Poll of the Day > The silent crisis of male suicide.

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LeetCheet
12/12/21 6:05:53 AM
#1:


https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/talking-about-men/202109/the-silent-crisis-male-suicide


Men account for over 75 percent of suicides, and the rate of male suicide has risen in recent decades.

The statistics suggest that existing approaches to male suicide are deficient.

New, male-friendly suicide prevention measures must be adopted to help halt the crisis.


This is horrible.

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Californian
12/12/21 6:09:38 AM
#2:


Yes suicide is a tragic thing. I think all people get treated hatefully in life and I think its fair to point out that a lot of ways that men are harmed are stigmatized by society so they dont feel safe being open about their feelings. It takes some amount of courage and some just get overtaken by their pain.

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UltraIchi
12/12/21 6:23:25 AM
#3:


A lot of people think helping suicidal people means reassuring them they have reasons to live. That's actually useless, offensive even.

Suicidal people actually appreciate it more when you validate the way they feel (obviously not to the extent of encouraging suicidal behavior). Knowing they're not the only one who's aware of their struggle can help a lot

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Californian
12/12/21 6:34:03 AM
#4:


^ this is very well said

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UnMead
12/12/21 7:23:24 AM
#6:


Might want to delete you post the mods will go after you for the above post. Its a zero tolerance thing when it comes to suicidal inclinations.

I think its always worth it to try. Eventually youll surprise yourself or accidentally succeed. Sometimes its just RNG

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#7
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UnMead
12/12/21 8:12:08 AM
#8:


[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


obviously not, no

its worth it to keep trying to live

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EchoBaz
12/12/21 8:28:44 AM
#9:


LeetCheet posted...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/talking-about-men/202109/the-silent-crisis-male-suicide

This is horrible.

Well this is refreshing. I expected you spout a bunch of incel talking points, and was gonna block and report you and move on.

Yeah, Male suicide is indeed a massive problem, and I indeed wish more was done about it. Thank you for making a topic about without using it as an excuse to preach bigotry.

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UnMead
12/12/21 8:31:22 AM
#10:


EchoBaz posted...
Well this is refreshing. I expected you spout a bunch of incel talking points, and was gonna block and report you and move on.

Yeah, Male suicide is indeed a massive problem, and I indeed wish more was done about it. Thank you for making a topic about without using it as an excuse to preach bigotry.

yeah he isnt expressing anything like that in this topic so why even bring that kind of toxicity up. Let it go

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The_tall_midget
12/12/21 10:11:59 AM
#11:


And yet, much like homelessness, most of the available resources are for women victims, shocking nobody.

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shadowsword87
12/12/21 10:27:47 AM
#12:


I'm curious about attempts of suicide for men vs women.
Is that a similar amount, or is it still weighted?
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adjl
12/12/21 10:49:32 AM
#13:


shadowsword87 posted...
I'm curious about attempts of suicide for men vs women.
Is that a similar amount, or is it still weighted?

My understanding is that the attempt rate is fairly similar, but men are more likely to succeed, often because they just shoot themselves instead of trying something less messy. I don't know exactly how they compare, though, and it wouldn't surprise me if there is still a significant difference in attempt rate.

The_tall_midget posted...
And yet, much like homelessness, most of the available resources are for women victims, shocking nobody.

Most suicide resources aren't really gendered. The issue is more that there's a stigma around men accessing mental health resources in general, because toxic masculinity's a bitch.

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shadowsword87
12/12/21 10:59:20 AM
#14:


adjl posted...
My understanding is that the attempt rate is fairly similar, but men are more likely to succeed, often because they just shoot themselves instead of trying something less messy. I don't know exactly how they compare, though, and it wouldn't surprise me if there is still a significant difference in attempt rate.

That's what I'm thinking as well. There's a similar result with greenlands suicide rates.
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RoboXgp89
12/12/21 11:04:59 AM
#15:


https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/6/3/9/AAaNf_AACsB_.jpg

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DrPrimemaster
12/12/21 11:28:51 AM
#16:


adjl posted...
My understanding is that the attempt rate is fairly similar, but men are more likely to succeed, often because they just shoot themselves instead of trying something less messy. I don't know exactly how they compare, though, and it wouldn't surprise me if there is still a significant difference in attempt rate.

Most suicide resources aren't really gendered. The issue is more that there's a stigma around men accessing mental health resources in general, because toxic masculinity's a bitch.

Indeed, three of the core arguments of my new book Mens Issues and Mens Mental Health (Springer, 2021) are that existing approaches to male suicide prevention (and mens mental health per se) inadequately address the issue, as they:
  1. Too narrowly focus on the singular concept of masculinity, lacking any peripheral vision to examine important aspects of adverse social context experienced by many men.



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#17
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LinkPizza
12/12/21 11:38:24 AM
#18:


And then theres Switzerland with their new legal suicide pods

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KodyKeir
12/12/21 12:10:02 PM
#19:


Prescribed daily doses of high concentrate CBD for pain relief has really helped. Flooding that cut off BC lower mainland from the rest of Canada has meant supply chain delays while they rebuild the road; this has been a rough month as a result.

Therapy would be nice but I live in a rural area where the doc only visits once a week (if that) and only really provides emergency triage for those in serious need, so I haven't been able to see anyone since the pandemic started. Reaching actual help means travelling 100Km or more to get to a major city centre and telehealth is out because some of my issues can't be talked about outside of a SCIF

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Zeus
12/12/21 12:12:57 PM
#20:


adjl posted...
My understanding is that the attempt rate is fairly similar, but men are more likely to succeed, often because they just shoot themselves instead of trying something less messy. I don't know exactly how they compare, though, and it wouldn't surprise me if there is still a significant difference in attempt rate.

Or, more likely, that the intent to die is a lot stronger in males. Both genders have access to the EXACT same resources, yet men choose more lethal attempts -- jumping from high buildings, stronger poisons, guns, etc -- as opposed to taking extra sleeping pills where the suicide victim can survive even without intervention of a third-party.

Granted, a secondary factor is likely the amount of care shown to females vs males, where intervention is more likely when it comes to women.

adjl posted...
Most suicide resources aren't really gendered.

There are far more gendered support networks for women even before you get to suicide support, which makes this argument wildly disingenuous. And those other networks are generally much better at providing support than the many of the bare-bones suicide-specific ones.

adjl posted...
The issue is more that there's a stigma around men accessing mental health resources in general, because toxic masculinity's a bitch.

Which is a lazy excuse to handwave issues while simultaneously blaming the victims. The real disparity is in the level of care for men, which is unsurprising considering you have elected politicians insisting that men are disposable and then countless people -- even on this board -- toxically trying to justify those misandrist remarks. It gets even worse when you realize the politicians making those remarks are the SAME ones pushing the completely disingenuous (or outright fallacious) "toxic masculinity" nonsense.

LinkPizza posted...
And then theres Switzerland with their new legal suicide pods

Which is unsurprising given that they were at the forefront of the eugenics movement and an inspiration to genocidal madmen the world over.

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Revelation34
12/12/21 12:32:48 PM
#21:


adjl posted...
The issue is more that there's a stigma around men accessing mental health resources in general, because toxic masculinity's a bitch.


This makes no sense whatsoever.

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Blightzkrieg
12/12/21 12:34:14 PM
#22:


adjl posted...
My understanding is that the attempt rate is fairly similar, but men are more likely to succeed, often because they just shoot themselves instead of trying something less messy. I don't know exactly how they compare, though, and it wouldn't surprise me if there is still a significant difference in attempt rate.
This doesn't make sense at all, if they were shooting themselves the crisis would be anything but silent.

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adjl
12/12/21 1:58:08 PM
#23:


LinkPizza posted...
And then theres Switzerland with their new legal suicide pods

There's a very important difference between suicide due to mental health issues and suicide as a means of deciding when somebody wants to die. Being able to die on your own terms is a very important part of personal autonomy that's been neglected until quite recently because of how much suicide upsets people. The challenge, then, is separating competent wishes to die from ones that are due to mental illness.

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adjl
12/12/21 2:14:36 PM
#24:


Zeus posted...
Which is a lazy excuse to handwave issues while simultaneously blaming the victims.

Why do you have such difficulty understanding that toxic masculinity is something that all of society is responsible for, not something that men alone do? Men can be victims of toxic masculinity just as much as everyone else can, as is completely the case here. Blaming toxic masculinity for something does not men blaming men, it means blaming the ways men are expected to act.

Masculinity=The ideals and attitudes defining how men are expected to behave
Toxic masculinity= Ideals for men's behaviour that are harmful or otherwise toxic

It's very simple. This is how every single adjective in the English language works. Calm down, you're not being persecuted.

Revelation34 posted...
This makes no sense whatsoever.

In this particular case, the toxic aspect of masculinity that's relevant is the attitude that men shouldn't have emotions that they can't control or talk about their feelings. Those that do are seen as weak or otherwise inferior, so there's considerable hesitation from men to access mental health resources because they feel that they need to "tough it out" or "man up" to meet society's expectations.

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wolfy42
12/12/21 2:30:36 PM
#25:


LinkPizza posted...
And then theres Switzerland with their new legal suicide pods

If I just wasn't so depressed and unmotivated I would move to Switzerland.

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HornedLion
12/12/21 2:37:21 PM
#26:


The_tall_midget posted...
And yet, much like homelessness, most of the available resources are for women victims, shocking nobody.

Its that damn patriarchys fault.

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keyblader1985
12/12/21 2:43:38 PM
#27:


I expected PotD of all places to understand the concept of toxic masculinity. Apparently not, given adjl's need to clarify.

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UltraIchi
12/12/21 2:52:58 PM
#28:


shadowsword87 posted...
I'm curious about attempts of suicide for men vs women.
Is that a similar amount, or is it still weighted?
Women attempt more. However they're more likely to OD than shoot themselves (could be due to inaccess, vanity, or fear), increasing the time for medical intervention. They're also more likely to communicate their plans via social media or what have you, increasing the likelihood a loved one can help in time

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DrPrimemaster
12/12/21 10:38:38 PM
#29:


So did you not want to read the part about the fact that the narrow lens on "toxic masculinity" might not be helpful in lowering the suicide rate?

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Metalsonic66
12/12/21 10:49:53 PM
#30:


Revelation34 posted...
This makes no sense whatsoever.
What part doesn't make sense

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DrPrimemaster
12/12/21 10:56:18 PM
#31:


adjl posted...
Why do you have such difficulty understanding that toxic masculinity is something that all of society is responsible for, not something that men alone do? Men can be victims of toxic masculinity just as much as everyone else can, as is completely the case here. Blaming toxic masculinity for something does not men blaming men, it means blaming the ways men are expected to act.

Masculinity=The ideals and attitudes defining how men are expected to behave
Toxic masculinity= Ideals for men's behaviour that are harmful or otherwise toxic

It's very simple. This is how every single adjective in the English language works. Calm down, you're not being persecuted.

In this particular case, the toxic aspect of masculinity that's relevant is the attitude that men shouldn't have emotions that they can't control or talk about their feelings. Those that do are seen as weak or otherwise inferior, so there's considerable hesitation from men to access mental health resources because they feel that they need to "tough it out" or "man up" to meet society's expectations.

Suicide rates have increased from 2006-2017, is toxic masculinity higher now?

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chelsea_wtf
12/12/21 11:26:41 PM
#32:


i read your book dr metroid and i think its quite facile. F+

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KodyKeir
12/12/21 11:54:03 PM
#33:


DrPrimemaster posted...
Suicide rates have increased from 2006-2017, is toxic masculinity higher now?

Yes.

For some reason when we collectively said we should address toxic masculinity, many males took it as a personal attack against them, and then went on a campaign to recruit others to their cause.

I would even go so far as to say there is a strong correlation between the rise in toxic masculinity and the rise of nationalist movements.

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Revelation34
12/12/21 11:58:44 PM
#34:


Metalsonic66 posted...

What part doesn't make sense


There's no such thing for one. If you do believe it exists then toxic masculinity is the way men actually act, not stigma behind the idea of it.

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ReturnOfFa
12/13/21 12:22:42 AM
#35:


I believe that there are attributes reinforced in males that are toxic. Obviously not all males are toxic, and obviously females can be toxic too. These 'negative' traits have unfortunately been gendered as masculine, but I believe it still worth addressing.

Can you empathize with certain elements of that @Revelation34 ? If not, all good. Suicide and depression are definitely a silent killer of men, and that's part of the issue - silence. A male tendency, that is not inherent, but learned (in my opinion), to put forward an attitude of resiliency. A tendency to not communicate emotion - and hell, maybe that IS a problem of all people. Kids learn it from their dads and their moms. From *cough* (sorry), all genders.

Still, I have observed a lot of men that have more difficulty discussing their emotions. It doesn't mean they aren't capable, but I think a lot more communication can help men. Yes, there is a suicide crisis among men. I don't think discussing 'toxic masculinity' puts the blame on the victim. I think it is discussing something the victim has sadly been victimized by - the male tendency to defer emotional communication and project strength. I know some of this is circumstantial evidence from me, but it seems to pan out in the data that we all share a concern regarding.

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ReturnOfFa
12/13/21 12:25:53 AM
#36:


if people are offended by the term 'toxic masculinity', I think we know who is winning the 'culture war'.

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UnMead
12/13/21 12:33:37 AM
#37:


i think its fair that there is plenty of feminine toxicity rampant in society as well. People of all types can be just fucking awful to each other.

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UnMead
12/13/21 12:33:52 AM
#38:


*fair to say

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ReturnOfFa
12/13/21 12:43:28 AM
#39:


UnMead posted...
i think its fair that there is plenty of feminine toxicity rampant in society as well. People of all types can be just fucking awful to each other.
Absolutely. I think that's part of the reason that people balk at the term?

And I mean, you could call it 'toxic femininity' or argue about whether it should be called 'toxic masculinity' when applied to females or not, and I'm sure that makes people pissed off/confused. I hope that people that disagree with the ideas of 'toxic masculinity' can at least realize that those that believe it exists in some capacity still acknowledge that anyone can be toxic, and that we need to help everyone in preventing suicide.

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BlackScythe0
12/13/21 12:54:14 AM
#40:


ReturnOfFa posted...
if people are offended by the term 'toxic masculinity', I think we know who is winning the 'culture war'.

I think the issue of toxic masculinity is that it means different things to different people.

Like a quick example for me was the other day when someone posted a twitter comment from a no-name republican running for office. Dude says women shouldn't be part of the draft since they need to be moms. So ignoring the obvious "women belong in domestic roles / at home" that is fairly common on that side of the aisle it had the "toxic masculinity" aspect that was "men can't/shouldn't be nurturing".

Often times discussion of "toxic masculinity" is left vague, sometimes deliberately which leaves people trying to figure out exactly what is being inferred.
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KodyKeir
12/13/21 1:00:14 AM
#41:


Maybe we should start calling it Toxic Humanity, and ignored the gender issue entirely.

Though I am pretty sure modern right wing will still feel personally attacked by the term.

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keyblader1985
12/13/21 1:06:39 AM
#42:


Yeah, it's starting to feel very familiar the way people have a kneejerk misinterpretation and feel offended by these things, no matter what they're called.

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Metalsonic66
12/13/21 1:06:49 AM
#43:


Revelation34 posted...
There's no such thing for one. If you do believe it exists then toxic masculinity is the way men actually act, not stigma behind the idea of it.
No such thing as toxic masculinity?

lol

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UnMead
12/13/21 1:07:53 AM
#44:


Honestly if we stop stigmatizing mental health so harshly a lot more people would get help I think and learn better ways to cope. A lot of people are talking about mental health now which is a step in the right direction but there is still an overwhelming amount of ignorance and judgement.

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UltraIchi
12/13/21 7:13:29 AM
#45:


Loaded statement I guess but I wouldn't be surprised if a war or several could've been avoided if so many men weren't possessed by their egos.

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adjl
12/13/21 9:34:53 AM
#46:


Revelation34 posted...
There's no such thing for one. If you do believe it exists then toxic masculinity is the way men actually act, not stigma behind the idea of it.
adjl posted...
Masculinity=The ideals and attitudes defining how men are expected to behave
Toxic masculinity= Ideals for men's behaviour that are harmful or otherwise toxic

It's very simple. This is how every single adjective in the English language works.

Yep.

ReturnOfFa posted...
I believe that there are attributes reinforced in males that are toxic. Obviously not all males are toxic, and obviously females can be toxic too. These 'negative' traits have unfortunately been gendered as masculine, but I believe it still worth addressing.

The fact that they've been gendered as masculine is the core issue here. Fundamentally, toxic masculinity is a matter of encouraging and/or permitting toxic behaviours and attitudes because they've been gendered as "manly," and that justifies them in many people's eyes. That's stupid. Everyone needs to stop doing that. Good and bad behaviours don't need to be gendered at all. People talk about how "toxic masculinity" is such a terrible concept because it punishes men for being assertive and confident, but being assertive and confident are useful traits regardless of how many penises you have. So is having the humility and tact to recognize when what you think is being assertive and confident is actually just ignoring everyone else's ideas and being an asshole, a nuance which "men should be confident and assertive" ignores (which, in turn, is a toxic behaviour).

UnMead posted...
i think its fair that there is plenty of feminine toxicity rampant in society as well. People of all types can be just fucking awful to each other.

It's important to note, however, that "feminine toxicity" does mean "women doing bad things," which is distinct from "toxic femininity." Toxic femininity is more often just called "misogyny" in modern culture, since it entails stuff like "women should just raise their children instead of trying to have careers." There's actually a lot of overlap between toxic masculinity and toxic femininity, such as that example somebody else gave of that nutjob saying "women should stay home with the kids and men should go die in war because they're expendable." Anyone trying to enforce toxic gender roles is generally dipping a little into both pots.

KodyKeir posted...
Maybe we should start calling it Toxic Humanity, and ignored the gender issue entirely.

There's merit in that, but the gendering is actually the bulk of the issue, and addressing the problem has to include recognizing that gendering the behaviours doesn't actually make them any better or worse. I don't know how it could be solved by totally ignoring the gender issue; it's necessary to at least confront how stupid and counterproductive the gendering is.

KodyKeir posted...
Though I am pretty sure modern right wing will still feel personally attacked by the term.

I mean, that's a given. Whatever you call it, the fact remains that trying to address the issue of toxic masculinity means saying that these behaviours that are traditionally considered masculine (to which the modern right tends to cling quite aggressively) are bad and should be avoided by everyone. Conservatives generally don't like being told that they need to change.

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Revelation34
12/13/21 9:48:37 AM
#47:


Metalsonic66 posted...

No such thing as toxic masculinity?

lol


It doesn't exist.

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keyblader1985
12/13/21 10:14:55 AM
#48:


I don't think we have enough crayons, adjl.

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BUMPED2002
12/13/21 11:17:51 AM
#49:


The silent crisis period of mental illness in this country has gone unnoticed and still does. The question I have is what is causing so much anguish and mental anxiety among Americans. There are people who live in war torn countries who do not suffer the mental illnesses we see in America so what is causing it.

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UnMead
12/13/21 11:39:50 AM
#50:


Revelation34 posted...
It doesn't exist.



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ReturnOfFa
12/13/21 11:43:53 AM
#51:


Revelation34 posted...
It doesn't exist.
Kind of sad you didn't bother reading anything I had to write as I was trying to discuss a middleground.

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