Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 419: Global Force Total Nonstop Impact Wrestling

(+) Yeah! (+)

Lopen posted...

Also I was referring to the first sentence in voltch's original post, which is what started this conversation to begin with.

Oh the one where I quoted the second sentence?
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Yeah. The one where you quoted the second sentence and totally misunderstood the point of the post which was clearly explained in the first sentence, then had an "aha!" moment where you repeated the first sentence later. That post.
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Actually I take that back. This conversation began with talking about bad racist writing in WWE, which admittedly was a better topic.
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Lopen posted...

Yeah. The one where you quoted the second sentence and totally misunderstood the point of the post which was clearly explained in the first sentence, then had an "aha!" moment where you repeated the first sentence later. That post.

Well I disagree entirely with that, obviously. My post was in fact directed at people who I believe have had an in-house perception of success thanks to Triple H (Seth Rollins, Dean Ambrose and Roman Reigns are perfect examples). He also has had failures, but when people like AJ are brought up, I feel it's entirely irrelevant to the topic because they have no real connection to the Triple H machine.

When I said that I don't understand why someone needs to go to bat for three guys who are successful, I meant that there never was a need for them to have Triple H's support, although Joe most certainly did have said support. AJ carved the path himself, and Braun probably had a combination of Vince love and Triple H love backing him, but I really don't think it matters one way or the other because in the end the fans really got behind him.

Also, the sentence about Cruiserweights could be possibly ignored because it seems like Triple H himself ditched the Cruiserweight notion as none of them have remained on NXT as he said they would over and over again last year after the Classic. Constantly stating that they would appear both on RAW and NXT to supplement their new show.
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Well the point is that the most successful "Triple H guy" right now is Kevin Owens, who while having a respectable amount of success pales in comparison to the real big guys, who are relevant to paint a picture of the top level that even Triple H's most successful shill has not reached.

Then you move along to Triple H's colossal failures like the cruiserweight division, and it becomes doubtful whether Triple H's word means much at all. Like it probably means you'll be given a chance, but once they're on Raw you've expended the influence of Triple H and Triple H's word isn't really helping much at all.
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I agree that on RAW Triple H's word seems to mean very little. But I'm also not even sure how true that is. I think Triple H burns Vince constantly because his vision of his guys is not the same as Vince's vision of the same guys. I think Triple H pushed Jason Jordan - which admittedly to me felt like a smart choice - and Jordan has already started to collapse because RAW doesn't get what Jason Jordan is. Now that Triple H (supposedly) is taking a more active hand in Smackdown (this last week really felt like it, although Jinder is the Vince Project), I have to say that Owens' success is probably owed to Triple H. He's got the marquee storyline.

On RAW, Bayley has failed. Sasha has failed. Joe has found success (but he would have anyways). Seth Rollins and Dean Ambrose are becoming toothless and dull. At the same time, non Triple H guys are equally as dull. Who is exciting on RAW? Braun, a character that seems to only be well-written because he's a teflon dummy that charges at everything and wins (and also feuded with the most hated guy on the show). If you book Asuka like she was booked, it will work. Let's be honest - the APWT doesn't like Nakamura that much anymore, but he is over with the crowds in the same way he was over in NXT (not to the same degree but even in NXT he started to lose some of the massive support he had at the start).

My point is, Triple H shows Vince these shiny toys, but Vince doesn't get how they work. Then he throws them aside when he can't make them do the cool things Triple H showed him on the playground. I don't think it's a Triple H thing, I think it's a Vince and Creative thing. Probably a Kevin Dunn thing too. I think Triple H's backing is pretty important, and it can consistently poise people for the push that could make their career - it's the failing machine at the top that can't figure out how to get people over.
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I still love that of all of Triple H's territory-claiming selfies with NXT talent, Nakamura is the only one who comes across like a boss in his photo instead of a sycophantic "thank you for this opportunity Uncle H" pose

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/fd/62/b8/fd62b8112b4cfddcf3c8ead10f0538f8.jpg
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Heck even at just the nxt level, triple h has completely misread the lucha market.

Kalisto, cien almas and gran metalik are tremendous talents. He brought them in and dropped them at the same speed russo dropped them.

His influence works very well with an audience that watches all the gifs, frequents forums and reads dirtsheets, but he hasn't pushed a pet project to that next level.
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voltch posted...

His influence works very well with an audience that watches all the gifs, frequents forums and reads dirtsheets

Yeah and those people ignore Lucha

Dave pimps CMLL all the time but people think he only has eyes for NJPW.

I guess smarks don't appreciate any style that's not risking paralysis
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Hey, some people watch Lucha! Underground
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What works on nxt and won't necessarily work on raw or smackdown.

Nxt caters to an audience thats not just smaller, but has different taste.

Raw has more women, young kids and older people watching.

Some would clearly work for both, but nxt isn't really necessary for a lot of these guys.
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I tried watching Lucha on TV over the years pretty often actually. It's kinda garbage. It's always just super chaotic mish mosh of dudes jumping onto other dudes, where in like 80% of the matches the ref interferes with the finish in some way (either by getting bumped or more often by being a corrupt ref since I think one of their normal refs is actually a long time corrupt ref and this is known, since it always seems to be the same one) or there isn't actually a finish.

That being said it's possible the majority has been AAA. CMLL might be significantly better so this might be me watching TNA and saying wrestling in the US is kinda garbage.
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I've watched several TripleManias, and they kinda seem to always suck. I don't know if that's representative of AAA as a whole though. But I'd believe it.
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AAA is so disorganized that The Crash exists as a safe haven away from AAA mismanagement so yeah, try them
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That ref is tirantes and AAA with all the infighting has suffered horribly.

CMLL has excellent talent, currently suffering from political turmoil, but super safe booking.
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CMLL is unfortunately less accessible but I do kinda wanna watch it just to see what actual good lucha looks like that isn't under the earth.
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I know CMLL friday night shows used to be easily accessible.

Havent watched since kamaitachi and la sombra left though.
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I think there's some stuff on NXT that WILL work but they don't really go through with it very well or at all.

Like Ascension is a very good example of something that would have succeeded if they didn't get their legs cut from under them. I'd also say that American Alpha should have worked too.
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American alpha was considered bullet proof and that was on SD!

Triple h comes off as really bored of cool things once he loses 100% control.

Feels like half the things he cares about is just to find stuff for stephanie to insert herself into.
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I watched CMLL Friday Night a month or so back on their official stream.

It was live though. Not sure if they are archived.
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Easily streamable? I'm there. I don't really care about archives since I don't have investment in the product-- I just want to see lucha that doesn't suck.
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Yeah i literally just clicked on a link Meltzer tweeted and there it was
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Whats funny about AAA/Lucha Underground is its the same talent with not even necessarily BETTER but more CONSISTENT managemeny ane the product is far superior for it.

Its the smackdown effect amped up to 11.
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The product does also bleed money though
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https://twitter.com/tomblargh/status/910642442772369408

Did you know Bully Ray is the greatest trainer ever? According to him!
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Jakyl25 posted...

The product does also bleed money though

Is there something about the shitty AAA product that makes it inherently more profitable?

My point is its fully possible for AAA to have a great product just certain intransigent factors hold it back.
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The tradition of televised Lucha Libre in Mexico makes it much easier for them to get a good TV deal, at least.

LU still only does half the viewership of Impact
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I don't get it.

Need someone with Treasury experience, but DDT appears to have been bought by a very strong company.

Much bigger than NJPW's parent company.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

I really don't think it matters one way or the other because in the end the fans really got behind him

Poor cesaro
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This FloSlam/Gabe drama is getting messy. They just canceled their airing of tonight's EVOLVE.

What is it with companies being so easily swindled like this?
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Wrestlers are amazing at working the marks.
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So if I'm reading this right.

DDT content will be free on the new company's streaming service and registration to the servicd itself is free.

This 800m usd quartely revenue figure has me very cautious.

Sinclair has billions too, but they didn't turn roh into the new wcw.
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Jakyl25 posted...

This FloSlam/Gabe drama is getting messy. They just canceled their airing of tonight's EVOLVE.

What is it with companies being so easily swindled like this?

What's happening?
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When they hooked up last year, Gabe told them "Yeah EVOLVE gets like 5000 iPPV buys every show."

They literally took him on his word.

Putting them on the FloSlam Network where you just pay $20 monthly for full access instead of $20 per Show has thus far only netted 2000 subscribers.

Now they're suing Gabe for $1,000,000 and he wants out so he can hook back up with WWE. But they won't let him out without paying, and now they're taking the step to stop airing his shows starting with tonight's EVOLVE.

They're that pissed off that they'll hurt their own service to back him into a corner where he has to pay up or his product will die.
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So like

He's saying that his iPPVs get 5000 buys a month and they got 2000 extra subscribers from adding Evolve

I feel like that's not enough evidence to prove he was lying about the iPPV numbers. Some people just don't want subscriptions! Ask WWE who has been making fun of PPV customers forever!
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No, he was lying. ROH doesn't do 5k on iPPV, you think EVOLVE does?
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Anyway, most of the money figure comes from them adding financial support to the shows, and yet Gabe still runs the same arenas with no increase in production quality (and in one instance with a dangerously broken ring, and in another instance by selling double the fire code number in tickets on a sweltering day leading to fans needing to be hospitalized).

Leading to the assumption that he's just been pocketing their extra cash that was meant to enhance the shows
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...Wow. Screw that guy.
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I'm sure he was lying but like, I feel like you can't really sue for that unless he was literally promising something in the agreement that he didn't provide or fabricated numbers beyond saying "yeah we do 5000"

He claims his company gets that many iPPV buys and the company not doing their due diligence to verify the claim to determine whether EVOLVE is worth adding means they should just eat their loss there imo.
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Jakyl25 posted...

Anyway, most of the money figure comes from them adding financial support to the shows, and yet Gabe still runs the same arenas with no increase in production quality (and in one instance with a dangerously broken ring, and in another instance by selling double the fire code number in tickets on a sweltering day leading to fans needing to be hospitalized).

This I buy though.
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I'm sure he was lying but like, I feel like you can't really sue for that unless he was literally promising something in the agreement that he didn't provide or fabricated numbers beyond saying "yeah we do 5000"

Uh I'm pretty sure you can. Lying about material information in financial deals is definitely fraud. And "how many people actually buy your product" is about as material as it gets.
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Lopen posted...

I'm sure he was lying but like, I feel like you can't really sue for that unless he was literally promising something in the agreement that he didn't provide or fabricated numbers beyond saying "yeah we do 5000"

He claims his company gets that many iPPV buys and the company not doing their due diligence to verify the claim to determine whether EVOLVE is worth adding means they should just eat their loss there imo.

Oh for sure, FloSports were REALLY stupid here. Like, Anthem stupid.

Forgot to mention that WWN stopped running their individually-priced iPPVs once the Flo deal started, so that was the ONLY way to see the shows besides in person or waiting for DVD.

So that 5000 to 2000, if not a lie, was a complete loss of 60% of the viewership
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I mean I think it really boils down to to what extent the details were provided and how directly related to the deal being made they were.

Jakyl made it seem very casual. Like Gabe just ballparked 5000 off the cuff and they didn't ask for confirmation or anything. I feel like there's a certain degree of detail that needs to be provided for it to really count as fraud. Dude can just be like "oh crap I didn't remember right"
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And meanwhile, Gabe bailed on his growing relationship with WWE, and went into direct competition with them in the pro wrestling streaming service market, so that his feds could be the star promotions of FloSlam.

Now the dudes who run PROGRESS and ICW took that relationship as WWE feeder.

Maybe he can get back in their good graces though!
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But isnt the big speculation that wwe is funding the wwn lawyers?
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If you can stomach PWInsider, this is a good look at the situation

https://twitter.com/pwinsidercom/status/911258124069240833

Bottom line is neither side looks good
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Also people are laughing at EVOLVE's amazing posters. Truly putting FloSports money to good use

https://twitter.com/davidbix/status/911249862271881217
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Assuming the article is right, looks like FloSports entered an agreement with EVOLVE, made no attempt on their end to really maximize revenue from that, and are now having buyer's remorse because hey it didn't really make good money.

Course it all comes down to what can be provided from each side, but given EVOLVE is having the audacity to countersue I would be very surprised if there was any concrete falsification of numbers there. I would imagine certain things were presented in a misleading manner, but that's no different than the crap WWE feeds its investors in the stupid meetings-- no one cries fraud there.
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https://twitter.com/davidbix/status/911325167351197697

Okay and now Gabe is counter-suing FloSports claiming they haven't paid their contractually mandated support for WWN shows since July

What a fucking mess
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Lopen posted...

Assuming the article is right, looks like FloSports entered an agreement with EVOLVE, made no attempt on their end to really maximize revenue from that, and are now having buyer's remorse because hey it didn't really make good money.

Course it all comes down to what can be provided from each side, but given EVOLVE is having the audacity to countersue I would be very surprised if there was any concrete falsification of numbers there. I would imagine certain things were presented in a misleading manner, but that's no different than the crap WWE feeds its investors in the stupid meetings-- no one cries fraud there.

At least it seems that these contracts are gonna see the public light of day and we can all see for ourselves
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