Board 8 > If you use rewind/save state to finish a game, did you beat it?

(+) Yeah! (+)

MariaTaylor posted...

"you didn't beat the game if you used save states"

"beating the game without save states is not the same as beating it with save states"

such a gross misrepresentation! so dishonest!

Holy shit, you're just trolling, right?

I don't know if it's more disappointing to think you're trolling or to think you're not.

I was trying to be nice but at this point good riddance.

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I guess I'm just not as pedantic as you are

probably because I'm not as intellectually insecure

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MariaTaylor posted...

because you know I am 100% right.

MariaTaylor posted...

probably because I'm not as intellectually insecure

Yeah man, sure looks like it

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me being right about you acting sarcastic and dismissive makes me intellectually insecure? what are you even on about now?

dude, like I said above -- I honestly believe it's for the best that you commit to running away from this conversation like you've pretended to do multiple times now. every post you make is legitimately more lame than the last.

do you actually believe mike matei is sitting there with a dictionary on his lap, poring through each line and letter, going 'well, mm,, by the ummmm definition of the verb "beat" you did not,mmmm ... beat the game!!"

or do you understand what he actually meant by his tweet?

in your desperate attempts to take my posts out of context and "gotcha" me, you're just looking more sad and desperate with each one. you literally, clearly cannot handle this conversation.

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So do you also feel like you've been slapped in the face whenever someone says they've beat a game even though they used save states?
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You have just posted this exact same message - you may not post identical messages in a row

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MariaTaylor posted...

dude, like I said above -- I honestly believe it's for the best that you commit to running away from this conversation like you've pretended to do multiple times now. every post you make is legitimately more lame than the last.

MariaTaylor posted...

and since you have no response to that, all you can do is make another dismissive remark and run away.

So which is it you want me to do, exactly? First you belittle me for not running away, then you belittle me for running away, now you attempt to belittle me for not running away again? Surely this no win situation is not a setup born of your own insecurity in which you feverishly need to win every single argument in order to feel intellectually superior to everybody on B8!

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Mac Arrowny posted...

So do you also feel like you've been slapped in the face whenever someone says they've beat a game even though they used save states?

no, I don't care one way or the other. I don't even agree with mike's opinion.

funny enough, of the people involved in this discussion, I am actually the only one who met StealThisSheen's standard of keeping my opinion to myself. a standard which HE set, and couldn't even hold himself to.


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StealThisSheen posted...

So which is it you want me to do, exactly? First you belittle me for not running away, then you belittle me for running away, now you attempt to belittle me for not running away again? Surely this no win situation is not a setup born of your own insecurity in which you feverishly need to win every single argument in order to feel intellectually superior to everybody on B8!

get back to me in 48 hours when you stop crying, read your previous posts in this topic, and realize I am totally right about you being more disrespectful than mike's initial tweet.

then you'll understand why I said it was a good thing for you to step away from this discussion.


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StealThisSheen posted...

There's a difference between, say, bringing up your thoughts in a discussion like this, which is obviously fine, and just randomly deciding "I'm going to obnoxiously proclaim this out of nowhere."

to be fair, that goes for any opinion. being obnoxious is obnoxious.

if someone makes a topic "yay I beat SMB3" then I'm not going to enter just to dump on him (whether for save-state related reasons or otherwise)
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MariaTaylor posted...

get back to me in 48 hours when you stop crying, read your previous posts in this topic, and realize I am totally right about you being more disrespectful than mike's initial tweet.

then you'll understand why I said it was a good thing for you to step away from this discussion.

All I'm going to say is it's really, amazingly, hilariously telling that in an argument that started over "It's kinda being an asshole if you can't stop yourself from having to tell somebody why they're doing something wrong/why you're better/right/whatever," you can't stop yourself from repeatedly telling me that you're better/right.

Huh. There might be something, there.

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Drakeryn posted...

to be fair, that goes for any opinion. being obnoxious is obnoxious.

if someone makes a topic "yay I beat SMB3" then I'm not going to enter just to dump on him (whether for save-state related reasons or otherwise)

You're exactly right, and it's why I made a later post that basically said "If you can't express an opinion in a respectful manner, then you probably shouldn't express that opinion." Any opinion can be obnoxious if you want it to be. Like Leon said, it's about how you say something just as much as what you say.

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mm... well, I don't really have any problems with people thinking I'm an asshole. if you think I'm being an asshole here, fair enough. I don't think I've ever tried to be a nice person before. I'm certainly not gonna argue against it for 50 posts like you've done.

if I think it's unwarranted and someone points it out to me, I'll apologize and stop.

in this case though, I feel it's pretty warranted. I mean, look at how you're talking to me. am I really supposed to be polite in response to this kind of attitude?

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StealThisSheen posted...

"If you can't express an opinion in a respectful manner, then you probably shouldn't express that opinion."

^ the guy who responded disrespectfully to me exactly 1 reply after making this statement, and has still refused to acknowledge his own hypocrisy


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MariaTaylor posted...

in this case though, I feel it's pretty warranted. I mean, look at how you're talking to me. am I really supposed to be polite in response to this kind of attitude?

Why would I reply any differently when right out of the gate you were accusing me of saying things I never said (and you still never pointed out where I said them) and instantly telling me how right you were and wrong I was?

I'd say you have a point if I was the only one that had issue with the tone you took/the things you were saying, but I very much wasn't, so why would I be expected to react respectfully when you certainly were not?

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MariaTaylor posted...

^ the guy who responded disrespectfully to me exactly 1 reply after making this statement, and has still refused to acknowledge his own hypocrisy

I never once said I've been respectful in this argument, because this isn't simply a normal sharing of opinion since you jumped to personal attacks almost instantly.

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StealThisSheen posted...

I'd say you have a point if I was the only one that had issue with the tone you took/the things you were saying, but I very much wasn't, so why would I be expect to react respectfully when you certainly were not?

what do you mean 'why'? am I supposed to make your argument for you???

-you- are the one who set the standard that people shouldn't voice their opinions if they can't do so respectfully...

I have no constraint of needing to be respectful, because I am not someone who has ever placed value on that behavior. YOU set that constraint for YOURSELF.

you dunce

StealThisSheen posted...

I never once said I've been respectful in this argument, because this isn't simply a normal sharing of opinion since you jumped to personal attacks almost instantly.

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MariaTaylor posted...

because you know I am 100% right. you are being disrespectful,

looks like I was right after all!

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MariaTaylor posted...

what do you mean 'why'? am I supposed to make your argument for you???

-you- are the one who set the standard that people shouldn't voice their opinions if they can't do so respectfully...

I have no constraint of needing to be respectful, because I am not someone who has ever placed value on that behavior. YOU set that constraint for YOURSELF.

you dunce

There's a difference in presenting an opinion out of nowhere aimed to stir up controversy, and presenting opinions when somebody has purposely egged you into a fight.

I never once claimed to not be an asshole when I feel somebody has been an asshole to me first.

There would be a contradiction if I was repeatedly bringing up new opinions and going "Hey losers, if you don't rewind, you suck ass!" or "Hey morons, save states are the only valid way to play a game!"

But this isn't what's happening. You specifically and intentionally stirred up an aggressive difference of opinions into a full on argument/fight. Getting me to insult you because you insulted me and going "Gotcha! See, you're a hypocrite!" is not exactly the win you think it is.

I'm even admitting I've been an asshole in this argument, so I'm not even sure how I'm being hypocritical at this point?

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except when you go back and read my posts and see such harsh insults as

"the only difference is that you have decided that it 'is' beating a game, while your opposite side has decided that it 'isn't' beating a game."

and

"you are acting superior to mike matei. he is acting superior to people who use rewind states."

if this is your idea of a near instant personal attack that warrants sarcastically aggressive responses, I've got some bad news for you. you're more of an asshole than you think you are.


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StealThisSheen posted...

I'm even admitting I've been an asshole in this argument, so I'm not even sure how I'm being hypocritical at this point?

the last 50 posts when I said you were being an asshole and you kept being dismissive and refusing to acknowledge it until right now???

time is linear

context matters


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Did I beat this topic if I use rewinds/save states to go back to before I knew about it

Nah, if you used save states (other than maybe strictly as a temporary save while you go do something else?)/rewind, you didn't really beat it - for better or for worse. Might be the saner option in Ninja Gaiden's case, if only because sending you back to 6-1 if you lose to the final boss sequence blatantly breaks the game's own rules.

Still, that doesn't mean I've beaten Ninja Gaiden legit, and neither did anyone else who save stated before the final boss because they didn't want to deal with that bullshit. It seems ridiculous people are saying otherwise? It's okay to not beat games! It doesn't make you a bad person. Why lie?

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I voted "yes" not reading the context. I considered using save states as sort of an indefinite pause, in which case by all means, you beat the game. But if you used it to, say, repeat a difficult jump or level or boss over and over until you get it without losing any lives, that's cheating the system in a way that the original developer didn't intend. So, I mean, call it beating if you want, but I'd throw a big asterisk next to it.

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If it's to save progress, yes. If it's to avoid certain tedious things you know you can handle, yes. Otherwise, no.

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MariaTaylor posted...

I don't think I've ever tried to be a nice person before.

Coming in under the wire for understatement of the decade
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MariaTaylor posted...

"the only difference is that you have decided that it 'is' beating a game, while your opposite side has decided that it 'isn't' beating a game."

Maybe I can cut through some of the heat here: this is not an accurate read of the issue
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okay, I'll bite

how is it inaccurate? it seems spot-on to me
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Mike Matei has decided it isnt beating a game and he is weaponizing that belief

SEP has decided that anyone can determine their own game completion status and it doesnt matter as long as no one weaponizes their belief
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Like, the comeback against Matei is not Yes huh they did so beat the game!

Its Why do you care enough to try to put yourself above other people based on gatekeeping your hobby? Dont do that.
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If the manner and method of completion is relevant to a discussion, it can easily be dissected in said discussion.
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Thank you, Jakyl.

I'm obviously not as elegant at getting my point across clearly, especially when something has broken out into an argument.

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If someone was presenting the argument that Maria interprets your viewpoint as, it really would be correct to call them just as elitist as Matei

Like any hypothetical dork out there going I beat Battletoads quicker than you because I used a Game Genie, suck on that! is being just as toxic as Mike
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That's why I initially kept asking him to point out where I said that line he was accusing me of saying about "Using save states is the correct way to beat a game," because I was legitimately confused where it was coming from.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Like, the comeback against Matei is not Yes huh they did so beat the game!

Its Why do you care enough to try to put yourself above other people based on gatekeeping your hobby? Dont do that.

why do you care so much if mike matei says that you didn't beat the game?

I think calling his tweet "weaponizing" is more than a bit over dramatic.

as someone who ALSO said they did not agree with mike's tweet, and never bothered to bring it up until I was specifically asked (literally the exact behavior that StealThisSheen said would have been the proper way to act, despite not doing that himself) -- I have to say... there is definitely something to the fact that you guys felt the need to make an entire topic out of this, talking about how wrong mike is, and how anyone who thinks this way and says those things is an elitist asshole, they must only believe it because of a superiority complex, etc. etc.

the entire point of this topic is to make yourselves feel better about having the 'right' opinion, and to look down on people who think the way that mike does. mike is just your visible punching bag because he is the one who said it publicly. of course the dismissive elitists don't think they're being dismissive elitists.

but it sure is a WEIRD coincidence that the exact response to being accused of doing this... is you guys acting elitist and dismissing the opinion of anyone who accuses you of such.


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StealThisSheen also claims that there is nothing wrong with being the person who tells an elitist person they are being elitist...

... but then freaks out when I tell him he's being elitist?

apparently he does think there's something wrong with it!

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The response to Jakyl attempting to clarify things and help smooth things over is to... Double down on being an asshole and attempt to reignite an argument that has started to fizzle out.

Hmm.

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MariaTaylor posted...

but it sure is a WEIRD coincidence that the exact response to being accused of doing this... is you guys acting elitist and dismissing the opinion of anyone who accuses you of such.

I dont see how Im dismissing your opinion. I acknowledged that, given your interpretation of SEPs argument, your conclusions make sense.

MariaTaylor posted...

I have to say... there is definitely something to the fact that you guys felt the need to make an entire topic out of this, talking about how wrong mike is, and how anyone who thinks this way and says those things is an elitist a******, they must only believe it because of a superiority complex, etc. etc.

Its mostly because accessibility options in games is a hot button issue at the moment, and most people see it as a very positive, inclusive thing. Hes a person with influence and clout directly arguing against a progressive issue in the industry.
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MariaTaylor posted...

why do you care so much if mike matei says that you didn't beat the game?

Because its something people like myself have strong feelings about and its interesting to dissect where people are coming from

I could very easily say why do you care so much about why we care so much if Mike Matei says that you didnt beat a game? Presumably because you think our interest in the topic is worth discussing, no?
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Yes.

People who say otherwise are gatekeepers. They're way too hardheaded and care too much about what other people enjoy doing - and how they play - in their spare time.

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Jakyl25 posted...

Its mostly because accessibility options in games is a hot button issue at the moment, and most people see it as a very positive, inclusive thing. Hes a person with influence and clout directly arguing against a progressive issue in the industry.

you make his opinion matter -more- by acknowledging his opinion and acting like it matters. you are effectively socially signaling to anyone who doesn't know who mike matei is that he is someone worth listening to, even if your intention is the opposite. worse, you are signaling the idea that someone else other than myself can even decide what counts as me beating a game.

Jakyl25 posted...

I could very easily say why do you care so much about why we care so much if Mike Matei says that you didnt beat a game?

because I think people already give too much power to categorical definitions, specifically the idea that somehow you can argue about the 'correct' interpretation about what counts as beating or not beating a game -- a practice that both Mike Matei AND you guys are engaging in. when in reality the act of "beating" a game has no intrinsic merit to begin with, and a person does not need permission from the internet to believe that using save states is valid OR that using save states is invalid. because their belief should only influence their own behavior, anyway.

words are only useful because they allow us to communicate ideas to each other. once you start enslaving yourselves to the definition of words, and giving other people the power to decide the subjective value of those categorical definitions, you sacrifice your own freedom of thought. and, in some cases, action as well.

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If they ever do a poll on whether you beat a particular game or not in this board I know it'll be very misleading.

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MariaTaylor posted...

when in reality the act of "beating" a game has no intrinsic merit to begin with, and a person does not need permission from the internet to believe that using save states is valid OR that using save states is invalid. because their belief should only influence their own behavior, anyway.

Thats...exactly what we are arguing. Im not sure how you missed that and think we are arguing something else.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Thats...exactly what we are arguing. Im not sure how you missed that and think we are arguing something else.

I think the disconnect is that we're arguing it's not cool to weaponize the opinion, belittle people over it, and so on, whereas he's saying "Suck it up and ignore it."

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StealThisSheen posted...

I think the disconnect is that we're arguing it's not cool to weaponize the opinion, belittle people over it, and so on, whereas he's saying "Suck it up and ignore it."

And really I think we are mostly laughing at him for caring so much, honestly? Kind of like Maria is! Were not so far apart here.
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MariaTaylor posted...

you are effectively socially signaling to anyone who doesn't know who mike matei is that he is someone worth listening to,

Also I do agree with this, because he is someone worth knowing! Its not like I want to cancel Mike Matei over this. I want him to use his clout to do better than be exclusionary.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Thats...exactly what we are arguing. Im not sure how you missed that and think we are arguing something else.

not exactly. there are some subtle but important differences, which I have already outlined in my post above.

the word 'or' in my post is very important.

by engaging in the debate with "mike," you have perpetuated the debate. (for the more pedantic, I know you're crawling all over board 8, yes, I know they are not LITERALLY arguing with mike matei!)

mike's opinion is his argument.
your argument is that MIKE'S opinion is wrong.

my argument is that neither of your opinions matter -- even if I disagree with mike and you also disagree with mike. I never joined that discussion, because I also think ME disagreeing with mike does not matter. this is why I have only brought it up when it was specifically relevant.

like you claim that your argument is the same as mine, that a person does not need permission from the internet for their beliefs... and yet we have a whole topic about how mike's opinion is wrong. you -are- challenging his permission to hold those beliefs!

but, more importantly, to reiterate what I've already said above... having this discussion with "mike" at all means that you believe that it's a valid discussion. I believe it is NOT a valid discussion. that is the difference between us.

also keep in mind my initial post was not directed specifically at you. so using your own conduct as a defense for my earlier criticisms is a bit unfair. and tying your own behavior to StealThisSheen and others by saying "we" is also a very unfair and difficult way of arguing. it encourages me to give examples of things that they have done, to which you can always respond by saying "well I haven't done that." though you implicitly took on the burden of their behavior when you said "we."


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Jakyl25 posted...

Also I do agree with this, because he is someone worth knowing! Its not like I want to cancel Mike Matei over this. I want him to use his clout to do better than be exclusionary.

see, in that case we actually fundamentally disagree.

because I don't think anyone should listen to mike matei just because he's mike matei!


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MariaTaylor posted...

like you claim that your argument is the same as mine, that a person does not need permission from the internet for their beliefs... and yet we have a whole topic about how mike's opinion is wrong. you -are- challenging his permission to hold those beliefs!

Have you heard of the Paradox of Tolerance?

"In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance."

In my mind thats what people in this topic are doing here by rebutting Mateis opinion
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MariaTaylor posted...

my argument is that neither of your opinions matter -- even if I disagree with mike and you also disagree with mike. I never joined that discussion, because I also think ME disagreeing with mike does not matter. this is why I have only brought it up when it was specifically relevant.

I feel like thats a bit too close to nihilism for my tastes

MariaTaylor posted...

also keep in mind my initial post was not directed specifically at you. so using your own conduct as a defense for my earlier criticisms is a bit unfair. and tying your own behavior to StealThisSheen and others by saying "we" is also a very unfair and difficult way of arguing. it encourages me to give examples of things that they have done, to which you can always respond by saying "well I haven't done that." though you implicitly took on the burden of their behavior when you said "we."

Fair
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Jakyl25 posted...

Like, the comeback against Matei is not Yes huh they did so beat the game!

Its Why do you care enough to try to put yourself above other people based on gatekeeping your hobby? Dont do that.

huh, okay

I feel like a lot of posts in this topic were "Yes they did beat the game, and you should stop gatekeeping aka having the wrong opinion"

(but I was wrong about SEP's view so I could be wrong about the others too)
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