Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 290: Wisconscionable

(+) Yeah! (+)

Inviso posted...

I'm not okay with it at all. I wish the progressives had nominated a candidate that didn't alienate the majority of the party so I could vote for THAT person instead of the second-worst candidate in the Democratic primary. But there was no learning from 2016, and now we're stuck with alleged sexual assaulter vs. rapist who got a fellow rapist confirmed to the Supreme Court. One of these is an order of magnitude less terrible than the other.

And they'll deserve to do so. After all, I'm sure that all those Bernie supporters will have spent the seven months prior to the election calmly supporting Biden in order to ensure that at least SOME aspect of their progressive ideology is carried out, rather than completely erased and reversed under four more years of a Trump presidency, and they will in no way signal boost every single negative talking point they can in a showy fashion to express just how morally righteous they are in their disdain for Joe Biden. None of those "told you so" voices will ever comment about how Trump and Biden are "the same" or how they're not going to vote, or they're going to write in Bernie's name, or they'll vote third party. Nope, those voices will fight tooth and nail to ensure that Joe Biden wins, and then if/when he loses, they'll be completely justified in being pissed at Biden beating Bernie, because I'm sure that they will have, in no way, contributed to the kind of atmosphere in which Joe Biden is sandbagged and treated as being on the same level of awfulness as Donald Trump.

Spoilers many of them are not going to do any of those things. They are going to actually vote for Trump. And he will win, and justice will be done.

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UshiromiyaEva posted...

Centrist Dems are scum, but you can't get worse than a Republican.

No matter how much I disparage Biden for being trash, and he deinfiitely is trash and people who like him should be ashamed, he's still not an LITERAL Republican.

How do you expect to win elections when you call 80% of the country scum?

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Remember this the next time you try and compare Bernie to Ron Paul. Ron Paul never endorsed McCain or Romney.



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I think the stupidest purity test of all is that people who support Bernie Sanders have to all be smart/nice/supportive/fair. No group is like that. When Tony talks about the DNC he's really talking about a select few people who have real power. When Tony talks about the news media he is talking about a select few people who hold giant sway over discourse. I mean the margins of people who are going to support Biden calmly compared to those who want to burn it all down are like a Link round 1 match around here. A nice, calm 85-15 blow out that obviously makes it seem like Link is a powerhouse. But then we spend so much time going "WELL Link didn't get 100% of the vote, so maybe he's screwed."

No one's supporters are nice all the time. Plenty of Biden supporters are dicks. Plenty of Warren supporters were dicks.

And I'll say anyone who won't support Biden over Trump and who claimed to support Bernie is super stupid and just all sorts of wrong too.

But yeah this is pretty normal to have people with different views, and as I have been reminded through this pandemic most people are just dumb.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

I think the DNC and Biden are dogshit and everyone who voted for Biden deserves the worst, but I cant join you on this one.

It's alright I didn't expect you to, but I do want you to start accepting the anger now coz it'll make it easier and won't make November feel like re-opening a scab.

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Inviso posted...

And they'll deserve to do so. After all, I'm sure that all those Bernie supporters will have spent the seven months prior to the election calmly supporting Biden in order to ensure that at least SOME aspect of their progressive ideology is carried out, rather than completely erased and reversed under four more years of a Trump presidency, and they will in no way signal boost every single negative talking point they can in a showy fashion to express just how morally righteous they are in their disdain for Joe Biden. None of those "told you so" voices will ever comment about how Trump and Biden are "the same" or how they're not going to vote, or they're going to write in Bernie's name, or they'll vote third party. Nope, those voices will fight tooth and nail to ensure that Joe Biden wins, and then if/when he loses, they'll be completely justified in being pissed at Biden beating Bernie, because I'm sure that they will have, in no way, contributed to the kind of atmosphere in which Joe Biden is sandbagged and treated as being on the same level of awfulness as Donald Trump.

Heres the deal, even if Im willing to eat shit and vote for the lesser of two rapists, there are millions of people who literally never would, so throw out your snark and understand whats going on here.

People dont need to support your guy and fail to be able to rightfully tell you I told you so. They told you he would lose well before this and you wouldnt listen.

And if were wrong? Well, Ill breathe one single sigh of relief about the Supreme Court, but still be pretty fucking terrified about the future prospect of a Dem President with zero enthusiasm against an angry Republican Party.

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Seriously though, Democrats lose because they are so so so negative about other people. The way they talk, almost all of the candidates and their supporters are scum. Well, why would those supporters vote for your candidate if you talk about them like that?

Hillary at least understood she had made a mistake when she called 25% of the country deplorable, but today's Democrats call 50-80% of the country deplorable on a daily basis without any regret. I suppose they are so privileged they do not fear the consequences of losing elections.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

People dont need to support your guy and fail to be able to rightfully tell you I told you so. They told you he would lose well before this and you wouldnt listen.

this but with Bernie promising huge youth turnout and creating a new democratic base to overthrow the established voters and win the primary

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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

this but with Bernie promising huge youth turnout and creating a new democratic base to overthrow the established voters and win the primary

Are you going to ignore the literally unprecedented day before Super Tuesday Voltron?

If Ted Cruz, Kasich, and Rubio all dropped out to endorse Jeb (or rearrange these name so they fit better), do you think Trump would be President right now?

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red sox 777 posted...

The way they talk, almost all of the candidates and their supporters are scum. Well, why would those supporters vote for your candidate if you talk about them like that?

so they can stop being scum and be good instead


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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

People dont need to support your guy and fail to be able to rightfully tell you I told you so. They told you he would lose well before this and you wouldnt listen.

This may be difficult to understand, because you've regularly taken the position that a net zero impact is the same as a negative impact...but there is a DIFFERENCE between a net zero impact and a negative impact. If you treat Biden the same as Bernie: maybe some light campaigning, but mostly just going out and voting for Biden, and he STILL loses, then yes, you're right to be pissed and rub it in the faces of the DNC. But if you act as an antagonist, you constantly spread negative information about Biden in a way that you never would have done about Bernie, and effectively muddy the water to really depress turnout for Biden and THEN he loses, then yeah, you can still say "told you so". It's the equivalent of someone saying "You can't run a mile in five minutes", you accepting that challenge, and then the challenge bludgeons your kneecaps at the starting line, just to laugh at you for thinking you had a chance after the fact.

I KNOW you grasp the concept of what I'm telling you, Tony. Because one of the reasons I have been particularly irritated with you in particular was that post you made, I believe early last month. You made a comment about how if Bernie lost the presidential election, it would be because the DNC sandbagged him and screwed him over, not because he was a bad candidate, or his platform was bad. In that pessimistic scenario that you came up with (apropos of nothing, which seemed extremely odd at the time), you seemed to be of the mindset that it was possible (or even LIKELY) for the opposing faction within the party to deliberately tank the nominated candidate and cause their loss. It just seems fucked up to take the mindset of "we're deliberately going to sabotage you, so you lose and we get to gloat about being right, when had we done nothing and HADN'T sabotaged you, we would've (possibly) been wrong." Almost like you care more about being right and your SPECIFIC GUY than the actual ideology he represents.

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If you support Bernie but aren't going to be there for Biden in November you can go fuck yourself.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Are you going to ignore the literally unprecedented day before Super Tuesday Voltron?

If Ted Cruz, Kasich, and Rubio all dropped out to endorse Jeb (or rearrange these name so they fit better), do you think Trump would be President right now?

The numbers simply aren't there even without Voltron, dude. Trump and Biden were both still the frontrunners through January. Biden dropped nationally because the Feb primaries were a clown fiesta but still remained strong in the South. Bernie ceding the South to Biden is at LEAST as big a factor as Voltron was, probably more because the SC blowout is what assembled Voltron in the first place. Bernie banked on absolutely crushing the turnout but couldn't compete with normal-ass high turnout.

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

this but with Bernie promising huge youth turnout and creating a new democratic base to overthrow the established voters and win the primary

Are you going to ignore the literally unprecedented day before Super Tuesday Voltron?

If Ted Cruz, Kasich, and Rubio all dropped out to endorse Jeb (or rearrange these name so they fit better), do you think Trump would be President right now?

I mean it's definitely not unprecedented. Plenty of candidates have big wins in early primaries only to not be viable once the stragglers drop. You literally only have to go back to Rick Perry losing viability to everyone endorsing Romney in 2012.

Of course that only all the more supports the crux of your point.
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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Are you going to ignore the literally unprecedented day before Super Tuesday Voltron?

If Ted Cruz, Kasich, and Rubio all dropped out to endorse Jeb (or rearrange these name so they fit better), do you think Trump would be President right now?

you really need to stop living in hypothetical fantasies

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Also I do think the 4 Rs you listed are all way less popular and well-liked than Trump and attempts to unite behind one of them would bleed support to Trump. That's all speculative, though.

Main difference between those 5 and Bernie/Biden is that both Bernie and Biden are very well liked by voters. Bernie is a bit more polarizing with die-hards but still better than most politicians.

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Ainoxi posted...

If you support Bernie but aren't going to be there for Biden in November you can go fuck yourself.

This is my view on it too. I'm not thrilled about having to vote for Biden, but the alternative is so shitty that I'm still going to and encourage everyone I know to.

Sanders sucked at building a coalition and we'll all pay the price for it. But if your response to that is to say well I guess I'll let trump win? Then you never cared about Bernie's ideals to begin with, because trump is a far worse reality than Biden could ever be. A stupid moderate on the court would be leagues better than another Kavanaugh.

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If you tell me to go fuck myself for not voting Biden, then you can go fuck yourself.

The real enemy is our political system. If we keep tearing at each other we will always miss the point. While we argue the elites get their way every time.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

The real enemy is our political system. If we keep tearing at each other we will always miss the point. While we argue the elites get their way every time.

Well yeah, that's the point. Democrats can't agree on a universally ideal candidate to actually score a win and that's part of why the blandest oatmeal dude won so big.

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

The real enemy is our political system. If we keep tearing at each other we will always miss the point. While we argue the elites get their way every time.

But don't vote for third parties to help inch the system away from itself because it's pointless

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Not just that, but we are attacking people for who they vote for. They have the right to not vote Biden.

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MoogleKupo141 posted...

so they can stop being scum and be good instead

But why would they do that when they can just vote Trump instead and be happy?

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Grimlyn posted...

you really need to stop living in hypothetical fantasies

Its a hypothetical response to the hypothetical that losing a primary means you cant win a general.

Picture related:



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Question for SephG types:

If the cure is so much worse than the disease, why has the stock market stabilized?

Seems like our economy took a hit but still is leveling off at a net gain since the Trump inauguration and itll be fine
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it would've been so so so easy to convert me to a democrat at any point from about 2015 on

it also would've been really dang easy to get my vote in 2016 or 2020

time to research third parties again I guess

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Jakyl25 posted...

Question for SephG types:

If the cure is so much worse than the disease, why has the stock market stabilized?

Seems like our economy took a hit but still is leveling off at a net gain since the Trump inauguration and itll be fine

A 15% gain in 4 years won't cut it though. That's not "the strongest economy in the history of the world."

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I personally think it's much easier to push the party further left when we're not being systematically dismantled by right wing nationalists who are looting the country, and it's the moral thing to do in order to prevent further tragedies (such as this response to the ongoing virus). But hey, that's just me.

I honestly hope Biden fucking dies while in office, almost regardless of who his vp is. Rebuilding the country post-Trump isn't going to be easy, but anyone not Trump is progress in that direction.

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FFDragon posted...

But don't vote for third parties to help inch the system away from itself because it's pointless

Well the model for doing this on a national level is Bernie Sanders (and Donald Trump) so yeah it is kind of pointless right now. But it's reasonable on more local levels!

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Its a hypothetical response to the hypothetical that losing a primary means you cant win a general.

Bernie can't win among the group that actually likes progressives, why do you think he'd win among the general public where 6 in 10 have a negative view on socialism?

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Its a hypothetical response to the hypothetical that losing a primary means you cant win a general.

also I never said Bernie can't win the general. I think he would!

His strategy was bad to win a popularity contest among Democrats.

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TheRock1525 posted...

Bernie can't win among the group that actually likes progressives, why do you think he'd win among the general public where 6 in 10 have a negative view on socialism?

Bernie overwhelmingly won independents against Biden.

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https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/rubycramer/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-staffers

Most petty and vindictive people on the planet

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Bernie ran a bad campaign that failed to ever try to win over the older age group. He's got bad advisors somewhere that decided all his ads should feature nothing but young people.

This was his to lose and he lost.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/rubycramer/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-staffers

Most petty and vindictive people on the planet

This is one thing I completely agree with you on!

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ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/rubycramer/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-staffers

Most petty and vindictive people on the planet

Wow am I ever fucking ashamed of my 2016 vote.

https://babylonbee.com/news/bernie-sanders-drops-out-as-campaign-goals-of-locking-everyone-up-destroying-economy-already-achieved

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https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/coronavirus-april-rent-apartment-tenants

I'm sure this is perfectly fine and will cause no problems whatsoever.

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I'm trying to think of some rational explanation for why they would do that other than petty and vindictive, and nothing comes to mind.

Bernie's supporters are grieving over the end of his campaign. They're hurting. If those staffers cared about beating Trump, they wouldn't be holding up what's basically a big FUCK YOU HA HA HA sign to all of those people. Let his supporters process this, and start building bridges. Don't kick them while they're down.

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Can't get evicted if the courts aren't open :thinking:

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It sounds like it was one former Clinton staffer

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RaidenGarai posted...

I'm trying to think of some rational explanation for why they would do that other than petty and vindictive, and nothing comes to mind.

Bernie's supporters are grieving over the end of his campaign. They're hurting. If those staffers cared about beating Trump, they wouldn't be holding up what's basically a big FUCK YOU HA HA HA sign to all of those people. Let his supporters process this, and start building bridges. Don't kick them while they're down.

Because, as much as some people would like to claim otherwise, Biden and his team isn't in this "for the greater good", it's to get his fucking W, since just like Clinton it's "His turn".

UshiromiyaEva posted...

Because, as much as some people would like to claim otherwise, Biden and his team isn't in this "for the greater good", it's to get his fucking W, since just like Clinton it's "His turn".

???

This was a former Clinton staffer, not a Biden staffer.

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If Biden really wanted a W over anything he'd have run in 2016 and taken his free win.

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red13n posted...

If Biden really wanted a W over anything he'd have run in 2016 and taken his free win.

As someone who regularly calls Joe Windex and is having a real tough time bringing myself to vote for him now... he had a real good excuse last time

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LordoftheMorons posted...

???

This was a former Clinton staffer, not a Biden staffer.

The centrists are all one team now.

ok, so apparently if anyone in the world exists that wants biden to win is happy that sanders is out of the race, we should vote for trump?

that's some horrible logic. let people have their emotions

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SmartMuffin posted...

https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/coronavirus-april-rent-apartment-tenants

I'm sure this is perfectly fine and will cause no problems whatsoever.

Well yeah. That's what the government told them to do. They are making sure landlords are okay by placing the same moratorium on foreclosures. (And, if the banks are in trouble, they'll probably bail them out again).

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DoomTheGyarados posted...

Not just that, but we are attacking people for who they vote for. They have the right to not vote Biden.

They certainly do. But I think everyone else also has the right to point out that by doing so they are literally taking an action that aids Trump's re-election.

The fault of that is our political system but it's also the reality we're forced to deal with.

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Also all the people having twitter meltdowns over Bernie dropping out is hilarious because they should have realized a month ago when he actually suspended his campaign that his campaign was suspended.

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