Current Events > can someone help me understand how 'mechanical time' is specific to 'whiteness'?

(+) Yeah! (+)

This is some "all sex is rape" level bait. Just ignore the clickbait artist and move on. White people are not the new oppressed class because some dipshit on the internet said that asking people to be on time was an act of white supremacy.


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legendary_zell posted...

I really doubt there's going to be any perspective shifting or lessons learned in this topic based on the posts already and the other topic that touched on a similar issue.

This. Really not worth trying to convince anyone here, nobody will change their mind or allow themselves to be educated

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FortuneCookie posted...

This is some "all sex is rape" level bait. Just ignore the clickbait artist and move on. White people are not the new oppressed class because some dipshit on the internet said that asking people to be on time was an act of white supremacy.

This. This is why I question that this topic was made in good faith. Alt rights love to twist words in topics like these

how long until "if you won't marry the same sex it is a hate crime"

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uwa ej posted...

This. This is why I question that this topic was made in good faith. Alt rights love to twist words in topics like these

.... did you just call me "alt right"?

well that's a new one

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Giant_Aspirin posted...

well that's cool and i can respect that, but part of moving somewhere is assimilating into that culture. you don't expect that culture to bend itself to conform to your expectations.

Sure. The point is that people that don't have they culture already internalized are at a disadvantage, while people like you and me don't even have to think about cross cultural perception to fulfill society's expectations. Meaning they are more likely to fuck up an important opportunity by showing up 7 minutes late because of cultural biases, rather than a lack of intelligence or work ethic (and of course how those are evaluated are also a construct).

How much does this really matter? Idk because I never had to operate in a cultural with different time/punctuality expectations lol.

A good science fiction book about navigating conflicting cultural expectations is The Left Hand of Darkness. It's a dry read, but worth a shot imo.

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FortuneCookie posted...

White people are not the new oppressed class because some dipshit on the internet said that asking people to be on time was an act of white supremacy.

for the record, i never even came close to suggesting this.

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Giant_Aspirin posted...

well that's cool and i can respect that, but part of moving somewhere is assimilating into that culture. you don't expect that culture to bend itself to conform to your expectations. just like its unreasonable for a westerner to move to a culture that doesnt value punctuality and expect them to all be on time, it's unreasonable for someone from another culture to move to the west and expect everyone to be alright with him showing up 49 minutes late to things.

yes, cultures shift and evolve as people immigrate, but those transitions are slow processes.

I mean it just depends. I don't see why assimilation is a blanket requirement. People do tend to do so on their own over time and generations anyway

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ledbowman posted...

how long until "if you won't marry the same sex it is a hate crime"

Do you post anything that isn't stupid bullshit?

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cymbaline posted...

Do you post anything that isn't stupid bullshit?

yes now lighten up

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Kinda surprising this is an unfamiliar concept to many. I feel like it's sort of "other cultures exist 101", but I can see having no exposure depending on your personal situation.

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Jabodie posted...

Sure. The point is that people that don't have they culture already internalized are at a disadvantage, while people like you and me don't even have to think about cross cultural perception to fulfill society's expectations. Meaning they are more likely to fuck up an important opportunity by showing up 7 minutes late because of cultural biases, rather than a lack of intelligence or work ethic (and of course how those are evaluated are also a construct).

How much does this really matter? Idk because I never had to operate in a cultural with different time/punctuality expectations lol.

A good science fiction book about navigating conflicting cultural expectations is The Left Hand of Darkness. It's a dry read, but worth a shot imo.

part of traveling to or intereacting with another culture is making an effort to understand it first. whoever fucked up an opportunity by being 7 minutes late should have done their homework and researched the expectations of that culture beforehand. it's like how doing business in Japan has slightly different cultural norms than here in the US, but Americans who do business in Japan are still expected to be respectful of Japanese culture when in Japan.

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Giant_Aspirin posted...

well that's cool and i can respect that, but part of moving somewhere is assimilating into that culture. you don't expect that culture to bend itself to conform to your expectations. just like its unreasonable for a westerner to move to a culture that doesnt value punctuality and expect them to all be on time, it's unreasonable for someone from another culture to move to the west and expect everyone to be alright with him showing up 49 minutes late to things.

yes, cultures shift and evolve as people immigrate, but those transitions are slow processes.

But you see, that's what the article in your original post was talking about. People don't even realize it's a cultural thing, and get super bent out of shape and make moral judgments when they interact with someone that holds the same assumptions. It's important to recognize that there are cultural differences and that it's not a matter of laziness or disrespect. Then we can actually have a conversation where people are actually conscious of the fact that they're enforcing cultural norms and can decide whether they actually want to do that or not, vs thinking they're enforcing morality and other people are just incompetent.

People are saying it's racist and infantalizing to talk about the cultural norms of different groups and how they conflict with existing norms. But it's much more dangerous to not talk about it because as you see in this topic, talking about it leads to discussion of cultural practices while not talking about it leads to unchallenged conclusions that certain groups are just lazy, and rude, and want to lose you money.

It is very very very dangerous when people aren't even aware of how their assumptions about how other people should act and why they do what they do came to be and when they assume those beliefs are objective or common sense.

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Herodopus posted...

such a huge thing for schools

Speaking as a teacher, it's important to me because I only get 45 minutes of classtime per student. Students that walk in late not only disrupt the flow of my class, but now compete for time trying to catch what they missed.

Now I personally think we (society) need to rethink the structure of the "school year" and "school day" at a fundamental level, but that's a different conversation and for now I'm forced to value every minute I get.

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Jabodie posted...

Kinda surprising this is an unfamiliar concept to many. I feel like it's sort of "other cultures exist 101", but I can see having no exposure depending on your personal situation.

This lack of culture exposure is common in the south

legendary_zell posted...

This is a great example. This is all moralizing, there is nothing objective about this, none of this addresses the cultural dimension. All this talk about respect, morals, and money based obligations is a learned response taught by specific elements of American culture for specific purposes.

People are getting offended when asked to realize that something they thought was universal, and "normal" and good and "natural", is actually just just one specific option out of many.

And you are talking in bullshit zen speech instead of saying why a different way is better for anyone. Different cultures are different. Duh. Heard this all in the 90s when the buzzword was paradigm shift. Why is one better than the other for a different reason than "whiteness"? I mean, I get why it's better for some people, but does that put a cost on someone else?

Also, I'm Canadian. Ther'es little Americanness in my thought process. It's life experience of being dicked around by people that act like doing what they've promised to do when or by the time they are supposed to do it is an impossible feat, but heaven help me if their paycheck is late.

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Balrog0 posted...

I don't see why assimilation is a blanket requirement

total assimilation isn't a requirement, but basic understanding of cultural norms is a good idea. nobody is saying you have to be punctual all of the time, just recognize that is an expectation in many situtations. in fact, i'd argue against assimilating completely because then the original culture is lost and that's a shame. after all, the "melting pot" is part of why America kicks ass.

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Sounds like you should take his class, and bring us the notes.

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ZMythos posted...

Now I personally think we (society) need to rethink the structure of the "school year" and "school day" at a fundamental level, but that's a different conversation and for now I'm forced to value every minute I get.

Have you heard about microschooling?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro-schooling

Giant_Aspirin posted...

part of traveling to or intereacting with another culture is making an effort to understand it first. whoever fucked up an opportunity by being 7 minutes late should have done their homework and researched the expectations of that culture beforehand. it's like how doing business in Japan has slightly different cultural norms than here in the US, but Americans who do business in Japan are still expected to be respectful of Japanese culture when in Japan.

So I grew up around a lot of first generation immigrants from Vietnam many of whom came as refugees (I mean, I mostly knew their second generation kids tbf but still)

I think this is no longer true, but at one point they had a widely circulated Vietnamese language daily newspaper. Little Saigon was a thing and still is I presume.

Maybe not learning English limited some of their options, just as one example of a thing people say is necessary, but they got along fine without it so what's the problem?

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South american cultures often have you show up like an hour late to meetings

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legendary_zell posted...

But you see, that's what the article in your original post was talking about. People don't even realize it's a cultural thing, and get super bent out of shape and make moral judgments when they interact with someone that holds the same assumptions. It's important to recognize that there are cultural differences and that it's not a matter of laziness or disrespect. Then we can actually have a conversation where people are actually conscious of the fact that they're enforcing cultural norms and can decide whether they actually want to do that or not, vs thinking they're enforcing morality and other people are just incompetent.

People are saying it's racist and infantalizing to talk about the cultural norms of different groups and how they conflict with existing norms. But it's much more dangerous to not talk about it because as you see in this topic, talking about it leads to discussion of cultural practices while not talking about it leads to unchallenged conclusions that certain groups are just lazy, and rude, and want to lose you money.

It is very very very dangerous when people aren't even aware of how their assumptions about how other people should act and why they do what they do came to be and when they assume those beliefs are objective or common sense.

so i can sort of buy into this if we're talking about a person from another part of the world having trouble with the fact that westerners value being on time. fair enough.

but what about in this case where everyone involved is from the same country? that article i linked in the OP asserts that being on time is somehow a "white" thing and that "black" students (born and raised in the US to parents born and raised in the US, mind you) are unfairly held to the same standard.

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cuttin_in_farm posted...

I had a school professor that would give quizzes in the first ten-five minutes of class and if you show up late, you just fail the quiz.

Her quizzes were easy as s***, but I wasnt going to rush trough traffic if I was running late. Just let me take the quiz later. Who cares.

Spotted the kid who cheated in school. Yes, because it's totally reasonable to assume that students who come in late, after the class has taken a test, won't just ask a friend or classmate for answers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

Force black workers to literally live "on the other side of the railroad tracks", so now there's a 1/8 chance they'll catch the train and be subsequently late to wherever they're going.

Or be so poor that one lacks their own car so now they're subjected to the whims of underfunded public transportation (or so poor their piece of shit car might not start up one morning) -- which isn't exclusively a black thing, but the overlap is there.

In fact, this high regard of punctuality might just be a means to spite redlined, poor people. Most of the "white" solutions to this generation+ issue are lmaobootstrap.
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Yes it is interesting the terms of this conversation haven't actually tackled the essential argument here

Someone even said that it's common not to be exposed to other cultures in the south, even though most black people in the US live here and it's generally less segregated by race than urban areas else where

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i know some indian families and they all joke about and practice being fashionably late

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Giant_Aspirin posted...

part of traveling to or intereacting with another culture is making an effort to understand it first. whoever fucked up an opportunity by being 7 minutes late should have done their homework and researched the expectations of that culture beforehand. it's like how doing business in Japan has slightly different cultural norms than here in the US, but Americans who do business in Japan are still expected to be respectful of Japanese culture when in Japan.

Reading about something online can be different than trying to live it. You're struggling to imagine people showing up to get togethers or meetings like a half hour late, which can be perfectly reasonable in other cultures.

But with your new knowledge, maybe when that guy you met from another country shows up later than you'd like, know that he may have made a cultural faux pas he wasn't aware of, and give him a break that first time. Then explain it's rude in our culture to be that late. People can live in entire communities of immigrants that share a similar cultural background, and now you are armed with some empathy. If you ever emigrate, I'm willing to bet you'd appreciate getting the benefit of the doubt once in a while is all I'm saying.

Edit: also, what I'm saying is only tangentially related to the topic at hand. I'm not aware of how time culture varies across race within the US.

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Balrog0 posted...

Maybe not learning English limited some of their options, just as one example of a thing people say is necessary, but they got along fine without it so what's the problem?

if they can get along without leaning English, more power to them. they aren't expecting the culture they moved into to shift based on their expectations.

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Jabodie posted...

But with your new knowledge, maybe when that guy you met from another country shows up later than you'd like, know that he may have made a cultural faux pas he wasn't aware of, and give him a break that first time. Then explain it's rude in our culture to be that late

that sounds absolutely appropriate.

im sure i've made countless faux pas when i travel to other countries. i do my research but theres no way i read or remember all of it. but if i did make a mistake and was corrected for it i would not scream racism.

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lightwarrior78 posted...

And you are talking in bullshit zen speech instead of saying why a different way is better for anyone. Different cultures are different. Duh. Heard this all in the 90s when the buzzword was paradigm shift. Why is one better than the other for a different reason than "whiteness"? I mean, I get why it's better for some people, but does that put a cost on someone else?

Also, I'm Canadian. Ther'es little Americanness in my thought process. It's life experience of being dicked around by people that act like doing what they've promised to do when or by the time they are supposed to do it is an impossible feat, but heaven help me if their paycheck is late.

I'm don't think I'm talking in zen speech. I thought I was talking normally. I'm not saying one is better than other, I like, the article in the OP is just trying to get everyone to realize that these things are simply ways as you describe them and they come from somewhere/are not universal. It's fine to say that punctuality is better than non-punctuality. That's even what I personally believe, I show up early to everything, I hate being made to wait, I hate "wasting other people's time."

But I recognize that I believe that because that's what I've been taught since moving to a Western country and since I've personally experienced a non-Western mindset and way of life, I know that the belief was learned, not natural and that other people do it differently. If I showed up early to everything in a non-Western context, I'd get a very different response.

There are lots of people in Western society that come from a different tradition and a different way of doing things. It's very important for social interaction, for jobs, for a lot of reasons that when you are enforcing X way of doing things, X way and the meaning attached to it came from a specific cultural inheritance and when you enforce it, it may have effects that you didn't intent. That doesn't necessarily mean that anyone should change anything, but not being aware leads to terrible consequences.


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for the most part this was an informative discussion. thank you to those who contributed non-troll replies.

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averagejoel posted...

how it passes it on is not really relevant to the point here. it's still passing on the idea

sure it is: it defines how those who want to change it can do so

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Giant_Aspirin posted...

so i can sort of buy into this if we're talking about a person from another part of the world having trouble with the fact that westerners value being on time. fair enough.

but what about in this case where everyone involved is from the same country? that article i linked in the OP asserts that being on time is somehow a "white" thing and that "black" students (born and raised in the US to parents born and raised in the US, mind you) are unfairly held to the same standard.

Unfortunately, black people and white people have led very different lives, worked different jobs, lived in different places, and thus have formed very different cultural assumptions and baselines over the centuries. It's certainly not universal, I'd expect that most Americans of all races have very similar opinions on things like punctuality, rationality, etc.

But it shouldn't be missed where those assumptions came from and I can say with confidence, it wasn't from the descendants of slaves or from African/Caribbean immigrants, or Mexican immigrants, or indigenous Americans, or Asian immigrants. These things were set awhile back and not when any of these people had the cultural power to determine anything.

But that's all lost because these things meld into a generic "American" culture that people believe is devoid of any racial or cultural context. But it definitely is not.

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If it can be objectively demonstrated that lateness will have a negative impact on others, how is knowingly disregarding that not rude? This is a sincere question, because i cant fathom how a poc could read this and not be offended.

Also, i have not noticed any races as more punctual than others. Yes, business culture presumably has white roots (and trunk and branches) and it is unfair, but some degree of corporate cultural homogeneity is necessary to operate smoothly. I have never met anyone of any race who took issue with the assumption of punctuality

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As someone who has spent a lot of time in workplaces that don't penalize being or starting on time too much, there absolutely is a functionality to all members of a meeting being on time to a meeting. And so I can't fully get passed the whole "but that's just your culture's priorities" thing.

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g980 posted...

If it can be objectively demonstrated that lateness will have a negative impact on others, how is knowingly disregarding that not rude? This is a sincere question, because i cant fathom how a poc could read this and not be offended.

Also, i have not noticed any races as more punctual than others. Yes, business culture presumably has white roots (and trunk and branches) and it is unfair, but some degree of corporate cultural homogeneity is necessary to operate smoothly. I have never met anyone of any race who took issue with the assumption of punctuality

No one is talking about the effect. We all live in a capitalist society where punctuality and efficiency is important. We're just talking about where it comes from and how people should be aware of the fact that it came from somewhere and not everyone may feel the same about it.

I personally wouldn't want to switch to a culture where people were late as hell to everything. But that's because I'm a very well trained American at this point. However, thinking that anyone would be offended at the thought that they wouldn't arrive somewhere exactly on time isn't true. I can definitely say that my parents weren't too big on punctuality when we first got here, and they still complain about the American obsession with it, but they follow the rules because of how much its expected. They're not gonna fight that battle on their own and win, they'll just get fired. But if someone had fired them when they first got here and assumed they were simply lazy and rude, that would have been wrong and tragic.

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Shit like this just does a disservice to everyone involved and avoids the actual reasons while painting it as inflammatory as possible. Like so many things, the root of the problem in America is actually economic and the reason it is easy to swap over for race is because of the hundreds of years of systemic racism that have disproportionately place POC into disadvantaged economic situations.

Poor people live further from work, they have less reliable means of transportation, they have less access to modern communication platforms, and because they work less desirable jobs they are less likely to have autonomy over their schedules. From there it does start to work into cultural acceptance within those disadvantaged communities as those problems bleed into their relationships with friends and family.

So ultimately it does become a bit of a culture clash when you start to bridge the gap between those groups, but to claim it is inherently born out of race is just flabbergasting.

https://youtu.be/vXO_GUu5KKo&t=9

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legendary_zell posted...

We all live in a capitalist society where punctuality and efficiency is important.

i think the implied causality here is a stretch

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Actually the Mayans for a long time had more precise ways of keeping time than any Caucasian culture, if you really wanna go there. And corporate culture holds timeliness in high regard globally last I checked. Are we really putting French work culture above, say, Japanese work culture?

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is racism the only thing users on gamefaqs can talk about?

realnifty1 posted...

So ultimately it does become a bit of a culture clash when you start to bridge the gap between those groups, but to claim it is inherently born out of race is just flabbergasting.

It makes you think about some of the arguments that are used to say a concept is racial that are actually class based and put poor people at a disadvantage as a collective.

realnifty1 posted...

So ultimately it does become a bit of a culture clash when you start to bridge the gap between those groups, but to claim it is inherently born out of race is just flabbergasting.

Redlining was done along racial lines. Low income whites got home loans while middle class blacks did not.

Therefore it very much a racial bias performed through socio-economic disparity.
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g980 posted...

i think the implied causality here is a stretch

I think it has a lot to do with it. Maybe it's not quite capitalism, but any culture that spreads over a wide enough area and is industrialized enough. Capitalism was the first to develop it, but I haven't heard anything about socialist or communist countries getting rid punctuality.

So your point is taken, I don't think I have enough evidence to say that Capitalism causes the obsession with punctuality. But Capitalism definitely relies on it, encourages it, and is very compatible with it.

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in the South nobody believes in punctuality across demos so that example might not apply equally everywhere lol

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Isn't this assuming races are cultural monoliths?

legendary_zell posted...

But Capitalism definitely relies on it, encourages it, and is very compatible with it

I suppose. Are you suggesting that a socialist society wouldnt care for punctuality? I feel like punctuality is necessary for any organized society.

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