specific question and was given a non-answer by Ana. if I had gotten a straight answer we wouldn't have reached that point, and I had reason to be pissed considering that was exactly what I was worried about.

From: SovietOmega | #378

I maintain that either everyone should have an artifact or noone should. Though it does seem like kan is the only one to really have one at any point in time. Like, I had to wait months before Lloyd got his, and when he did he was unable to concordance any use out of it before I started playing Xeno. Here I have the idea for a Xeno artifact, and am going to have to wait months. By the time I get it, it will be almost useless.

Same thing will probably happen should I switch to Amy.

This problem does not seem to happen to Kan, who has had an artifact continuously since...always?

But really, everyone else should have something

This is because when Ana mentioned artifacts I did the work for mine. Nobody else felt like it, so that's why you didn't get 'em. Don't pin this on me IMO.

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: SovietOmega | #383

Yeah, well, Jimmy doesn't share his toys and Mommy can't seem to afford the latest and greatest so Jimmy becomes the house we all have to meet at. We try to sell bottlecaps and deliver papers, but we just can't earn enough to have what Jimmy does. It isn't so much being childish as pointing out the disparity between players. Ana slips in new artifact without batting an eyelash, for anyone else he responds with 'well I just don't know how to work it in yet'.

Or maybe noone has really presented him with a complete artifact ready for introduction?

Kan is sorta the unofficial artifact maker, and I know I have worked with him to produce things like Vega's dagger and Lloyd's thing.

Ding ding ding ding. You want the artifact, do the homework. I was asked to stat out the BoK and did so. I then wanted to do something less broken and wrote it up. It's more like 'Jimmy made himself a new toy and I don't have one like his', really.

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Accel_R8 | #389

Yes it is worse, outright OOCly threatening to kill a player character because you don't like what they're doing is the epitome of dickishness.

No. Just think of it as fair warning. Far worse would be actually going through with it without telling the other player beforehand that they've hit your tolerance level.

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"[This is perfect. I have always fought with these kinds of cards. You say that I have lost the moment I was dealt? It's just the same as always!]"

From: Sceptilesolar | #392

From: Accel_R8 | #389

Yes it is worse, outright OOCly threatening to kill a player character because you don't like what they're doing is the epitome of dickishness.

No. Just think of it as fair warning. Far worse would be actually going through with it without telling the other player beforehand that they've hit your tolerance level.

Which CPU did. Repeatedly. See: Causing me WIS loss, trying to chuck me out of my conversation with Ephestral, trying to kill me in the cave...I was tolerant of the shenanigans, but at a certain point I got tired and put my foot down. Don't try to defend what he did, because it's screwed me over repeatedly, and it's way more ****ing disruptive to play to do what he does with not even a hint of justification than do something you don't like because it's what makes sense to do.

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

I had no idea the WIS loss was going to happen, to be fair, but the rest... yeah. Do try to talking to her IC sometime though, if you want justifications, yeah?

Incidentally, purely out of idle curiousity, what do you think Kirie wants, Kanz?

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"Our turf is justice. It is fertile soil your kind will soon see." -Xenophanes

From: IhatethisCPU | #394

I had no idea the WIS loss was going to happen, to be fair, but the rest... yeah.

Incidentally, purely out of idle curiousity, what do you think Kirie wants, Kanz?

Out. She honestly doesn't care about all of this and I'm not sure why she hasn't taken off to seek Ren yet. I blame Saya tasking us with **** to do every five seconds.

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

As for your situations, points 1 and 2 are me playing my character. I'm not going to apologize for it. The justification was sound, and if you don't like it, tough luck.

Don't you always tell me "doing what your character would do" instead of "doing what your character SHOULD do" is wrong?

Tell me why your character SHOULD punch Shaoite guards and risk invoking the wrath of people that are not the enemy.

Or why your character SHOULD jump face-first through portals and risk ruining the image of your entire race to the LeShay, a member of a race you KNOW is responsible for the near extinction of humans in the future. (And the catalyst for why Rael became what he was. Bare in mind nobody knows if Song being the last LeShay is something that happened in the original timeline or not.)

Those sound like stupid plans to me :/

For point 3, I assume you're talking about the Portalgate? If so, I'm also not apologizing for it because the plan was bad. I told you I had a bad feeling and sure as hell, what I feared came to pass. If you had asked for a better solution I'd have been happy to throw out suggestions, but I don't like watching people set themselves up to die if I can help it, which is what was happening.

And that's fine. I will give you this much, it probably wasn't the best idea. But see, when you go OUT OF YOUR WAY TO BERATE THAT PLAYER AFTERWARDS, you've crossed a line you don't need to be crossing. Are you the sort of person that flames baddies that are actually trying at the end of a League game? Because that's just being the worst kind of person.

As for Point 4, that was a jab at how you always say 'meh don't wanna play if CPU isn't here'.

I've gotten this way mostly because of you. Even though I've been around since the very beginning my significance to the plot is basically nil other than "he's the guy that gets beat up so we don't die". The only fun I have is when I get to roleplay with Kirie because you've made it a point to drag the plot kicking and screaming by the air, everybody else be damned. And you're unstoppable, there's no point in trying to go against your will half the time. Why SHOULD I play if I don't get to have fun?

As for the last point, that all emerged because I asked a very specific question and was given a non-answer by Ana.

I'll grant you that not understanding a situation and getting screwed out of what you want to do because of it sucks. That is a fair point. Unfortunately, you went about resolving it with all the grace of a rhinoceros, and basically played the DM's hand. I'm pretty sure most of us left that session ranging from "annoyed" to "pissed off" at you, it didn't need to be that bad.

I don't really WANT to be mad at you, Kan. I don't WANT to have these issues, but you talk down to me for not wanting to work through them, and when I bring up any point against you, suddenly I'm the "humongous douchebag", or I'm "not taking charge".

I don't know what else to say to you, you want me to try to resolve this, but you're like arguing with a fence post.

Also stop calling it "Portalgate". Calling it that is equally as ignorant as comparing your time travel plan to the Holocaust.

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Accel R8
(This space for rent)!

She has Vance and her NPCs to think about. She's spent enough time on selfish desires that she can't justify leaving them again anytime soon. And both Vance and Saya asked her to help you lot stop Rael. She is the Thrice-damned Seeker Maid, after all. ^_^

Also Ana mentioned that Ren'll happen eventually, and I'm perfectly fine waiting until she does.

--
"Our turf is justice. It is fertile soil your kind will soon see." -Xenophanes

From: Accel_R8 | #397

Those sound like stupid plans to me :/

-
And that's fine. I will give you this much, it probably wasn't the best idea. But see, when you go OUT OF YOUR WAY TO BERATE THAT PLAYER AFTERWARDS, you've crossed a line you don't need to be crossing. Are you the sort of person that flames baddies that are actually trying at the end of a League game? Because that's just being the worst kind of person.

Snipped things a bit because I had no room to reply.

-
You've got to remember that while Valerian tries really hard to do the right thing, he's fallible. The Shao thing was him being really really angry at the fact that Shao was collapsing under the weight of incompetence and taking it out on a symbol of Shao (the officer).

The other thing comes from the fact that the LeShay destroyed his world. You have to remember that, had they not been so damn power-hungry, they wouldn't have genocided humanity and filled Rael and Aluxial with eternal hatred for them. The only LeShays we'd met before were power-hungry, demented douchebags. Valerian wasn't very convinced Song was like them, but the rest of her race was an entirely different story. Can you imagine what might have happened if the LeShay had been alive and just as they were in the old world? Worse, if they were like that and we'd sworn not to tell anyone about their secret hideout? The thought was just intolerable to Valerian. That'd be just like letting Rael back in, in effect, and could not be allowed to happen. Flat out. He needed to know they weren't mosnters, and Song's feelings were not relevant. If a LeShay invasion dropped out of nowhere and caused millions of deaths and incredible amounts of suffering to the innocents of the world, Val would have no one to blame but himself.

(And on a different note, Valerian's final, utopic goal is to create a paradise, for himself and all others. Selfishly, he also wanted to go in to see that proclaimed paradise. He desperately wanted to believe such a beautiful place existed, but his past experiences with how his dreams met the world left him too jaded to believe unless he saw it for himself. There's also that.)


My annoyance afterward was because I felt like I had a lead I wanted to follow for the main quest. Having to go on a lengthy rescue mission put a gigantic cramp on those plans, which is why I was so moody. It's still a fair point that I shouldn't have insisted for so long though.

More on my next post.

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

From: Accel_R8 | #397

As for Point 4, that was a jab at how you always say 'meh don't wanna play if CPU isn't here'.

I've gotten this way mostly because of you. Even though I've been around since the very beginning my significance to the plot is basically nil other than "he's the guy that gets beat up so we don't die". The only fun I have is when I get to roleplay with Kirie because you've made it a point to drag the plot kicking and screaming by the air, everybody else be damned. And you're unstoppable, there's no point in trying to go against your will half the time. Why SHOULD I play if I don't get to have fun?

As for the last point, that all emerged because I asked a very specific question and was given a non-answer by Ana.

I'll grant you that not understanding a situation and getting screwed out of what you want to do because of it sucks. That is a fair point. Unfortunately, you went about resolving it with all the grace of a rhinoceros, and basically played the DM's hand. I'm pretty sure most of us left that session ranging from "annoyed" to "pissed off" at you, it didn't need to be that bad.

I don't really WANT to be mad at you, Kan. I don't WANT to have these issues, but you talk down to me for not wanting to work through them, and when I bring up any point against you, suddenly I'm the "humongous douchebag", or I'm "not taking charge".

I don't know what else to say to you, you want me to try to resolve this, but you're like arguing with a fence post.

Also stop calling it "Portalgate". Calling it that is equally as ignorant as comparing your time travel plan to the Holocaust.

The reason I've dragged the plot kicking and screaming Accel is that sometimes, what the group wanted was plot-breaking in its entirety. Remember the timeskip? Originally, you guys wanted something like a half year of timeskipping. While we had to find the Raelites. On a time limit because if the Doomsday Machine is finished we all died. I was absolutely stunned that nobody seemed to care about the fact that if we did that, we'd all likely be dead at the end or there'd have to be an utterly ridiculous contrivance to explain why they hadn't finished the machine. So I dragged my heels and stopped things to a half until I got my way. Better than getting something like what happened with the flash teleportation ban, except final. Can you honestly blame me for it?

As for the other point you made, that's fair. Unfortunately, I don't have much I can say about it - Vance needs some quests of his own, I guess. Maybe we can work something out and then toss the ideas Ana's way? :-/


Acknowledged on the grace comment. I was just really pissed because we've been getting ****blocked with helping Vivi because of ridiculous stuff since forever. I was just utterly sick of it and wanted to move things forward at last.

As for the Portalgate thing, I call that because it's something that caused a crisis and it's good pun (it's like calling it 'the Gategate'). The idea isn't to offend you, just to have a convenient shorthand because writing 'the portal incident that sent you to the Grey Wastes and took Kirie out of the game' takes way too long.

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Twostuck, Homestuck RPG: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/63360266

Sometimes the plot has to take a backseat to convenience, though... My main motivation for wanting the timeskip disappeared, but I would have rather have had the timeskip and accept an implausible justification.

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"[This is perfect. I have always fought with these kinds of cards. You say that I have lost the moment I was dealt? It's just the same as always!]"