Poll of the Day > Sony closes London studio, 900+ employees laid off with no warning

(+) Yeah! (+)

just 5 days after Jim Ryan current former PlayStation CEO visited their studio and partied with them

What dick bags

ConfusedTorchic posted...

just 5 days after Jim Ryan current former PlayStation CEO visited their studio and partied with them

I saw this in the news and this is terrible. I wonder if AI is to blame. Or corporate greed. Probably both.

What does "current former CEO" mean?

ai is not even on the list of things that can be blamed lmfao

If anything they need MORE people working for them. The PS5 has been pathetic, more games need to be developed. It doesn't help that they announced that the PS5 is in the end half of its lifetime despite the fact that literally everybody feels like this generation has hardly even started. They're clueless if they think anyone will buy a PS6 after how sad this generation was.

ConfusedTorchic posted...

ai is not even on the list of things that can be blamed lmfao

"AI game generators are redefining game development by automating the creation of game elements like characters, environments, and storylines."

You really don't see how this could be a contributing factor to, say, a large, greedy multibillion dollar company laying off 900 employees suddenly to cut costs and increase profit margins?

You seem a bit confused, Torchic.

GameReviews posted...

"AI game generators are redefining game development by automating the creation of game elements like characters, environments, and storylines."

You really don't see how this could be a contributing factor to, say, a large, greedy multibillion dollar company laying off 900 employees suddenly to cut costs and increase profit margins?

You seem a bit confused, Torchic.

Yup.
Dumb company: Use AI to reduce costs
Smart company: Use AI to increase production

We are seeing the part of the capitalism cycle where the big companies fail after so many cuts for quick profit. A new crop of companies is forming.

GameReviews posted...

"AI game generators are redefining game development by automating the creation of game elements like characters, environments, and storylines."

You really don't see how this could be a contributing factor to, say, a large, greedy multibillion dollar company laying off 900 employees suddenly to cut costs and increase profit margins?

You seem a bit confused, Torchic.

given that ai isn't involved anywhere in this situation, no, it wouldn't be a contributing factor.

we already know that playstation itself is going through a very rough time, what with the ceo getting fired, the cancellation of a dozen or more live service titles, failure to meet sales expectations for everything across the board, and lack of first party titles for at least a year and a half.

moreover the massive data leak from insomniac shows that playstation had been planning layoffs and a studio closure for quite some time because they aren't recouping costs anywhere.

ConfusedTorchic posted...

given that ai isn't involved anywhere in this situation, no, it wouldn't be a contributing factor.

we already know that playstation itself is going through a very rough time, what with the ceo getting fired, the cancellation of a dozen or more live service titles, failure to meet sales expectations for everything across the board, and lack of first party titles for at least a year and a half.

All live service games fail these days. So a good choice to cancel them. They are guaranteed money pits.

helldivers 2 doesn't appear to be failing any time soon, and palworld is absolutely crushing it

ConfusedTorchic posted...

helldivers 2 doesn't appear to be failing any time soon, and palworld is absolutely crushing it

I can't speak to helldivers, But palworld has already slowed down. If it was a live service game it would be debating getting killed off now. Down to 282,000 players. Still a lot sure, but not the big times anymore.

But you're right, I should amend my comment to say, AAA live service games.
Let's hope helldivers in the exception. But if it's to be a live service game, honestly I hope it fails.

This is obviously the fault of everyone who made fun of Morbius and Madame Web online.

Sony loses money, Sony has to cut jobs. It's the Circle of Life.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

This is obviously the fault of everyone who made fun of Madame Web

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/b/be034414.jpg

ConfusedTorchic posted...

helldivers 2 doesn't appear to be failing any time soon, and palworld is absolutely crushing it

neither of those are live service games wtf

the palworld devs specifically said its fine to just stop playing their game because games aren't meant to be played forever. that is the exact opposite mantra of a live service game

it's still a live service at its core, palworld is, even if they haven't done the live service stuff yet because they focused on bugs

helldiver's 2 is straight up a pay 2 win live service game

I'm not sure you understand what the concept of a live service game is

what makes you think helldivers isn't a live service game

what makes you think palworld is a live service game

(thats the one i own and have played)

It's like Sony's recent rash of terrible decisions has come back to haunt them.

agesboy posted...

what makes you think palworld is a live service game

(thats the one i own and have played)

a online multiplayer world with (supposed) ongoing support in the form of new content at a frequent enough pace (baseline minimum being bungies destiny support of once a year ofc)

if it's not live service then it's definitely live service adjacent

ConfusedTorchic posted...

a online multiplayer world with (supposed) ongoing support in the form of new content at a frequent enough pace

so........ any multiplayer game that hasn't been entirely abandoned?

agesboy posted...

so........ any multiplayer game that hasn't been entirely abandoned?

More like any game, single or multiplayer, that gets continuous support over a lengthy post-launch period that goes beyond mere patches, but isn't regimented into full-blown DLC/expansions

Both Helldivers and Palworld fit

Palworld has planned endgame support and other post-launch content. That's live-service

yeah what he said

MeatiestMeatus posted...

More like any game, single or multiplayer, that gets continuous support over a lengthy post-launch period that goes beyond mere patches, but isn't regimented into full-blown DLC/expansions

palworld hasn't launched yet. it's on version 0.1.5. that's an extremely far cry from version 1.0

i think that's a whole different argument if you consider just being able to buy and play the game as having launched, or it needing a specific version number

ConfusedTorchic posted...

a online multiplayer world with (supposed) ongoing support in the form of new content at a frequent enough pace (baseline minimum being bungies destiny support of once a year ofc)

if it's not live service then it's definitely live service adjacent

It's early access.

And yes, live service games are adjacent to betas, they develop half a game, see if people will fund the other half, then if it's not dead by then, start some DLC with that money

ConfusedTorchic posted...

if it's not live service then it's definitely live service adjacent

I think of games like Palworld as "live service lite"

Also, a game being early access does not negate that it follows the live service model. Particularly when there's multiplayer, as many multiplayer live service games feature early access or betas prior to the full launch

Some senior managers, sacking people to slash the wages bill is the only way they know how to manage and they think it's the only thing they need to know.

Vampire_Chicken posted...

Some senior managers, sacking people to slash the wages bill is the only way they know how to manage and they think it's the only thing they need to know.

Good management is like a strainer. CEO's shit on you from high, managers strain that shit and only allow some of it to reach the level below them. Repeat until whatever is left hits the employees.

Bad management is like a funnel. CEO's shit on you from high, managers funnel it all down to one person until that person is overflowing with shit, and they get replaced with the next shit bag who is dumb enough to sit under them.

Seems like every company is doing layoffs this year

Metalsonic66 posted...

Seems like every company is doing layoffs this year

Mine just announced that they had their first ever loss this year.
No layoffs, instead they are investing more to ride the next wave back up. Since the wave always comes.

MeatiestMeatus posted...

Palworld has planned endgame support and other post-launch content. That's live-service

That's early access. Certainly, live service games can have early access/beta periods, but to say "we've launched in early access, we're planning to do a bunch more updates before calling the game finished" is not a live service model. That's just early access.

Notably, they explicitly are not planning to make a game that's designed for people to play it forever. Live services are designed with the intent of keeping up a continuous supply of content to keep people playing indefinitely, almost always with some kind of recurrent monetization opportunities (whether a subscription fee, microtransactions, DLC/expansions, or a combination of the above) to capitalize on that engagement. If they're not planning to keep adding stuff to keep people playing forever, it's not a live service.

Heck, if we say that any game that keeps getting content updates after launch is a live service, arguably that means almost every game is a live service these days, and at that point the term just loses all meaning.

SinisterSlay posted...

Yup.
Dumb company: Use AI to reduce costs
Smart company: Use AI to increase production

The problem with increasing production is that there isn't really a shortage of games coming out of any major studio, nor is there a shortage of games coming out in general. Getting more games out can help to capture a greater share of that market, but games already struggle to stand out enough to be successful, and by and large producing more games means compromising on their quality and therefore jeopardizing their chances.

Generally speaking, because the market is finite (people can only buy and play so many games), you're going to see better returns by using new tools to produce the same output at lower cost than to produce more output at the same cost. The exact comparison will of course depend on the magnitude of the savings/production increase (saving 1% is obviously worse than selling 100% more), but I'm not surprised that companies are looking more for opportunities to cut corners than to expand.

adjl posted...

The problem with increasing production is that there isn't really a shortage of games coming out of any major studio, nor is there a shortage of games coming out in general. Getting more games out can help to capture a greater share of that market, but games already struggle to stand out enough to be successful, and by and large producing more games means compromising on their quality and therefore jeopardizing their chances.

Your thinking the wrong way, its not more games, its higher quality games in the same time, or games made faster.
I like most devs now use copilot, and it is a huge code quality improvement.

SinisterSlay posted...

Your thinking the wrong way, its not more games, its higher quality games in the same time, or games made faster.

That's more cost saving than increased production. If you can produce the same product in fewer salary hours, you've saved money, and increasing quality is distinct from increasing production (which I tend to interpret as increasing the volume produced).

adjl posted...

That's more cost saving than increased production. If you can produce the same product in fewer salary hours, you've saved money, and increasing quality is distinct from increasing production (which I tend to interpret as increasing the volume produced).

Well less bugs in first release. Less crunch time.

If anything, it'll probably result in more crunch time because the out-of-touch executives who come up with project deadlines that require crunch in the first place will just buy into the hype that AI can shorten development times without actually taking the time to understand how it can do that and what that actually means for project timelines. Crunch (at least the serious cases, occasional overtime is kind of inevitable) happens now because executives don't understand game development and the capabilities of their employees/studios well enough to form realistic expectations for timelines. AI is more likely to make that worse than to fix it.

adjl posted...

If anything, it'll probably result in more crunch time because the out-of-touch executives who come up with project deadlines that require crunch in the first place will just buy into the hype that AI can shorten development times without actually taking the time to understand how it can do that and what that actually means for project timelines. Crunch (at least the serious cases, occasional overtime is kind of inevitable) happens now because executives don't understand game development and the capabilities of their employees/studios well enough to form realistic expectations for timelines. AI is more likely to make that worse than to fix it.

Comes back to the smart companies vs dumb companies thing again

I'd say it applies across the board. If crunch was ever on the table, having AI tools that supposedly speed things up will probably make it worse. In cases where the tools don't make crunch worse, crunch was probably never on the table to begin with. Either way, AI tools aren't likely to impact abusive crunch.

I'm also not sure I'd go with dumb/smart companies so much as companies that do/don't suck. By and large, the "dumb" companies are quite successful and have made/are making tons of money. It's unlikely that that money is sustainable, but they're engineered such that if the bubble does burst, the executives and board members will get their golden parachutes and the only people really suffering for their myopic greed will be the employees. They may have a few high-profile failures as a result of being out of touch with what it takes to actually make a good game (Anthem being one of the more notable recent examples), but generally speaking, they're quite competent when it comes to the overall goal of making a lot of money quickly. They just suck, from our perspective, because we place more value on having good games and not compromising employees' quality of life than on giving shareholders nice returns.

adjl posted...

That's early access. Certainly, live service games can have early access/beta periods, but to say "we've launched in early access, we're planning to do a bunch more updates before calling the game finished" is not a live service model. That's just early access.

Notably, they explicitly are not planning to make a game that's designed for people to play it forever.

They stated they plan on releasing more content (islands, pals, bosses, tech) and endgame raid bosses. That's live service, not early access:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/2/2a55ee40.jpg

It has released in early access, but the support they've mapped out is live service lite

again, a game having planed updates does not make it live service, lol

a live service game would be monetizing those features and milking out infinite playtime

MeatiestMeatus posted...

They stated they plan on releasing more content (islands, pals, bosses, tech) and endgame raid bosses. That's live service, not early access:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/2/2a55ee40.jpg

It has released in early access, but the support they've mapped out is live service lite

I think you are confused because in the AAA world, a live service game is an early access game.
In the rest of the world, an early access game is the developer looking for community feedback on how to develop the game.

Palworld is doing the latter. They have no plans for additional monetization yet.

MeatiestMeatus posted...

They stated they plan on releasing more content (islands, pals, bosses, tech) and endgame raid bosses. That's live service, not early access:

Is Stardew Valley a live service? Is Terraria? Was Hades, before they finished releasing all new zones and weapons pre-launch?

Live services are a matter of continuous content delivery to keep people playing. Early access is a matter of "the game's not done yet, here's what we're still planning to add." Some other games get long-term support because the devs have new ideas that they want to add, which may bring players back, but aren't really meant to keep people playing continuously. As far as content delivery goes, the lines can blur a bit, especially when it comes to formatting roadmaps, but the primary distinction lies in the motivation: Live services get more content to hold people's interest, and will therefore continue to get new content until the game stops holding enough people's interest to be sustainable. Early access games (and games like Stardew with long-term support) get more content because the devs aren't done yet, and will therefore stop getting new content when the devs run out of things they want to do.

Most notably, though, live services are live, meaning they can die. They're based on servers and can therefore eventually stop when the publisher decides to stop hosting them. If a game doesn't meaningfully change when its servers shut down because the game's support is based on a one-time purchase and not ongoing monetization, it's not a live service.

Live service games are an economic model more than they are a game, their entire purpose is to keep you logging in daily and perpetually giving into microtransactions. The only people who like them are greedy shareholders who want to scrape the bottom of the dumpster.

Palworld doesn't even have microtransactions, it's nothing like a live service game, I have no idea what you people are on about. Having a roadmap doesn't make you a live service game. Fortnite is live service, Destiny is live service, Valhiem is not live service, and Minecraft is not live service.

That's why I call it live service lite. They're adding more to the game in the future. That's not early access. Early access is just that: early access to a game that's largely complete but needs quality of life fixes. Monetization or no, Palworld follows a live service model. In addition to QOL fixes, they're adding to the game. Of particular note is the admission that they're adding endgame raid support. That's definitively live service

Suicide Squad is offering a lot of free updates. No Man's Sky offers a lot of free updates once you've paid for the main game. Just because Palworld isn't charging doesn't make it not live service

MeatiestMeatus posted...

That's why I call it live service lite. They're adding more to the game in the future. That's not early access. Early access is just that: early access to a game that's largely complete but needs quality of life fixes. Monetization or no, Palworld follows a live service model. In addition to QOL fixes, they're adding to the game. Of particular note is the admission that they're adding endgame raid support. That's definitively live service

Suicide Squad is offering a lot of free updates. No Man's Sky offers a lot of free updates once you've paid for the main game. Just because Palworld isn't charging doesn't make it not live service

But they straight up say the game isn't done and they are still building it and want community involvement. Is in your mind any game getting post launch updates a live service game? And early access just doesn't exist?

From the store page

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/05462945.jpg

Full text

Why Early Access?
We believe that to create an exciting and completely new game, it is very important to keep fine-tuning it based on feedback from our players.

Palworld is a monster-catching, survival and crafting game, but incorporates a variety of mechanics from other genres in order to provide a completely new experience for everyone.

In order to collect feedback on these elements and grow the game into one that everyone can enjoy, we believe that feedback from everyone in the community is necessary.

Therefore, we have decided to release Palworld into Early Access.

Please lend us your support so that we can make Palworld the best it can be.
Approximately how long will this game be in Early Access?
We plan to improve the quality of the game by making various improvements throughout early access for at least one year.

During early access, we will update the game based on the roadmap, actively adding content and improving the game systems.

Depending on the progress of development, we may consider extending early access or if we are satisfied with the state of the game, officially releasing the game.
How is the full version planned to differ from the Early Access version?
We plan to incorporate various additional elements, focusing on adding new content and balance adjustments where needed.

The addition of new monsters to further the Pal roster, new areas and dungeons to make exploration even more enjoyable, and the addition of new buildings and items that make the survival elements more pronounced and enjoyable, making the unique Palworld experience even more appealing. We are considering content to target.

We are also considering incorporating entirely new game systems based on player feedback and ideas.
What is the current state of the Early Access version?
The core systems of the Palworld experience, such as monster catching, battles, exploration, building and crafting, are already complete.

We also have more than 100 monsters, a vast open world, over 350 items, and more than 70 types of buildings - enough content to keep you entertained even during early access.
Will the game be priced differently during and after Early Access?
The price of the game may increase at or closer to the official release.
How are you planning on involving the Community in your development process?
We're asking for your feedback in a variety of places, including the Steam forums, on our Twitter, Discord and other social networking sites.

We also hope that the community will be a great place for players to interact with other players who are enjoying Palworld.

We believe that Palworld is a game that the development team and the players will work together to create.

Based on discussions within the community, we plan to actively implement content and system improvements that were not planned at the beginning of development but that the players long for.

We would love to hear your feedback on Palworld.

No you're definitely completely diluting the meaning of that word. You're describing every single game that gets free updates.

This is what youtubers did to the word "paradox"

Diluted or not, Palworld is live service lite

Patches and quality of life improvements are all that's added to an early access game.

Additional content makes it live service. It's still monetized even if it's "free" because they're charging for the base game

adjl posted...

I'd say it applies across the board. If crunch was ever on the table, having AI tools that supposedly speed things up will probably make it worse. In cases where the tools don't make crunch worse, crunch was probably never on the table to begin with. Either way, AI tools aren't likely to impact abusive crunch.

I'm also not sure I'd go with dumb/smart companies so much as companies that do/don't suck. By and large, the "dumb" companies are quite successful and have made/are making tons of money. It's unlikely that that money is sustainable, but they're engineered such that if the bubble does burst, the executives and board members will get their golden parachutes and the only people really suffering for their myopic greed will be the employees. They may have a few high-profile failures as a result of being out of touch with what it takes to actually make a good game (Anthem being one of the more notable recent examples), but generally speaking, they're quite competent when it comes to the overall goal of making a lot of money quickly. They just suck, from our perspective, because we place more value on having good games and not compromising employees' quality of life than on giving shareholders nice returns.

Companies are so short sighted and stupid. They build a house of cards with no foundation and ruin everything when they could build a strong foundation where product/service quality and employee quality is a higher priority than profits. So they are willing to trade away their foundation for a couple record breaking quarters/years and then let their company dwindle away to nothing instead of being smart about it and building up a system that works long term and will make more money overall while also being better for their customers and employees. It's stupid, these guys shouldn't be running a car wash, let alone a multimillion dollar company.

MeatiestMeatus posted...

Diluted or not, Palworld is live service lite

Patches and quality of life improvements are all that's added to an early access game.

Additional content makes it live service. It's still monetized even if it's "free" because they're charging for the base game

So you can't read? It's early access. Read what I posted, very very carefully, use your good eye.
Early access literally means the game isn't done. They are still building it, new content will be added as they build it.

Your definition of "live service light" is so broad it includes every game ever made ever because they all had early alphas and betas.

Final Fantasy 6 was a live service light because it got renamed to final fantasy 3, then back to 6 again. And content was added in the PS1 release.