Board 8 > IGN: What Zelda can learn from Skyrim.

(+) Yeah! (+)

http://wii.ign.com/articles/119/1192308p1.html

Even with my "unique" opinion on this franchise, I wholeheartedly agree with every point listed here.

And my god Skyward Sword's box art...yikes!

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This is like comparing Fallout to Jak & Daxter

And what exactly is "yikes" about the boxart

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Zelda can teach TES not to be boring.

I like this. Makes me think of Okami.

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someone made this topic a few weeks ago here saying that TES was basically a more logical evolution of the original zelda than 3D zelda's have been, there's actually a lot of truth to it, OoT kind of bastardized the series and it still hasn't really recovered(did briefly with MM but then they just started pumping OoT clones)

Yes, Elder Scrolls games provide a good example of to make an expansive and open world completely suck, so if Nintendo ever goes that direction with Zelda they can look to TES games as an example of how not to do it.

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KimPilgrim posted...
This is like comparing Fallout to Jak & Daxter

And what exactly is "yikes" about the boxart

Well I meant "yikes" in a good way! First time a full body shot of Link is the focus for a "major" Zelda game's box art!

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also I love SS' box art, much better than WW and TP's, aesthetically nintendo hasn't been this on point with a game in a very long time

Why do they keep letting these awful articles on IGN?

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Liquid Wind posted...
also I love SS' box art, much better than WW and TP's, aesthetically nintendo hasn't been this on point with a game in a very long time

Agreed. Then again, I thought the same of Other M's box art last year. Oops.

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Zelda can teach TES not to be boring.

Never actually played TES much, but I felt like they were adding some good aspects of it to Zelda.

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"God Hand is the ultimate expression of the joy of humanity, specifically the punching part of the joy of humanity."-Shigeru Miyamoto

I agree on the more open world part.

The story of Zelda games has been fine, while the save the princess story is still there it's wrapped in other plots and side plots that enriches it. Skyward Sword is going to expand on Ganondorfs rise to power we see in Ocarina of Time.

Everything else seems nitpicky.

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For some reason at first I thought this was referring to Skyward Sword and couldn't understand what they were getting at.

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Oh God, Ganondorf the Action Game. Would buy twice.

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"God Hand is the ultimate expression of the joy of humanity, specifically the punching part of the joy of humanity."-Shigeru Miyamoto

My real wish for the series is to see Capcom or Team Ninja make a game that stars Ganondorf and takes place in the seven years during Ocarina of Time where Link is sealed in the sages' chamber, essentially chronicling his rise to power. It would have full-on voice acting and play like God of War or Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden or something.

Wait, forget Team Ninja, send the Zelda franchise to Retro Studios instead!

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From: paperwarior | #011
Zelda can teach TES not to be boring.

Never actually played TES much, but I felt like they were adding some good aspects of it to Zelda.

Well, I shouldn't say TES, Morrowind is actually pretty good, Obliviion, well, that game sucks(never played Daggerfall or any other TES). An openworld would be good for Zelda, well a more open world, maybe not as open as the TES world, but Zelda should not take any sort of gameplay from TES.

That would bore me to tears.

From: Sorozone | #003
Zelda can teach TES not to be boring.

The ultimate irony.

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My only experience with TES (Oblivion) was a disappointing one. The sewers intro felt more like a chore than anything fun, and I was basically thrown into this gigantic, uninteresting (to me) world as soon as I escaped. I like a bit more structure and linearity in most of my games. Being completely open-world and free-roaming is great when you're Minecraft, but I like more of a balance from an RPG or adventure game.

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Not surprised at all the objections to IGN's ultimate suggestion. This board generally dislikes TES, after all.

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LinkMarioSamus posted...
Not surprised at all the objections to IGN's ultimate suggestion. This board generally dislikes TES, after all.

*Is getting Skyrim day one*

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From: YetAnothrShadow | #020
*Is getting Skyrim day one*

I as well, but indeed, it does seem like this board in general has a disliking for TES.

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From: LinkMarioSamus | #019
This board generally dislikes TES, after all.

what are you even talking about

you see a small handful who think it's boring or whatever but that's far from most

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Opening up the world might be a good idea. All of IGN's other suggestions are terrible, though.

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LinkMarioSamus posted...
Not surprised at all the objections to IGN's ultimate suggestion. This board generally dislikes TES, after all.

it actually has a lot of people that like it and for whatever reason there's a kneejerk reaction to that appreciation usually where people immediately have to be like NO BETHESDA IS TERRIBLE AND OBLIVION KILLED MY FATHER

I just think it's hilarious that people knock it and say zelda shouldn't imitate its gameplay but then they'll go play pokemon for 200+ hours or claim FFVII as the best game ever

What's wrong with more story and production values?

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From: PrivateBiscuit1 | #009
Why do they keep letting these awful articles on IGN?

Because... it's IGN.

Anyway, I actually kind of like the idea of making Link a little more customizable.

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Because Zelda doesn't need more story like I said?

Reading(Or listening to) countless amounts of dialogue goes great with TES focus on a deep RPG story, it doesn't mean it works for every games. Some games can keep it simple.

Zelda keeps it simple while at the same time having enough side plots and extra dialogues to keep it's story from being copy paste. It's not like Mario or anything where it's literally the same story every time, it's actually overall pretty different normally and it's interesting to see how the story plays out in different circumstances.

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Liquid Wind posted...
someone made this topic a few weeks ago here saying that TES was basically a more logical evolution of the original zelda than 3D zelda's have been, there's actually a lot of truth to it, OoT kind of bastardized the series and it still hasn't really recovered(did briefly with MM but then they just started pumping OoT clones)

This reminds me of something I read where a person claimed that the original Zelda could be seen as an 8-Bit prototype of a TES game. The comparison didn't make a lot of sense at the time, but I can see were they're coming from. Also, I'd hesitate to say it's all OoT's fault when ALttP took away a lot of exploration and introduced an infinitely more confined world. But OoT was the first in the series to make the story its selling point, sure.

I don't think anybody would object to a more open world Zelda, that's for sure.

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That article references old Zelda games pretty frequently -- that's where modern Zelda needs to take its inspiration, not Elder Scrolls. Their overall points, aside from maybe the story and cinematic presentation, aren't bad.

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Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

So, just by skimming the article, it looks like "I Wish Zelda Was More Like Skyrim"?

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most of the article isnt even related to skyrim. Like, they could have titled it "how to make zelda better" and it'd make more sense.

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Whoa whoa whoa, what's with all the elder scrolls hate?

Bad taste ahoy.

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YetAnothrShadow posted...
Because Zelda doesn't need more story like I said?

Reading(Or listening to) countless amounts of dialogue goes great with TES focus on a deep RPG story, it doesn't mean it works for every games. Some games can keep it simple.

Zelda keeps it simple while at the same time having enough side plots and extra dialogues to keep it's story from being copy paste. It's not like Mario or anything where it's literally the same story every time, it's actually overall pretty different normally and it's interesting to see how the story plays out in different circumstances.

I have to disagree with you about how much plot modern Zeldas have. The plots may be simplistic but that doesn't stop them from being long-winded. You gotta wade through tons of blah blah blah from all the NPCs. I'm not saying it works because i definitely don't think it does, but if you're talking about which game has more dialogue to trudge through I'd put Zelda ahead of TES.

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No question Zelda can improve from a story and cinematic point of view. For a game like Zelda which is supposed to be a big adventure, just copying and pasting the same story over and over again has gotten stale. Would love for it to have a more engaging story with actual cutscenes, and characters talking (though Link can stay quiet).

Rest is kinda nitpicking, and wanting it to be more like a Bethesda RPG.

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Yeah, the actual article seems to be saying "make modern Zeldas more like LttP", something I can't really disagree with.

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All the stars in the sky are waiting for you.

LTTP even was a step towards linearity that zelda shouldn't have taken. the first game really had it right conceptually, it just never developed into something like that but with more polish unfortunately. majora's mask oddly enough is probably the closest of the 3D games to realizing a more open world zelda that is truer to the original, but nintendo's big thing for the past decade has been cashing in on OoT's success by imitating that as much as possible.

I'm not seeing how LttP is particularly linear. There's always lots of routes within dungeons, probably more than in the original LoZ.

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All the stars in the sky are waiting for you.

It's funny, their first two points; a bigger, more open world with more stuff in it, and weapon upgrading, have already been confirmed for being in Skyward Sword.

Their other three are story and graphics based, which are not really the focus of Zelda. We had a topic about it not too long ago and long, cinematic cutscenes is not really the way Zelda needs to go. As for the graphics, Wii doesn't have bad graphics, especially not when Nintendo is making a game. And I loooooove what I've seen of the art style here, so no complaints at all there.

so basically, lol ign

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Zelda definitely could use some work with the story. They need to start taking more chances. It's not just making a new and different Hyrule (look, it's flooded! Look, there's twilight!). There needs to be some real surprises and not falling into same-old same-old routines, as well as better substance in the overworlds.

*SPOILERS FOR WIND WAKER AND TWILIGHT PRINCESS, ESPECIALLY TWILIGHT PRINCESS*

Remember Zant? Remember how kind of cool Zant was? He teleports around, he's got story, he's the man behind the twilight, his face is creepy, he's new and different and exciting?

And then it turns out giant phantom Ganon head is controlling everything and it becomes Link vs. Ganondorf for the last... maybe 5% of the game?

Yeah, that sucked. I don't care if Skyward Sword has a new villain. Twilight Princess had a new villain and they retreated back into their comfort blanket at the last moment. They can easily do it again.

Or how about the artwork with Zelda and the sword, and she's stuck in the Castle with the cloak. She's amazing in the intro and early cutscenes. So what does she end up doing in the game? A few cutscenes and helping out a bit in the final battle. Just standard save the princess again. Ocarina of Time done yet again. Tetra was better done, even if she went complete damsel-in-distress after the Tower. And sure, we get Midna who is aweomse, but even Peach has gotten to help Mario out from time to time.

How about those overworlds? They are so huuuuge! ....And so empty! WindWaker's 80% sailing, and there's maybe five islands worth going back to more than once (Outset, the village, Dragon Roost, Deku, and Forbidden Palace) with another five that you need to go to. It's a giant empty ocean with 39 islands that are equally empty.

And Twilight Princess? Gaaaaah. It starts out great. Okay, with an hour-long tutorial that made me never want to start a new file again, but it's this bustling little town with tons of things to do and personality on the edge of this beautiful seemingly expansive forest and if you look at the map, the world is just sooo big. And the game looks like it's going to be awesome!

Even first stepping out into the big empty field is awesome! It's just so huge compared to the forest and it's such a small portion of the map explored! Goron City brings those characters back, and there's plot and story and wow this game is going to be incredible!

...And then it just becomes a dungeon-hopper and all those new, crazy unexplored areas of the map are even emptier. Hell, two of the longest portions (the thin line going from Lake Hylia to the fishing lake and most of Snowdrift) are just minigames. A flying minigame and a snowboarding minigame. All that map use is moot. The desert, the lake, all the upper Hyrule Field sections... they're empty and boring. Maybe 10-15% of the map is utilized for anything other than running on an open field for five minutes to somewhere else. It's horrible.

*END SPOILERS*

These are just my two major gripes. Weapon usage outside of dungeons can definitely be another one (hi Spinner! Hi Dual Clawshots!), but nothing compares to:

1) Riskier story
2) Better utilized overworlds

Can't wait for this game!

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1) Riskier story
2) Better utilized overworlds

Aw, hell yeah.

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About the villain, Skyward Sword is supposed to take place before OoT, so Ganon shouldn't be able to show up at all.

I'm one of the few that liked WW's overworld and I thought TP's was good too. Skyward Sword looks to be combining the two....so yeah.

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I liked them both as well, Hero.

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
I'm one of the few that liked WW's overworld and I thought TP's was good too. Skyward Sword looks to be combining the two....so yeah.

I loved them at first. They were just these whole new worlds to live in, whole new worlds to see. A whole new place with a brand new attitude. Both of them were excellent to great for the first three pendants/gems/orbs/whatever. But after returning to the heart of big bad central for a second time (Forbidden Palace and Twilight Castle) and the world almost completely opens up... it just becomes massively boring except for some of the dungeons and the end game. It's dungeon-hopping through an empty, lifeless world with a mandatory, awful fetch quest (I forget whether or not Poe hunting was mandatory; Triforks are).

TP's overworld looked interesting at first but yeah, it quickly proves itself to be a lot of empty space. hyrule isn't a very believable kingdom with its two towns, OoT and before got a free pass on it(even though AoL had more...) because of technology restrictions but TP is a modern game, it's hard to believe that it came out in the same year as oblivion and okami when nothing about it was up to par with the other fantasy games coming out that year.

*ZELDA SERIES SPOILERS*

Mana's opinions more or less align with mine.

The Ganon bait and switch was utter crap. Zant wasn't given much development to begin with, but he was a totally original villain and we had every reason in the world to believe that our troubles began and ended with him. In a final twist, Nintendo shoves him to the side so we can have a fight with our old nemesis Ganondorf, but ON THE WII THIS TIME GUYS. Mana's right on the money here. Side note: Most of the games that don't involve Ganon in any way are on handhelds, particularly post-OoT. It shouldn't be a surprise that all of Nintendo's risks are put into releases that really don't matter.

And on a personal note for me, the entire story seemed half assed in its presentation. Scenes play out as if the game is crying out to the players "LET US USE VOICE ACTORS ALREADY." Every character minus the big three and Midna were given minimal development and screen time even when they were supposed to be important. Link's friends from the village are mostly static, as far as I can remember. You're introduced to a team of "freedom fighters" who are out to help you on your quest, and the most they get out of that position is a few lines of dialog pre-dungeon crawl and all of them to collectively shoot a bird at the end of the game only to never be seen again. They wanted to introduce new characters and give them some depth, but in the end the depth is an illusion because the game doesn't want to detract from Link and Midna time. They couldn't decide whether the story should be up to snuff with the current generation or just enough to get by like OoT, so they did both and the result was an ugly mess.

*END SPOILERS*

To TP's credit, it had the best dungeon design and boss fights in the series.

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the one thing I do have to give TP credit for though is midna, they figured out how they could give the game a good main character while also keeping link a silent protagonist, they just need to make link not the main character. much better than WW trying to have it both ways, LOOK AT HOW EXPRESSIVE LINK IS GUYS. OH BUT UH, HE'S STILL A BLANK SLATE ON WHICH YOU SHOULD PROJECT YOURSELVES DERP

To TP's credit, it had the best dungeon design and boss fights in the series.

Outside of that Cane dungeon and the final castle, I mostly agree. Spinner dungeon is top-tier.

Ocarina of Time actually has my least favorite overworld out of the five Zelda games I've played, and I really don't see why people are praising its overworld in comparison to the ones in WW and TP. In OoT you just have a big circle connecting everything and that's it. In MM it's the same thing except that Clock Town is at the center of the overworld. In WW and TP, however, the overworld simply contains loads of cool locations, instead of merely being a "hub" of sorts.

Also for me Twilight Princess and Wind Waker have a lot of awesome scenic views in their overworlds which the two N64 games can't hope to match. Also, in Twilight Princess the "huge, empty" overworld is worth it for being able to let out the speed while on horseback, something I really can't do in either of the N64 games.

My Ocarina of Time "hate" has been well-documented by now, but for me it's far more of a victim to its own era and the fact that later Zeldas, especially Majora's Mask and even more especially Twilight Princess, dilute its appeal. This is not to say I can't appreciate anything from the N64: for instance I do not feel the same way about Super Mario 64 because that game feels more like a "completely different animal" within its series, plus the game has more of an SNES-feel to me than an N64-feel.

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On the topic of Twilight Princess, I thought it was the most fun I ever had with a Zelda game. It certainly wasn't the best, but it was the most fun I had with it. If you don't fuss with the storyline, you can really enjoy the game. And the bosses were the best in the game and made you feel REALLY accomplished for beating each of them. Can I say they were epic? Because that's the word that comes to mind.

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