Poll of the Day > American woman gets in huge shit for calling a German Police officer a Nazi

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/01/26/german-police-sue-american-woman-slander-calling-them-nazis/1068397001/

Not really the best thing to call a German officer, and being in Germany that is illegal.
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The result of the altercation: preliminary criminal proceedings against the woman on suspicion of slander, plus a $260-bill (207) upfront for any subsequent legal expenses.

>Object to being called fascists
>Part of a government openly against free speech
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Can't you literally go to jail for mentioning Nazis in Germany?
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Mario_VS_DK posted...

Can't you literally go to jail for mentioning Nazis in Germany?

Think it depends on the context of said mention. But for the most part using anything related to the Nazis is a bit no no in germany.
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Mario_VS_DK posted...

Can't you literally go to jail for mentioning Nazis in Germany?

It's Voldemort over there.
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lol Germany is stupid when it comes to nazis.

But this woman sounds like she deserved it, people that refer to everyone they dont like as nazis are dumb.

LOL, not allowing people to say nazi makes them more like nazis.
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VeeVees posted...

LOL, not allowing people to say nazi makes them more like nazis.

No, the Nazis did like when people said Nazi
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Mario_VS_DK posted...

Can't you literally go to jail for mentioning Nazis in Germany?

yea. I actually was reading a novel at the time when I took a trip to Europe. it was this book

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Presence_of_Mine_Enemies

and it has a swastika on the cover. I was pretty nervous and kept the book hidden the whole time I was in germany. the book is actually anti nazi and the main characters are jews but I knew if anyone saw the cover they would freak out before asking questions.

VeeVees posted...

LOL, not allowing people to say nazi makes them more like nazis.

Germans don't like people making light of the Nazis and what they did wrong.

Lil69Leo posted...

VeeVees posted...

LOL, not allowing people to say nazi makes them more like nazis.

Germans don't like people making light of the Nazis and what they did wrong.

Yeah, so let's make it illegal to say it. Sure doesn't sound fascist at all.
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VeeVees posted...

Lil69Leo posted...

VeeVees posted...

LOL, not allowing people to say nazi makes them more like nazis.

Germans don't like people making light of the Nazis and what they did wrong.

Yeah, so let's make it illegal to say it. Sure doesn't sound fascist at all.

fascist is not equal to authoritarian.. They could be authoritarian left or authoritarian centrist.
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irony gold. in US, liberals throw Nazi slurs around like they have Tourette's. Lo and behold, someone got in deep trouble for using that term to slander others in the birthplace of Nazism.
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Amuseum posted...

birthplace of Nazism.

The birthplace is the NAZI PARTY (guys, it's not an ism) was a beer hall - ... therefor beer is NAZIST!
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Lokarin posted...

VeeVees posted...

LOL, not allowing people to say nazi makes them more like nazis.

No, the Nazis did like when people said Nazi

He was specifically referring to the lack of freedoms, not the actual preference for the language. And the actual Nazis would have changed their name if they thought it benefited them.
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Zeus posted...

The result of the altercation: preliminary criminal proceedings against the woman on suspicion of slander, plus a $260-bill (207) upfront for any subsequent legal expenses.

>Object to being called fascists
>Part of a government openly against free speech

Because equating the banning of a hate group and restrictions on offensive speech with an ideology responsible for tens of millions of deaths isn't sensationalist at all.
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darkknight109 posted...

Zeus posted...

The result of the altercation: preliminary criminal proceedings against the woman on suspicion of slander, plus a $260-bill (207) upfront for any subsequent legal expenses.

>Object to being called fascists
>Part of a government openly against free speech

Because equating the banning of a hate group and restrictions on offensive speech with an ideology responsible for tens of millions of deaths isn't sensationalist at all.

Yeah, I bet you'd love to ban "offensive speech".
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ITT: No nuance exists
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VeeVees posted...

Lil69Leo posted...

VeeVees posted...

LOL, not allowing people to say nazi makes them more like nazis.

Germans don't like people making light of the Nazis and what they did wrong.

Yeah, so let's make it illegal to say it. Sure doesn't sound fascist at all.

they want nothing to do with that anymore, so the best way to stop it is to prohibit even saying it.
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Metal_Mario99 posted...

darkknight109 posted...

Zeus posted...

The result of the altercation: preliminary criminal proceedings against the woman on suspicion of slander, plus a $260-bill (207) upfront for any subsequent legal expenses.

>Object to being called fascists
>Part of a government openly against free speech

Because equating the banning of a hate group and restrictions on offensive speech with an ideology responsible for tens of millions of deaths isn't sensationalist at all.

Yeah, I bet you'd love to ban "offensive speech".

Nice strawman argument, but you completely missed my point.

Whether you agree with Germany's laws on free speech or not (and, for the record, I never voiced my opinion on the matter one way or another), implying that a country is fascist because you're not allowed to call someone a Nazi is a completely ridiculous equivocation.
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helIy posted...

VeeVees posted...

Lil69Leo posted...

VeeVees posted...

LOL, not allowing people to say nazi makes them more like nazis.

Germans don't like people making light of the Nazis and what they did wrong.

Yeah, so let's make it illegal to say it. Sure doesn't sound fascist at all.

they want nothing to do with that anymore, so the best way to stop it is to prohibit even saying it.

you can go too far though. had I been caught with my book, I might have been in trouble, even though it's just an alternate history novel. anyone that reads the book knows that nazis are the villains just like they are in that amazon show where they conquer NYC. but the german police would just look at the cover and throw me in prison

Zikten posted...

helIy posted...

VeeVees posted...

Lil69Leo posted...

VeeVees posted...

LOL, not allowing people to say nazi makes them more like nazis.

Germans don't like people making light of the Nazis and what they did wrong.

Yeah, so let's make it illegal to say it. Sure doesn't sound fascist at all.

they want nothing to do with that anymore, so the best way to stop it is to prohibit even saying it.

you can go too far though. had I been caught with my book, I might have been in trouble, even though it's just an alternate history novel. anyone that reads the book knows that nazis are the villains just like they are in that amazon show where they conquer NYC. but the german police would just look at the cover and throw me in prison

Was the book called "Fatherland"? That was a pretty good alt-universe novel in which the Nazis won WWII and, a couple decades later, a Gestapo agent is led to find out the truth about the Holocaust.
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darkknight109 posted...

Metal_Mario99 posted...

darkknight109 posted...

Zeus posted...

The result of the altercation: preliminary criminal proceedings against the woman on suspicion of slander, plus a $260-bill (207) upfront for any subsequent legal expenses.

>Object to being called fascists
>Part of a government openly against free speech

Because equating the banning of a hate group and restrictions on offensive speech with an ideology responsible for tens of millions of deaths isn't sensationalist at all.

Yeah, I bet you'd love to ban "offensive speech".

Nice strawman argument, but you completely missed my point.

Whether you agree with Germany's laws on free speech or not (and, for the record, I never voiced my opinion on the matter one way or another), implying that a country is fascist because you're not allowed to call someone a Nazi is a completely ridiculous equivocation.

And implying that someone is fascist because they don't want women to slaughter their unborn children is also a ridiculous equivocation.
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In the Presence of Mine Enemies. it's about a Jewish family living in Berlin in 2010 in a timeline where WW2 was won by Hitler. the world thinks Jews are extinct and they survive by hiding in plain sight, blending in with German society

Metal_Mario99 posted...

darkknight109 posted...

Metal_Mario99 posted...

darkknight109 posted...

Zeus posted...

The result of the altercation: preliminary criminal proceedings against the woman on suspicion of slander, plus a $260-bill (207) upfront for any subsequent legal expenses.

>Object to being called fascists
>Part of a government openly against free speech

Because equating the banning of a hate group and restrictions on offensive speech with an ideology responsible for tens of millions of deaths isn't sensationalist at all.

Yeah, I bet you'd love to ban "offensive speech".

Nice strawman argument, but you completely missed my point.

Whether you agree with Germany's laws on free speech or not (and, for the record, I never voiced my opinion on the matter one way or another), implying that a country is fascist because you're not allowed to call someone a Nazi is a completely ridiculous equivocation.

And implying that someone is fascist because they don't want women to slaughter their unborn children is also a ridiculous equivocation.

And I've never done that, even accounting for your overdramatic language, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.
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darkknight109 posted...

Metal_Mario99 posted...

darkknight109 posted...

Metal_Mario99 posted...

darkknight109 posted...

Zeus posted...

The result of the altercation: preliminary criminal proceedings against the woman on suspicion of slander, plus a $260-bill (207) upfront for any subsequent legal expenses.

>Object to being called fascists
>Part of a government openly against free speech

Because equating the banning of a hate group and restrictions on offensive speech with an ideology responsible for tens of millions of deaths isn't sensationalist at all.

Yeah, I bet you'd love to ban "offensive speech".

Nice strawman argument, but you completely missed my point.

Whether you agree with Germany's laws on free speech or not (and, for the record, I never voiced my opinion on the matter one way or another), implying that a country is fascist because you're not allowed to call someone a Nazi is a completely ridiculous equivocation.

And implying that someone is fascist because they don't want women to slaughter their unborn children is also a ridiculous equivocation.

And I've never done that, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.

Well, everybody on this board loves abortion, so I figured it was a safe bet.
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darkknight109 posted...

Nice strawman argument, but you completely missed my point.

Whether you agree with Germany's laws on free speech or not (and, for the record, I never voiced my opinion on the matter one way or another), implying that a country is fascist because you're not allowed to call someone a Nazi is a completely ridiculous equivocation.

Infringing on someones free speech is like, the most fascist thing you can do to someone short of putting them in jail or murdering them. If they can't say what they want, they might as well not exist.
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RoboXgp89 posted...

cops and ICE are definitely nazi's
maybe not exterminators but everything else checks out

No. No, they really aren't.
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Metal_Mario99 posted...

Well, everybody on this board loves abortion, so I figured it was a safe bet.

So that's two strawmans (strawmen?) so far - care to go for the hat trick?

Smarkil posted...

Infringing on someones free speech is like, the most fascist thing you can do to someone short of putting them in jail or murdering them.

Yeah, sure, telling someone they're not allowed to slander other people is totally the most fascist thing you can do. Other than instilling a totalitarian state, fostering a militaristic culture, committing acts of political violence, conducting purges of the opposition, and exiling or murdering those who do not match a nationalist, race-centric model of "the ideal".

But yeah, telling people they're not allowed to frivolously and baselessly make use of one of the darkest monikers in human history is totally comparable. I mean, it's not like the US has libel and slander laws, right? Because that would totes be fascist, yo.
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darkknight109 posted...

But yeah, telling people they're not allowed to frivolously and baselessly make use of one of the darkest monikers in human history is totally comparable. I mean, it's not like the US has libel and slander laws, right? Because that would totes be fascist, yo.

We definitely don't have them for the word "Nazi". Otherwise there'd be no more Democrats left to vote for horrible politicians.
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darkknight109 posted...

Yeah, sure, telling someone they're not allowed to slander other people is totally the most fascist thing you can do. Other than instilling a totalitarian state, fostering a militaristic culture, committing acts of political violence, conducting purges of the opposition, and exiling or murdering those who do not match a nationalist, race-centric model of "the ideal".

How the fuck do you think it gets like that? Does someone just pop in and say "LOL IMA PURGE YOU NOW"

It takes years of silencing opposition and ensuring no one can or will speak out against your insane ideas. Do you think Hitler just popped in and everyone was just totally cool with him killing millions of Jews?

darkknight109 posted...

But yeah, telling people they're not allowed to frivolously and baselessly make use of one of the darkest monikers in human history is totally comparable. I mean, it's not like the US has libel and slander laws, right? Because that would totes be fascist, yo.

Calling someone a nazi doesn't fall under the definition of libel or slander. Especially not for someone who is either A. a public figure or B. an authority figure particularly as it pertains to the government.

If that were the case, about 150 million people or more would be in a civil suit against Donald Trump.

Libel and slander are very difficult to prove. Moreover, libel and slander cases are fucking civil. Not criminal.
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One thing many American travelers need to realize is that freedom of speech laws can be vastly different in other countries - including other first world countries where you may assume you're free to speak your mind.

You may not agree with it... but you're also a foreigner and by traveling to a place you agree to abide by their laws. Ignorance of a law is not a defense for breaking it.

For the most part, if you follow two very simple rules you'll be fine 99.9% of time.

1) Don't disparage groups of people, no matter your thoughts on them. If you see a gay or interracial couple in public and don't approve of it, mind your own business or go elsewhere.
2) Don't directly insult people... most definitely don't insult public servants. That will never end well for you, especially at an airport.

If you can follow those two simple rules, you'll find your travel experience will go much more smoothly.
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VeeVees posted...

Lil69Leo posted...

VeeVees posted...

LOL, not allowing people to say nazi makes them more like nazis.

Germans don't like people making light of the Nazis and what they did wrong.

Yeah, so let's make it illegal to say it. Sure doesn't sound fascist at all.

They take "never again" pretty seriously, as they should. It's illegal to display the Nazi flag/swastika anywhere, except in art form.

I honestly don't mind it, in their case. But I get a certain form of glee of having someone carelessly call someone a Nazi get arrested over it.
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Smarkil posted...

Calling someone a nazi doesn't fall under the definition of libel or slander.

It does in Germany.

Smarkil posted...

Libel and slander are very difficult to prove. Moreover, libel and slander cases are fucking civil. Not criminal.

And you'll note that the woman at the centre of this story is being sued by the police department, not charged with a crime.

Smarkil posted...

How the fuck do you think it gets like that? Does someone just pop in and say "LOL IMA PURGE YOU NOW"

It takes years of silencing opposition and ensuring no one can or will speak out against your insane ideas. Do you think Hitler just popped in and everyone was just totally cool with him killing millions of Jews?

More or less, yeah, actually. The 1929 German election was in essence the start of Nazism's true rise to power, and the country became a fascist dictatorship within a few years. By contrast, the laws you're objecting to have been on the books for decades and, last I checked, democracy in Germany is alive and well. I'm pretty sure if your alarmism on this was grounded in reality, something probably would have happened by now.

Not to mention, I suspect the atrocious state of Germany's economy in the post-WWI years and the frankly moronic decision by the allies to seek reparations from Germany had a lot more to do with the rise of fascism in Germany than libel laws, but that's me...
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dioxxys posted...

lol Germany is stupid when it comes to nazis.

But this woman sounds like she deserved it, people that refer to everyone they dont like as nazis are dumb.

This. It has gotten out of hand.
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Does any first world country allow slander?
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Kyuubi4269 posted...

Does any first world country allow slander?

You can slander all you want in 'murica, but you can't even do the smallest token amount of libel.
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Gotta know the laws of a place if youre gonna visit there

Their house, their rules
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I've never been to Germany despite my Uncle being German(he's lived there most his life). Still this doesn't come as a surprise.
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Ogurisama posted...

Mario_VS_DK posted...

Can't you literally go to jail for mentioning Nazis in Germany?

Think it depends on the context of said mention. But for the most part using anything related to the Nazis is a bit no no in germany.

jailing people for talking about controversial things sounds like something the nazis woulda done tho.
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Good luck suing somebody who's just going to return to their home country a few days later.
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Revelation34 posted...

Good luck suing somebody who's just going to return to their home country a few days later.

It's not nearly as hard to do that as you're making it out to be.

Once someone has been served with court papers, they're required to show up or at least make an application to the court for an alternate date. If you don't show up in court, the case is typically automatically awarded to the other party and they can then apply for the judgement to be enforced against you in your home country (I don't know if Germany and the US specifically have an agreement in place to do that, but most first-world countries do so I would be surprised if they didn't - basically they just have to go to court in the US and explain that you were successfully sued and unless you have a good defence as to why the judgement shouldn't be enforced, the court will accept the ruling and you'll be required to pay the same as if you were sued in the States).
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darkknight109 posted...

telling people they're not allowed to frivolously and baselessly make use of one of the darkest monikers in human history

I don't get this. it's similar to the "n" word, and similar to religious people "giving power to words", like saying "the Lord's name in vain", or having knee-jerk reactions against swearing, or getting super offended at words like "demon" or "magic".

the problem with this attitude is that it *preserves* the meaning of the word. you're giving power to the word by treating it as something important. if you want to devalue the word, then let people use it haphazardly. you're actually *empowering* the word by reacting to it. "demons" are only deathly scary to superstitious religious people because of the importance that *they* inject into the concept. that's why Doom is so awesome. the right attitude is to not let the concept control you with fear, but to kick its ass and treat it with as much lack of respect as possible.
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Sahuagin posted...

the problem with this attitude is that it *preserves* the meaning of the word.

That's the specific intent though. They want people to associate it with a very specific and evil ideology, so that people don't trivialize it or romanticize it, as has been occurring with alarming frequency in the United States.
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Ogurisama posted...

in Germany that is illegal.

srs?
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Blighboy posted...

That's the specific intent though. They want people to associate it with a very specific and evil ideology, so that people don't trivialize it or romanticize it, as has been occurring with alarming frequency in the United States.

k yeah. I guess my example of superstitions doesn't work because superstitions *shouldn't* be taken seriously, and it's the superstitious themselves that keep it alive.

in the case of nazis and the (other) "n" word, it's not a fictitious evil, it's a real one. instead we have the opposite problem: people will trivialize something they should in fact take seriously.
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Blighboy posted...

Sahuagin posted...

the problem with this attitude is that it *preserves* the meaning of the word.

That's the specific intent though. They want people to associate it with a very specific and evil ideology, so that people don't trivialize it or romanticize it, as has been occurring with alarming frequency in the United States.

Exactly.

The comparison with a racial slur isn't really a good one because that's used as an insult to degrade people - depowering those words isn't necessarily a bad thing, although that does risk forgetting or trivializing the evil that is behind them.

Nazi, on the other hand, isn't a slur, it's a real name of a real group of people who are responsible for one of the darkest moments of our entire species. Depowering it distorts the message - it makes the Nazis seem less like truly evil human beings and more like Saturday morning cartoon characters (or just a random term for someone we don't like). Germany is more sensitive to that than most, for obvious reasons.
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I know guys that were stationed there and couldnt emphasize how important it was to not get shit faced and fuck yo and mention anything nazi related because apparently the polizei will fuck you up.
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Cacciato posted...

I know guys that were stationed there and couldnt emphasize how important it was to not get shit faced and fuck yo and mention anything nazi related because apparently the polizei will fuck you up.

see I just don't it. I understand why they would want to punish people promoting it, and saying are one. stuff like that. but if you just comment on it. just say the word nazi or talk about it in the past tense or whatever, you shouldn't go to prison for that. in america, if I had an alternate history novel where the south won the civil war, I wouldn't be scared that some cop sees the book and arrests me. I just think they enforce it too harshly. it's like they want the entire country to pretend it never happened. you can't even talk about it at all. which is actually what could make it come back some day. you are supposed to follow the slogan of "never forget" to prevent bad things from rehappening

Yeah plus I mean Im sure not all Nazis were bad. Im sure some of them raised puppies and there was the one that didnt narc on Adrien Brody in The Pianist.
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