Current Events > can someone help me understand how 'mechanical time' is specific to 'whiteness'?

(+) Yeah! (+)

In Hartford, Moore directed us to a page in our training booklets: a list of white values. Along with The Kings English rules, objective, rational, linear thinking and quantitative emphasis, there was work before play, plan for future and adherence to rigid time schedules. Moore expounded that white culture is obsessed with mechanical time clock time and punishes students for lateness. This, he said, is but one example of how whiteness undercuts Black kids. The problems come when we say this way of being is the way to be. In school and on into the working world, he lectured, tremendous harm is done by the pervasive rule that Black children and adults must bend to whiteness, in substance, style and format.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/15/magazine/white-fragility-robin-diangelo.html?action=click&module=Editors%20Picks&pgtype=Homepage

is this trying to argue that punctuality is a "white" thing? if so, why is that specific to one race? is this person asserting that other, non-white cultures do not value punctuality and by placing value on being punctual white people are not respecting other cultures?

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tag, this should be interesting.

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i'm white. i admit i have a white bias and my views on racial issues are skewed based on my privilege. but im really struggling to understand how expectations on punctuality is a race thing.

punctuality is a matter of respect for others. when you are expected to be somewhere at a certain time and you are late, you make everyone else wait for you. it's rude.

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So rational thought is for white people and not something that should be common for everyone? What a moron.

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This is like that diagram that said the concept of hard work was white supremacy. Lol.

What do you want white people to do? What do you want PoC to do? Be lazy?

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Giant_Aspirin posted...

i'm white. i admit i have a white bias and my views on racial issues are skewed based on my privilege. but im really struggling to understand how expectations on punctuality is a race thing.

punctuality is a matter of respect for others. when you are expected to be somewhere at a certain time and you are late, you make everyone else wait for you. it's rude.

Everything you said is a cultural thing. That's the meaning you've been taught to place behind punctuality. In other cultures, it doesn't have that meaning. It's more of a loose flowing thing. A meeting that starts at 9 will have people show up at 9:30, and that's just fine. No one feels disrespected, it's a built in assumption when the meeting is made. Life moves at a different pace. Relationships are more important than punctuality.

I know this because I'm from one of those cultures. People assume universality of meaning where it doesn't exist. I know it's cultural because I had to learn one and discard the other. But the meaning here is to meet specific ends, we are much more concerned with efficiency than we are offended that people are placing demands on our time.

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I really doubt there's going to be any perspective shifting or lessons learned in this topic based on the posts already and the other topic that touched on a similar issue.

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honestly it's p self-centered to take my showing up 5 minutes late as disrespect. aside from like, urgent matters idk why punctuality is such a huge thing for schools/workplaces

I feel like white middleclass folks have more means at their disposal and less things to go wrong that would result in lateness? Idk.

also apparently I can't use the term for being late that is similar to the word for mentally handicapped?
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legendary_zell posted...

Everything you said is a cultural thing. That's the meaning you've been taught to place behind punctuality. In other cultures, it doesn't have that meaning. It's more of a loose flowing thing. A meeting that starts at 9 will have people show up at 9:30, and that's just fine. No one feels disrespected, it's a built in assumption when the meeting is made. Life moves at a different pace. Relationships are more important than punctuality.

I know this because I'm from one of those cultures. People assume universality of meaning where it doesn't exist. I know it's cultural because I had to learn one and discard the other. But the meaning here is to meet specific ends, we are much more concerned with efficiency than we are offended that people are placing demands on our time.

Yeah, this says it well. Idk how it varies by race in the US, but there's a reason people talk about "Island time" in Hawaii for instance.

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generally speaking, this board is not a good place for a nuanced discussion about anything related to race

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legendary_zell posted...

Everything you said is a cultural thing. That's the meaning you've been taught to place behind punctuality. In other cultures, it doesn't have that meaning. It's more of a loose flowing thing. A meeting that starts at 9 will have people show up at 9:30, and that's just fine. No one feels disrespected, it's a built in assumption when the meeting is made. Life moves at a different pace. Relationships are more important than punctuality.

so it's cultural and not racial? thats exactly my point. in western culture punctuality is valued. that is not specific to being white, or any race.

can you imagine trying to work in an environment where you schedule meetings and people show up whenever they felt like it? i could not handle that

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Giant_Aspirin posted...

can you imagine trying to work in an environment where you schedule meetings and people show up whenever they felt like it? i could not handle that

that's more a function of capitalism demanding productivity at the expense of everything else and ingraining that mindset on (or at least attempting to pass it on) to everyone who lives within the system

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legendary_zell posted...

A meeting that starts at 9 will have people show up at 9:30, and that's just fine. No one feels disrespected, it's a built in assumption when the meeting is made. Life moves at a different pace. Relationships are more important than punctuality.

uh, what about meetings that last an hour or less? or dinner reservations where the group can't be seated/served until everyone arrives?

i feel like there is some splitting of hairs here--i think it would make sense to be a uniquely white thing to be annoyed by someone being <5min late for a >1h event

but when the lateness gap is a large fraction of the event, there is definitely a crossover into rudeness

the cultural difference seems to be where that crossover point is, not whether it exists

averagejoel posted...

that's more a function of capitalism demanding productivity at the expense of everything else and ingraining that mindset on (or at least attempting to pass it on) to everyone who lives within the system

to be fair it passes it on to them via incentives, not osmosis

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This topic is a perfect example of white privilege and fragility. Of course, this topic is most likely a troll topic not made in good faith.

Sackgurl posted...

uh, what about meetings that last an hour or less?

these are called emails

Giant_Aspirin posted...

so it's cultural and not racial?

Different races tend to have different cultures, yes.

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Herodopus posted...

these are called emails

this is a funny one liner that has zero connection to reality

maybe to the reality we'd like but not the reality we have

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It's definitely a cultural thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh7h5eJpps4

Also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re4dt0BjWdE

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Herodopus posted...

idk why punctuality is such a huge thing for schools/workplaces

Reminds me of a job I had once where a manager sees me come in 2 minutes late and says, "Wow, you're 2 minutes late. You're lucky I'm not your supervisor." It was one of those workplaces where you were expected to arrive 10 minutes early, sit next to the time clock like a good drone, and wait until your official 'deployment' time before punching in.

Generally speaking that kind of needless stress and impulse to control doesn't lead to beneficial outcomes for a company.

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Giant_Aspirin posted...

is this trying to argue that punctuality is a "white" thing? if so, why is that specific to one race? is this person asserting that other, non-white cultures do not value punctuality and by placing value on being punctual white people are not respecting other cultures?

It's not a white thing. Robin D'Angelo is a racist. Period.

averagejoel posted...

that's more a function of capitalism demanding productivity at the expense of everything else and ingraining that mindset on (or at least attempting to pass it on) to everyone who lives within the system

its not even about "demanding productivity". imagine if you just said "sometime today we all need to talk about this thing for 30 minutes. hopefully we can all be available at the same time, we will randomly try until it works out". anything you do that involves the participation of others benefits from punctuality.

and capitalism is not exclusive to race either.

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Sackgurl posted...

this is a funny one liner that has zero connection to reality

maybe to the reality we'd like but not the reality we have

covid has made it a reality for me but yes I agree it is definitely a fact that people like meetings for some reason

uwa ej posted...

This topic is a perfect example of white privilege and fragility.

can you explain why? i legit do not understand this so i ask, and instead of explaining it you yell at me. please stop.

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Dumbest thing I've read today

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Man the NY Times really went to shit with the constant race baiting opinion pieces.

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Looks like it's just someone who got a useless degree trying to insert bizarre racial narratives into shit to try to feel important.

I'm white and I'm late for work like every day

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Herodopus posted...

honestly it's p self-centered to take my showing up 5 minutes late as disrespect. aside from like, urgent matters idk why punctuality is such a huge thing for schools/workplaces

imagine there is a meeting with 10 people and you are one of them. you are making those nine other people wait and do nothing while you show up on your own schedule. it's rude to keep people waiting.

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Giant_Aspirin posted...

imagine there is a meeting with 10 people and you are one of them. you are making those nine other people wait and do nothing while you show up on your own schedule. it's rude to keep people waiting.

literally just start the meeting

Herodopus posted...

literally just start the meeting

when i call people into a meeting i only do so if i actually need their input, or i need them to hear what's being discussed so they can speak up if something's wrong or needs added.

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DuranOfForcena posted...

so is the same argument to be made for the assertion that only whites are taught to value rational thinking? i don't really know, i guess, but if i wasn't white and someone was trying to tell me that my entire race is supposed to not value rational thinking, i would be pretty offended. i don't believe white culture has a monopoly on rational, objective or linear thought and i think it's pretty damn offensive to defend such an assertion.

Seems more it would be a country by country value over race, assuming this is something that happens with such variance that it even warrants analysis or discussion. There could certainly be countries where the idea of a "meeting" itself vastly differs from the West or Asia. Trying to tie it to racial lines just seems like racebaiting though.

Keep in mind, I do think theres a difference between scheduling a meeting at 1pm, and having consequences when youre five minutes late.

Too many places have very strict policies on tardies for no real reason. Especially when the actual event or meeting doesnt even immediately start or ends early.

I had a school professor that would give quizzes in the first ten-five minutes of class and if you show up late, you just fail the quiz.

Her quizzes were easy as shit, but I wasnt going to rush trough traffic if I was running late. Just let me take the quiz later. Who cares.

If someone shows up to a meeting late, who cares? They will fill themselves in. So long as its not habitual or by a large margin.

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progressive people tend to be really racist there's not much else to explain here

Herodopus posted...

literally just start the meeting

Literally just show up on time

Feel free to Google things like "punctuality in other cultures" or "clock time vs. event time." Or "chronemics" if you're looking for more technical reading.

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I did a cultural bias training very recently where the consultant/instructor talked about 'wakanda time' to elaborate on this concept

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Sackgurl posted...

to be fair it passes it on to them via incentives, not osmosis

how it passes it on is not really relevant to the point here. it's still passing on the idea

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The more they go on, the more they just expose themselves at not wanting to be responsible for anything.

ie meetings: If I'm to have a meeting with you, I have to make time for it in my day, rearrange things I need or want to do, and now I can't do them because you didn't show up. I just had to sit and wait for you to grace me with your presence. Now the meeting went longer than I thought it would, I miss my bus to get home and if I had kids they'd be worried I was in an accident because they expect me at a certain time of unfed till I get home, or I didn't have the time to finish payroll and people don't get their money. Conversely, just because you want a meeting now doesn't mean I"m not busy with other tasks and I can't drop them just because this is when you want it.

Punctuality (and several other things on that whiteness list) is not about whiteness, but about respecting that other people are people, not objects there at your convenience.

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Jabodie posted...

Feel free to Google things like "punctuality in other cultures" or "clock time vs. event time." Or "chronemics" if you're looking for more technical reading.

The very first hit on clock time vs event time on Google for me is about how it isn't cultural, funnily enough

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a lot of liberals have infantilized black people to the point they (the libs) don't even think they should be held accountable for anything

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I got nothing, so here's some mindblow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJhgZBn-LHg

DuranOfForcena posted...

so is the same argument to be made for the assertion that only whites are taught to value rational thinking? i don't really know, i guess, but if i wasn't white and someone was trying to tell me that my entire race is supposed to not value rational thinking, i would be pretty offended. i don't believe white culture has a monopoly on rational, objective or linear thought and i think it's pretty damn offensive to defend such an assertion.

You think that way, likely because you have grown up in a white, European descended culture that holds rationality as basically the highest human virtue and considers being called non-rational or worse emotional a grave insult. It is possible to order things differently. You can value community above rationality. You can value emotional intelligence above rationality.

For example, in Japanese culture, one of the most cutting insults you can give someone is to say they can't read the room. Thats not nearly as insulting in our culture, but in a culture that places so much of a premium on avoiding conflicts and avoiding standing out, and on unspoken in group dynamics, that's a damning insult. It's basically saying you don't know how to be Japanese.

The same thing is happening here with both punctuality and rationality. You don't realize just how much these things and their importance is culturally dependent because you're fully a product of Western, American, liberal, capitalist culture. This is not to say any of those are bad, other than maybe that last one, but to say if you were from rural Nigeria, you might not place such a premium on these things, and the importance is very much culturally and contextually dependent.


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Balrog0 posted...

The very first hit on clock time vs event time on Google for me is about how it isn't cultural, funnily enough

Yes, it's a study suggesting that what works better productivity wise for you may be a personality thing, I think. But even then, it shows how concepts of time and the importance of punctuality can vary in the individual.

Edit: like me, I'd say I'm an event time oriented person. Most of my peers I'd say are clock time oriented people, which probably works better in an engineering setting.

And as I mentioned before, I really don't know how this stuff varies within the US by race. But other cultural norms do, so I wouldn't be that surprised to see a difference.

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ledbowman posted...

a lot of liberals have infantilized black people to the point they (the libs) don't even think they should be held accountable for anything

liberals aren't the ones doing this

Basically, if you're discussing punctuality and rationality in moral terms that's because you're really really American. And a specific type of American. If you came from somewhere else, or were part of a subculture due to immigration or societal discrimination, you might not believe the same things and might not assume they're universal and have moral dimensions.

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legendary_zell posted...

Basically, if you're discussing punctuality and rationality in moral terms that's because you're really really American. And a specific type of American. If you came from somewhere else, or were part of a subculture due to immigration or societal discrimination, you might not believe the same things and might not assume they're universal and have moral dimensions.

well that's cool and i can respect that, but part of moving somewhere is assimilating into that culture. you don't expect that culture to bend itself to conform to your expectations. just like its unreasonable for a westerner to move to a culture that doesnt value punctuality and expect them to all be on time, it's unreasonable for someone from another culture to move to the west and expect everyone to be alright with him showing up 49 minutes late to things.

yes, cultures shift and evolve as people immigrate, but those transitions are slow processes.

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lightwarrior78 posted...

The more they go on, the more they just expose themselves at not wanting to be responsible for anything.

ie meetings: If I'm to have a meeting with you, I have to make time for it in my day, rearrange things I need or want to do, and now I can't do them because you didn't show up. I just had to sit and wait for you to grace me with your presence. Now the meeting went longer than I thought it would, I miss my bus to get home and if I had kids they'd be worried I was in an accident because they expect me at a certain time of unfed till I get home, or I didn't have the time to finish payroll and people don't get their money. Conversely, just because you want a meeting now doesn't mean I"m not busy with other tasks and I can't drop them just because this is when you want it.

Punctuality (and several other things on that whiteness list) is not about whiteness, but about respecting that other people are people, not objects there at your convenience.

This is a great example. This is all moralizing, there is nothing objective about this, none of this addresses the cultural dimension. All this talk about respect, morals, and money based obligations is a learned response taught by specific elements of American culture for specific purposes.

People are getting offended when asked to realize that something they thought was universal, and "normal" and good and "natural", is actually just just one specific option out of many.

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