Board 8 > Team Fortress 2 Discussion Topic: Where we lament the loss of wavedash [tf2]

(+) Yeah! (+)

[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]

It's not reaction times, it's timing and prediction!

(why do I keep quoting posts instead of editing it)

--
XD blitz did you warn me? -Angerfist
No, but I'm suspending you right now. -BlitzBoy

Yesterday I experienced my first "airblast rocket to kill other enemy". It was great, dumb soldiers shooting straight at Pyros from afar.

--
Nice work, BOYO! - Atlas
~KF~

Yeah I can airblast pretty well if I am like 2 rocket-seconds away, or if the Soldier is just shooting rockets as fast as possible... other than that I screw up usually

--
_foolmo_
'Oh please, if foolmo made that analogy you'd think it was picture perfect' - Biolizard28

I tend to delay my shots a bit when facing off against Pyros, and the faster LL launcher speed helps too.

That or shotgun when I'm out of that flamethrower range.

--
http://www.yourgamercards.net/trophy/a/NathanDrake90.png

I have trouble blasting the Direct Hit and regular launcher, but the Liberty Launcher? That's just my speed

--
"But...gorillas don't have claws." - Azazel22
"Broccoli gorillas do." - McMoogle

On Heavy? Yeah, they probably are overpowered in pubs. And I don't mean low-skill servers; I mean high population matches. More for the same reason Scout is overpowered in 1v1 and 2v2. Scout flourishes when movement is unrestricted; when they can run past one enemy and sneak a win; when they have lots of space to dodge. On the flip side, the counter to Heavy is "be where the Heavy isn't". But if it's a 16v16 pub and the enemy team has six Heavies? You can't be where the Heavy isn't.

--
Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision

eww 32 man servers

--
XD blitz did you warn me? -Angerfist
No, but I'm suspending you right now. -BlitzBoy

Eww, telling people how to play games they own.

--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOqk_q4NLLI
Not taking it.

lol 32-man servers

--
It will launch for $350 with some Wii Sports s***. I bet my life on it. Damn, that KoolAid guy is awesome - NGamer64

Eww, Biolizard.

Granted, when somebody has a really good feel for their class, they tend to be nightmares to play against because all pretenses of fun are thrown out the window when you are headshot/backstabbed/puff and stung for the millionth time. But the difference between every other class and the Heavy is that pretty much ANYONE can become an asspain with the Heavy because his learning curve is non-existent. Then you factor in that his secondary and melee unlocks exist solely to make his rampage last longer, come sooner, or go Juggernaut on you and shrug off any non-melee attack thrown at him.

Play spy. Or sniper. Or medic pocketing one of your own heavies. Or pyro w/ axtinguisher.

The difference between beginner heavies and expert heavies will become clear very, very fast.

16v16 pub

That's your problem. The game is designed for 12v12. Valve can't balance the game at every player count >_>

--
Oh, a big machine with flashy lights. A big machine like that has me written all over it. Well, okay, it doesn't. But give me time... and a crayon --11th Doctor

Why does Valve keep heavies powerful as much as they can? Because they are central to the game in a way no other class is (besides medic). They're sort of the tank class. Valve does what they have to do to get people to play heavy--make it powerful, because it's not interesting enough to play by default. That's why medic and heavy got the first class updates.

--
People who don't finish their sentences
I'm a Castlevania superfan! Ask me anything!

Play spy.

Hit or miss. Heavies are usually never alone, and all it takes is one person with a microphone to make you useless under normal circumstances. This is disregarding the fact that the backstab detection is as buggy as ever.

Or sniper.

Fists of Steel completely prevent a one shot kill, which takes away the Sniper's only advantage against the Heavy: high damage at a longer range than he can reasonably injure you.

Or medic pocketing one of your own heavies.

You can't say that the Heavy is a counter to himself. Besides, what kind of logic is this? "If somethings broken/imbalanced, just use the broken/imbalanced thing and quit complaining." I follow SSF4 and MvC3. I know where these ideas lead.

Or pyro w/ axtinguisher.

If you're not already dead by the time he turns around, you will be before you take your second swipe. And again, this is assuming you're 1v1ing the Heavy. Those situations are rare/non-factors in a team game.

The difference between beginner heavies and expert heavies will become clear very, very fast.

I've already made my stance on this clear. Nobody cares about how good the Heavy is in highlander/6v6 professional matches, because most games aren't these things.

--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOqk_q4NLLI
Not taking it.

Spark Mandrill posted...
Or sniper.

Fists of Steel completely prevent a one shot kill, which takes away the Sniper's only advantage against the Heavy: high damage at a longer range than he can reasonably injure you.

if you are trying to one shot a heavy you are doing it wrong

--
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lcb35gGx0t1qailr4o1_500.gif
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=57N0YAEJ

You can't say that the Heavy is a counter to himself. Besides, what kind of logic is this? "If somethings broken/imbalanced, just use the broken/imbalanced thing and quit complaining." I follow SSF4 and MvC3. I know where these ideas lead.

Actually, my point here was "bad heavy teammates stand there and watch medic buddy die."

Hit or miss. Heavies are usually never alone, and all it takes is one person with a microphone to make you useless under normal circumstances. This is disregarding the fact that the backstab detection is as buggy as ever.

you kill the guy in the back, not the one in the front.

it's not hard.

Fists of Steel completely prevent a one shot kill, which takes away the Sniper's only advantage against the Heavy: high damage at a longer range than he can reasonably injure you.

If he's using fists of steel, he's not actively killing anyone. Take two shots, or aim for someone else.

--
Oh, a big machine with flashy lights. A big machine like that has me written all over it. Well, okay, it doesn't. But give me time... and a crayon --11th Doctor

Thanks for telling me how to do it right, th- oh, you're just going to be condescending again. And you were so close to being useful for a change.

--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOqk_q4NLLI
Not taking it.

mad

the only time to charge a shot is
1. During set up, for the initial hit.
2. When they have an uber rolling out and you are charging to one shot him as soon as uber ends.

Other than that, you get more DPS from simply quick scoping. Plus, you have more mobility and are more aware of your surroundings.

--
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lcb35gGx0t1qailr4o1_500.gif
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=57N0YAEJ

dowolf posted...
Actually, my point here was "bad heavy teammates stand there and watch medic buddy die."

you kill the guy in the back, not the one in the front.

it's not hard.

Kill feed still exists, and he can still talk after dying. The Heavie's turning speed isn't crappy anymore either, so he can very easily get you.

If he's using fists of steel, he's not actively killing anyone.

How is that even relevant?

--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOqk_q4NLLI
Not taking it.

Aecioo posted...
mad

Off to a bad start.

Other than that, you get more DPS from simply quick scoping. Plus, you have more mobility and are more aware of your surroundings.

You're not killing him if he has FoS out and a medic on him. We know you can shoot the Medic first, that doesn't mean you're stopping the Heavy.

--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOqk_q4NLLI
Not taking it.

Kill feed still exists, and he can still talk after dying.

between voice chat lag and reaction times, there's a good second before anyone says something.

that's all the time you need to get away/kill someone else, especially on pubs.

--
Oh, a big machine with flashy lights. A big machine like that has me written all over it. Well, okay, it doesn't. But give me time... and a crayon --11th Doctor

If he has a FoS out he's not shooting, and therefore being useless.

And it takes about three seconds to kill a heavy with a medic on him, assuming you are the only person attacking him, which you probably are not.

No offense, but if you don't know how much damage a sniper can do just quick scoping headshots, which is damn easy to do against a class like heavy, don't act like you do know. Heavy is by far the easiest class to deal with as sniper if you have decent aim, and I actually prefer the medic to be pocketing the heavy rather than other classes just because I know I can kill the heavy or force him back in a matter of seconds very reliably.

--
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lcb35gGx0t1qailr4o1_500.gif
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=57N0YAEJ

Uh why would you axe a heavy twice? The only reason I sometimes do that is because I'm an idiot and keep forgetting the best way to kill a heavy. It's MUCH faster to just light him, flare him, and axe him once, then to axe him twice.

--
XD blitz did you warn me? -Angerfist
No, but I'm suspending you right now. -BlitzBoy

Spark Mandrill posted...
Play spy.

Hit or miss. Heavies are usually never alone, and all it takes is one person with a microphone to make you useless under normal circumstances. This is disregarding the fact that the backstab detection is as buggy as ever.

Or sniper.

Fists of Steel completely prevent a one shot kill, which takes away the Sniper's only advantage against the Heavy: high damage at a longer range than he can reasonably injure you.

Or medic pocketing one of your own heavies.

You can't say that the Heavy is a counter to himself. Besides, what kind of logic is this? "If somethings broken/imbalanced, just use the broken/imbalanced thing and quit complaining." I follow SSF4 and MvC3. I know where these ideas lead.

Or pyro w/ axtinguisher.

If you're not already dead by the time he turns around, you will be before you take your second swipe. And again, this is assuming you're 1v1ing the Heavy. Those situations are rare/non-factors in a team game.

The difference between beginner heavies and expert heavies will become clear very, very fast.

I've already made my stance on this clear. Nobody cares about how good the Heavy is in highlander/6v6 professional matches, because most games aren't these things.

Whenever I feel like I can't be surprised with how poorly Bio knows this game, he makes a post like this that just floors me.

--
Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1
Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!

I actually haven't gotten my hands on a Tommislav OR KGB. I am sad.



--
http://www.yourgamercards.net/trophy/a/NathanDrake90.png

you haven't gotten KGB yet?

isn't that one of the achievement unlocks?

--
Oh, a big machine with flashy lights. A big machine like that has me written all over it. Well, okay, it doesn't. But give me time... and a crayon --11th Doctor

I wish GameFOX would update quicker so I can purge Biscuit from sight again.

--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOqk_q4NLLI
Not taking it.

You don't need GameFOX to put me on ignore, Bio.

--
Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1
Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!

dinobot19 posted...
Uh why would you axe a heavy twice? The only reason I sometimes do that is because I'm an idiot and keep forgetting the best way to kill a heavy. It's MUCH faster to just light him, flare him, and axe him once, then to axe him twice.

Because every Pyro in the world is capable of doing this, right?

God, you guys are so full of yourselves you forget that not everybody plays this game to win big, nor 24/7.

--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOqk_q4NLLI
Not taking it.

You know what I'd like to have?

A long range Pyro extinguisher like the Jarate or Mad Milk. Shoot it, detonate it, small radius of fire's put out and it does a tiny bit of damage or a crappy debuff against enemies when hitting them. Or maybe it crits against other Pyros, that'd be nice. Multi-use with a good chunk of ammo so it's better than Jarate and Mad Milk for extinguishing, but nothing that isn't a decent side-weapon if Pyros are harassing your team.

--
Pyre GIR (9:26:57 PM): You lack a basic grasp of human nature that can only be learned through living
IamSoCool84321 (9:28:07 PM): ur dumb

Maybe it should be a lubricant bomb.

And then the melee part of the set is a giant shaft that you could use to sodomize the Pyro further.

--
Xbox GT: PrivateBiscuit1
Down with Zhang. Let there be Biscuit!

A long range Pyro extinguisher like the Jarate or Mad Milk. Shoot it, detonate it, small radius of fire's put out and it does a tiny bit of damage or a crappy debuff against enemies when hitting them. Or maybe it crits against other Pyros, that'd be nice. Multi-use with a good chunk of ammo so it's better than Jarate and Mad Milk for extinguishing, but nothing that isn't a decent side-weapon if Pyros are harassing your team.

pyro can already extinguish people, though.

--
Oh, a big machine with flashy lights. A big machine like that has me written all over it. Well, okay, it doesn't. But give me time... and a crayon --11th Doctor

So you don't randomly find keys at all right? You have to buy them?

--
You beat yourself up with your past. Don't blame yourself, blame the world. Blame God. Blame me.

Bio isn't completely wrong here. Sniper is a good counter to Heavy only if there are areas with good enough sightlines on the map, and a Heavy who knows what he's doing is going to minimize his time in these areas, possibly pulling out the FoS while passing through them.

Regarding spies, Bio, people can only talk after dying if gravetalk is enabled, which it isn't by default. Otherwise only people people who are also dead will here them and/or see their text (unless they're on Mumble or some outside program...). Also, to whoever said to stab the person behind the heavy, unless you have the YER, the loud scream is pretty telling. Especially since that particular scream is only used for crit deaths (which include headshots and backstabs). Still, spy is reasonably effective against heavies, though attentive teammates will make your job significantly harder.

Also Bio, the heavy's turning speed was never limited by anything other than your sensitivity.

Demo is also decent for dealing with heavies since his damage output is so good and you don't have to worry about the heavy dodging your stickies/pipes as much.

But yeah, I don't really like where the heavy is balance-wise.

--
Ginhyun
'Cause tramps like us, baby we were born to run

GANON1025 posted...
So you don't randomly find keys at all right? You have to buy them?

You gotta buy them or trade for them. Last year they gave everyone a free key for Christmas, so they might do something similar for this summer update.

--
Ginhyun
'Cause tramps like us, baby we were born to run

VintageGin posted...
Also Bio, the heavy's turning speed was never limited by anything other than your sensitivity.

You sure about that?

I was probably thinking of walking speed. Irrelevant, then.

But I'm not trying to make a point that the Heavy doesn't have counters, I'm trying to make the point that he's way too effective for his learning curve.

--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOqk_q4NLLI
Not taking it.

Spark Mandrill posted...
You sure about that?

I was probably thinking of walking speed. Irrelevant, then.

Yeah, you were probably thinking about walking speed.

But I'm not trying to make a point that the Heavy doesn't have counters, I'm trying to make the point that he's way too effective for his learning curve.

I agree with you on this.

--
Ginhyun
'Cause tramps like us, baby we were born to run

I have a spare soda popper if anyone wants to trade one of the new weapons for it.

--
Ginhyun
'Cause tramps like us, baby we were born to run

I have a spare Enforcer, if you don't have one of those.

--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOqk_q4NLLI
Not taking it.

Sure. Add me.

Steam username: Ginhyun

wait, nevermind, you're already on my friendslist

--
Ginhyun
'Cause tramps like us, baby we were born to run

Sick, thanks.

--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOqk_q4NLLI
Not taking it.

Spark Mandrill posted...
dinobot19 posted...
Uh why would you axe a heavy twice? The only reason I sometimes do that is because I'm an idiot and keep forgetting the best way to kill a heavy. It's MUCH faster to just light him, flare him, and axe him once, then to axe him twice.

Because every Pyro in the world is capable of doing this, right?

God, you guys are so full of yourselves you forget that not everybody plays this game to win big, nor 24/7.

.....shooting a flare into a heavy point blank, then meleeing him, takes more skill then lining up two melee hits? I'm not going to pretend I'm perfect, I miss the second axe hit all the time, but usually when I shoot a flare, I have a higher rate of success. It's just something I forget ALL THE TIME

--
XD blitz did you warn me? -Angerfist
No, but I'm suspending you right now. -BlitzBoy

metroid composite | Posted 7/2/2011 10:42:35 AM | message detail | quote
But if it's a 16v16 pub and the enemy team has six Heavies?

Jesus, is this what we're actually discussing? We might as well be discussing the balance of 6-player Smash Bros.

Some other Heavy topics:

On GRU: They have to be pulled out to move faster, which requires a bunch of time, and you still move slower than the 100% speed classes (sniper/engineer/spy/pyro). The GRU is not for pursuit - it is for covering the long distance from spawn to fighting quicker, and for covering some other shorter distances a little quicker, but its use in the middle of combat is somewhat limited honestly. It is good, but it is not the cure-all for heavy's slow speed that some are suggesting. Also, you cannot use both this and the Fists of Steel.

On Fists of Steel: You have to have them out to be protecting yourself from ranged attacks - same thing as the GRU applies, weapon switching means even longer before you can react to a threat. You can be defending yourself with them, or you can be shooting, but not both at once. It helps somewhat against snipers, but an experienced heavy just knows what areas to not stand in in the first place anyway. Also, when you have the FoS out, you are almost instantly murdered by any melee attack thrown your way. Also, they cannot be used with the GRU. So it's one or the other. Heavy can't cover all his glaring weaknesses at once.

On the learning curve: Yeah, again, when people are dumb and run into your line of fire without a care in the world, heavy's friggin' easy. I will admit that heavy has a higher floor than other classes - someone picking up heavy for the first time is going to be more effective than other classes. But I would assume that people don't stay s*** at the game forever, and when you actually need to get skilled with heavy it's not that easy. You have to learn to compensate for his incredible slowness, his inability to react quickly to unexpected threats, his weapon's inability to get past cover, and his inability to retreat once committed to a battle. You have to learn things like the best places to position yourself for offense and defense, watching the state of battle and knowing when to commit to a fight and when to stay away, things like that. Just because it doesn't require twitch aiming and jumping around doesn't mean it's easy to play.

On the fact that people are s*** at this game: Well yeah, maybe they should stop being stupid and running right into the heavy like idiots. Yes, I am suggesting that. Nerf heavy and he becomes worthless against people who are good, and that's no good either.

On being able to run away from heavy just about 100% of the time: Yes, it's true! Heavy is f***ing slow and cannot chase you! I would not lie. If you find this to be untrue, one of two things happened: you pushed up too far and walked into heavy's territory, which is your fault, or you ran around a blind corner and got surprised, which does happen, but it's just as bad to get surprised by a soldier or a demoman or even a scout or pyro. You're going to die either way if you're not aware of the situation. It happens sometimes.

On the Tomislav: It might be a little broken, yeah. I'll concede on this. Still, not as bad as before it was nerfed. That was really bad.

On stabbing heavies: Yes, it works, and it's terribly frustrating. Just don't cloak right behind me, I listen for that.

On the minimal effort for maximum input of Heavy in pubs: Demoman's easier. Heavy is my most played, Demoman is my least played. Demoman is still easier. You think people are bad about walking into heavy's line of fire? Try watching people run blindly into sticky traps. You'll be amazed.

Flame-flare-axe only does just under 300 damage. If the Heavy is at all overhealed, you will not kill him. If he has a Medic on him and is only partly overhealed, flame-axe-axe will kill him, but not flame-flare-axe. Much more reliable in that sense imo.

--
_foolmo_
'I mean, what does electricity have to do with math besides calculators?' - ZeldaFreak29

Admittedly pyros are pretty much f***ed by heavies, but pyros are f***ed by a lot of things quite frankly.

also, what is the IP of dubel's new server?

--
_foolmo_
'Oh please, if foolmo made that analogy you'd think it was picture perfect' - Biolizard28

biolizardfan posted...
Flame-flare-axe only does just under 300 damage. If the Heavy is at all overhealed, you will not kill him. If he has a Medic on him and is only partly overhealed, flame-axe-axe will kill him, but not flame-flare-axe. Much more reliable in that sense imo.

Usually you need 3 axes on an overhealed heavy from my experience.

And "whoops" forgot to favourite his server, I'll get it next time I play in it

--
XD blitz did you warn me? -Angerfist
No, but I'm suspending you right now. -BlitzBoy

From: Paratroopa1 | #146
Admittedly pyros are pretty much f***ed by heavies, but pyros are f***ed by a lot of things quite frankly.

Pyros are f***ed by most of the game, to be honest.

--
http://www.yourgamercards.net/trophy/a/NathanDrake90.png

Holy **** there's an LL pub server again

No more damn SourceOP and Reddit servers for me!

--
_foolmo_
'and out of the blue and completely unprovoked came foolmo and his insult' - Anagram