Board 8 > Chrono Trigger Mafia Topic 9: All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu...

(+) Yeah! (+)

You all kept misspelling them too

I was doing fine
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Oh, MI literally could not have countered PJ without outing himself as the doctor (which he might as well have considering he died night 1). Nonetheless, I feel like a flavor counter would have been enough to show PJ was up to no good. I guess unfortunately I was the only one who thought so.
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It's literally just a silly gimmick

Guarantee you he claims Miller day 1 next game when he really isn't
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Hey I like to mix it up!

Usually I don't claim flavor. Sometimes I get countered. And sometimes I actually am miller!
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eaedwards6400 posted...

Clown Status? Lopen, I thought we were buds. Not cool.

Listen man we are buds but I'm just calling it like I see it. I'm amazed you didn't get lynched for similar reasons to se7en and I think red claiming a scan on you is the only reason you didn't. I feel like half of your posts in the game were "sorry haven't had time to read/post, baby is demanding"
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Lopen posted...

eaedwards6400 posted...

Clown Status? Lopen, I thought we were buds. Not cool.

Listen man we are buds but I'm just calling it like I see it. I'm amazed you didn't get lynched for similar reasons to se7en and I think red claiming a scan on you is the only reason you didn't. I feel like half of your posts in the game were "sorry haven't had time to read/post, baby is demanding"

No you're probably right. I was most active when I was at work and that unfortunately is not when most people are active.
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bng_mmmk posted...

My feelings about pj this game are exactly the same as my feelings about brohan after Majora's Mask mafia. Yeah, he didn't get lynched, which is obviously a plus. But what exactly makes him the most valuable player on the team?

bng_mmmk posted...

pj did a good job of keeping his head down and following incorrect town, but that isn't something that an entire scum team can get away with all at once. It has to be a mix.

Well, first of all I think you can have every scum do that if they're all good and if every scum is very good at not generating suspicion then town players who just happen to be wrong and do so in a way that isn't graceful will do your work for you-- and this applies doubly so in a game where town is struggling.

Like you say that random scum players drove home these lynches or whatever, but I mean, town wasn't even close to a scum lynch at any point EXCEPT with Ulti as the only people with good reads never pushed for them or built a case. Driving home a lynch on se7en isn't much of a feat when #2 is JC and Se7en was practically carrying a noose around.

I guess what I'm saying is every scum player can be twisted to look good in a game where the town is bad. I don't actually think the best scum player would necessarily always be the one that is least suspicious, but in a game where the town is bad the best scum player is the one that's hardest to determine is scum. Playmaking just isn't really necessary.

I will say that I guess one aspect of dowolf's play in particular I probably underrated is that he was very good at seeming active and vaguely pushing for a lynch, but not doing so in an aggressive enough way that it actually made information come out. So basically it seemed like town was doing something but it was really doing nothing. So he may have actually helped the game seem a lot less productive than it could've been. Like replace him with a less active player and one of the town members with good reads may have actually been compelled to press for one of their suspicions.
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that's roughly how I feel about my play. I drove the conversation d3, and drove much of the discussion d5 as well. D5 in particular, I kept all the town except Red on their back foot for most of the day.

though tbh with the time I had to spend on the game, I was being about as aggressive as I possibly could be, town or scum >_>
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Town tends to have bigger issues from players that aren't productive. When scum have people that aren't doing much, they blend in with the town that are in the same boat. You're then stuck trying to piece together the game based on activity/voting records/tells/gut. There is a bit of touch and feel for scum on this one - blending into the game as it develops.

Town has the detriment of trying to drive activity and information. They are invested in the outcome and their own processes. Coming in impartial and without investment to say "obvscum!" is unfair, because if you were town in the game perhaps scum would have shifted tactics. And that, I hope, will help towns think about the momentum of the game in the future...

that all said...

I feel like corrik townslipped and his behavior this game wasn't really something you'd expect from him as scum. Or town. But there was one post that, to me, seemed like something I can't see him making as scum. I'll go dig it up if I get free time. In general he seemed to have a constant and genuine frustration and apathy (if that's possible, maybe I need a better word) with the game. He was the one guy I centered on as I followed the topics as being town. That's not "wow neon is so smart", that's just giving you guys my point of view. I thought red did OK and at the end you have to make a decision and vote it and deal with the results. I think unveiling the eaed scan earlier would have helped more tbh. There were like 5 people doing nothing and 3 were scum, and it wasn't until the end that 1 of them was removed from suspicion. I don't think it was red stroking his ego so much as red not adjusting to the people in the game.

hate to call out turbopuns but like, if you asked the game for their scum teams he would probably be unanimous no?
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VeryInsane posted...

pjbasis has won the game and the Scum MVP award for best Fett impression.

I never really go to play with Fett much, what did you mean by this?
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He's like the master of doing as very little as possible and not being suspected for it

I've always thought you were good as scum and meh as Town for kinda the exact same reason (you would be a good N1 scan if I was a scanner in game against you)
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pjbasis posted...

lmao

Wanna see something funny? Read se7en's sig. Lol.
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Corrik posted...

pjbasis posted...

lmao

Wanna see something funny? Read se7en's sig. Lol.

I lol'd when you posted it Corrik so I couldn't help but quote you.
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neonreaper posted...

hate to call out turbopuns but like, if you asked the game for their scum teams he would probably be unanimous no?

See, I get this every game.

Every game.

I was the only player out of 19 who did not receive a single vote D1. There was only one day out of five that I received more than zero votes. I was voted twice in the entire game, and it was in the final minutes of a day which ended in a town/town lynch.

I mean I know this town wasn't spectacular, but that's not my fault. My job description as mafia is not "don't get called scum", but "don't get lynched".
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Corrik posted...

pjbasis posted...

lmao

Wanna see something funny? Read se7en's sig. Lol.

I am having a good chuckle right now.
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So I have three questions: is anyone interested in another game? Is FD back? If he is not back and we want to play another game how long do we wait for another game?
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VeryInsane posted...

I mainly did it cause if I had to pick, he had the lowest number of people suspect him on the final day

But yeah, you all collectively played a pretty good game, playing up to town's weaknesses

Oh. I didn't even see that you posted an MVP, VI. I was just responding to Lopen.

But since you said it...

...I mean if "overall suspicion on the final day" is the metric, sheesh. There is so, so much more to consider than that.

But even if you do consider that, surely there's something to be said for not being on confirmed town BP red's scum list?

Anyway, I digress. I don't want to come across as feeling like I deserve any special accolades, but I do I find it amusing that game after game for over a decade now, these post-game chats are so, so, soooooo biased and subjective. It's just the nature of the game of mafia, I guess.
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bng_mmmk posted...

neonreaper posted...

hate to call out turbopuns but like, if you asked the game for their scum teams he would probably be unanimous no?

See, I get this every game.

Every game.

I was the only player out of 19 who did not receive a single vote D1. There was only one day out of five that I received more than zero votes. I was voted twice in the entire game, and it was in the final minutes of a day which ended in a town/town lynch.

I mean I know this town wasn't spectacular, but that's not my fault. My job description as mafia is not "don't get called scum", but "don't get lynched".

One thing to add now that I'm back at a computer:

Posted on the scumboard during the early hours of D2:

My hope is I'll end up being that person who at the end everybody goes "Wow we all knew he was scum but nobody ever lynched him"

It's a thing. There's a fine line between being on people's scum list and actually being voted. I'm the type of scum who flirts with that line constantly.
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eaedwards6400 posted...

So I have three questions: is anyone interested in another game? Is FD back? If he is not back and we want to play another game how long do we wait for another game?

FD is always here

FFD, on the other hand...
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There's no way I can take the time to play two games in a row.

I do have the bug again, though :)
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bng_mmmk posted...

bng_mmmk posted...

neonreaper posted...

hate to call out turbopuns but like, if you asked the game for their scum teams he would probably be unanimous no?

See, I get this every game.

Every game.

I was the only player out of 19 who did not receive a single vote D1. There was only one day out of five that I received more than zero votes. I was voted twice in the entire game, and it was in the final minutes of a day which ended in a town/town lynch.

I mean I know this town wasn't spectacular, but that's not my fault. My job description as mafia is not "don't get called scum", but "don't get lynched".

One thing to add now that I'm back at a computer:

Posted on the scumboard during the early hours of D2:

My hope is I'll end up being that person who at the end everybody goes "Wow we all knew he was scum but nobody ever lynched him"

It's a thing. There's a fine line between being on people's scum list and actually being voted. I'm the type of scum who flirts with that line constantly.

I mean the problem with this game in particular is dowolf was probably the main player in the game that aggressively pushed for anyone, and he was scum. So not getting votes is really nothing to gloat about here. Only scum that got any votes of note was Ulti. You actually got more than igcd so maybe he's actually king.

Granted, I don't know how past games have been, maybe there have been more active towns you've gotten this rep from. I'm just saying that in the face of those active towns I'm not convinced you wouldn't have been lynched here since you literally never left my scumlist since digesting the end of day 1, and VI can vouch for that. There were certainly reads I was wrong on-- like I thought Tony was more likely scum than not for example-- luckily by the time I would've pushed for it he was dead. I also was pretty sure red was scum for most of the game and was off on that. But none of the nonscum ever went above you on the suspicion hierarchy, which is telling. Even dowolf I had briefly put below red. It's not a random guess I happened to be right on in the end of the game that has me saying it was obvious to me-- it's like, glowing red sign for anyone who was paying attention to the end of day 1. And it was all made off of direct in game evidence, and votes, reasoning behind votes, not things like "gut" so I feel like it would be easy to build the case.

prof was so close to getting something going, but he couldn't be assed to. Maybe you could shake someone actually pushing for you, but no one actually did such so I can't know based on this game. If you wanna point me to an archive of a game you felt was active and you still deftly avoided suspicion despite someone having a good case against you, I'd be happy to glance over it, but there are a lot of players who can avoid suspicion by not saying dumb things, particularly in a game where you've got se7en and eaed being dumb thing lightning rods.

You seem to be implying there's some agenda or existing bias but I haven't actually followed any of these games you're referring to nor did I know you had that rep, so said bias doesn't actually exist here <_<
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I'm not gloating about the not getting votes.

I'm just making a point because people seem to always equate "lots of people suspected you" with "you didn't play well" and that's simply a misconception.

Getting votes is a quantifiable thing that you can use to measure whether a scum player is being a detriment. But just being on every scum list is 100% fine if literally nobody is voting you.


Game theory aside, honestly yes I'm a little put off by your arrogance regarding a game you weren't in. Any person who's been around mafia knows that your reads aren't the same when you're in a game interacting with players as opposed to watching the whole thing from the sidelines. You seem to be the one wanting to gloat, talking about pegging scum.

And as matter of fact, I didn't get more votes than IGCD, so kindly check yo self.
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You're dumbing it down because it's not "lots of people suspected you but you didn't get votes"

It's "not enough people suspected you but here's why they should have."

The latter can be pinned on town not finding the evidence. It's hard to give you a lot of credit for when no one really brought it forward. That's like you left the murder weapon on top of the cupboard at the scene of the crime and the cops somehow didn't find it. You weakly pressed for IGCD all day, but then when push comes to shove you followed his vote and didn't really present a strong argument why you went Kanzaris over Ulti. In the absence of a strong argument, opposing the guy you suspected makes a lot more sense. That's not the only thing I saw, but it would be a really strong starting point that no one really capitalized on.

On the flip side of why you can't just base it on suspicion, people suspected Kanzaris but there actually wasn't a lot of substance behind it. Those kinds of suspicions are less on a direct misplay on Kanz's part and more a general "you need to diplomacy a bit better."

Also I think you're overstating how different a game becomes in playing vs observing. Have you never replaced into a game before? It isn't that different! The only difference is you can actually vocalize the suspicions. Which comes down to how convincing you can be vs how convincing they can be-- but if you have post evidence it gets harder and harder for the defender to win that.
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eaedwards6400 posted...

So I have three questions: is anyone interested in another game? Is FD back? If he is not back and we want to play another game how long do we wait for another game?

I am always down for another game.
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It doesn't matter how good you played because dowolf played better.

If I had listed the thing that puns did that suprak and lopen pointed out. I woulda been told "that is weak. Post something of note alrdy corrik" lolol
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Lopen posted...

You're dumbing it down because it's not "lots of people suspected you but you didn't get votes"

It's "not enough people suspected you but here's why they should have."

Are you sure?

Here is the post I responded to:

neonreaper posted...

hate to call out turbopuns but like, if you asked the game for their scum teams he would probably be unanimous no?

"Not enough people suspected you" doesn't seem to describe it.


But anyway nobody's mind is going to be changed here.
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Well I never said that. You can call neonreaper one of "those people" but I have no horse in this race and hell I'm not even trying to be arrogant I'm just giving thoughts on the game. Like the natural inclination to me saying "you didn't do well" would be to take offense, but it's not "you didn't do well I could've done better" (I'm actually pretty bad as scum) it's "here's why town should've killed you and why town is bad." If anything I'm being a hell of a lot more offensive to the town than you here. You didn't defend against something because you had no need to. That's not a mistake on your part beyond making the undetected mistake to begin with.

Like maybe you're an awesome scumplayer in general but I would say this wasn't one of your better games if that's the case.
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Man, I had Ulti, dowolf, plum all pegged by the time I was dead. eaed was a bad read that completely got in my way. Kanz was right - everything I said had Ulti pinned as Scum, but he didn't ping my gut like eaed did so I ignored that logic.


puns and pj were both nobodies by the time I died, so I didn't form a real opinion on them. IGCD was more obvious in hindsight and with more time I might've pursued that one but yeah, meh

Shad, MI, JC, prof, Oddity were all obvtown

Red was the other bad read - after I died, you said I was one of the most obvious Town players and after everything you said about me the day before, I thought was just a slip.

Corrik's attitude was anti-Town

Ulti made the game completely unfun with his presence




It was nice to be able to play another mafia game for effectively only one day again.
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I think it's just a nagging frustration of mine which has built up slowly over the course of seven years as a result of every single scum team being told they were obvious once the game ended.

Like, to be considered a great scum player you have to be in a famously precarious situation and do something earth-shatteringly amazing that is legendary and unforgettable. Anything less than that is always attributed to "bad town".

So, yeah, I'm not exactly among the greats or whatever, just airing a long term general grievance with the community.
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

Red was the other bad read - after I died, you said I was one of the most obvious Town players and after everything you said about me the day before, I thought was just a slip.

100% agree with this read and this is largely why I claimed red was more interested in stroking his ego than trying to win for part of this game <_<
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I mean, Corrik made himself an easy lynch, and you guys did a good job of running with that. You and pj did a good job while I was alive at not sticking out.
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bng_mmmk posted...

I think it's just a nagging frustration of mine which has built up slowly over the course of seven years as a result of every single scum team being told they were obvious once the game ended.

Like, to be considered a great scum player you have to be in a famously precarious situation and do something earth-shatteringly amazing that is legendary and unforgettable. Anything less than that is always attributed to "bad town".

So, yeah, I'm not exactly among the greats or whatever, just airing a long term general grievance with the community.

Well I mean I said half the scumteam did alright-good! And there weren't really any earth shattering plays this game! It's not "all scum" it's "you dowolf and ulti." But I mean even the three of you had good things. Your attack on IGCD helped clear him pretty well (assuming you were outed as scum first anyway) without actually putting him at risk, and dowolf as I said was very good at occupying town. And I guess Ulti avoided certain death at least. But let's not pretend I just stuck all the players on the wheel and arbitrarily chose you as 'obvscum' either.

Also keep in mind that "bad town" being the general sentiment doesn't necessarily mean people are sore losers. The alternative being that the town is actually bad more often than not actually is a thing that's correct. I mean it's not like I'm being general here I'm being pretty specific on what I felt was done right and wrong here, you know? And keep in mind I didn't even read large chunks of the game-- like you say "it would've been different as a player" and yeah I probably would've beenmore effective at finding evidence because I actually wanted to win and would've tried to dig more.
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I found that a lot of my game was just pure reads. And endgame I pegged 2 of the 3 scum (pmed VI with my suspicions). PJ was the one that escaped me. So as to evidence vs reads argument, I do think evidence is good and I like to play that way. But I find that as town I play more off of reads for whatever reason.
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Generally speaking I feel like most of this town could redeem itself going forward - like, this topic has a lot of analysis and self-reflection I was actually not expecting to see and makes me more hopeful for the future of mafia on the board. We need more players in general, but I feel like we're at least not all stagnating and not getting better.

Also Puns, I wouldn't say you're bad scum at all - I think it IS worth recognizing that you're scummy when you're scum (sounds tautological, I know), but also that you're rarely anything but the last or second to last scum to go down with the ship. This to me suggests you're a strong scum player, just not a perfect one because perfect scum bamboozles the town outright - and I don't think we have any perfect scum on the board ATM.
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I think people are just hungry to be better, feels good to have a pursuit of knowledge tbqh
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I think we should try to find a different phrase for "bad player".
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

I think we should try to find a different phrase for "bad player".

How about just lazy or occupied

I don't even think this game is a good way of determine intelligence or anything like that, I mean it's a lot more psychology than a lot of people think but yeah

Also re: Suprak: I take pride in my ability to balance games. If anyone wants me to look at a setup, I am all ears. (Although I generally build my games around a few concepts tbqh)
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VeryInsane posted...

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I think we should try to find a different phrase for "bad player".

How about just lazy or occupied

I don't even think this game is a good way of determine intelligence or anything like that, I mean it's a lot more psychology than a lot of people think but yeah

Also re: Suprak: I take pride in my ability to balance games. If anyone wants me to look at a setup, I am all ears. (Although I generally build my games around a few concepts tbqh)

Maybe just "naturally scummy" or something. Or "awkward poster".

I just recall for most of my mafia career, often my gut would ping on "bad players" because their words and actions aren't really those of a "Town player". In this game, I was able to say prof was Town because I've seen him act exactly this way as Town. I wasn't able to do the same with eaed without a point of a reference.

I don't think it's fair to call these guys bad players at all. They're just people who don't give a Town vibe.
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It's also possible that they just didn't pick up how to play from their past mistakes or something tbqh. I think prof mentioned postgame of Hearthstone he was playing Stardew Valley or something

Like I remember when I was a pretty bad player. I looked at some of my old games and improved considerably and am one of the best right now (We haven't played together since like 2011, you haven't faced Prime VI. If only @FFDragon @-FFDragon- was still around D:)

I think it's important to try to at the very least learn from each game and show a desire to better yourself. Mafia a game where the more you are willing to look into each game to see what works, the better you will be.
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Yeah, true.

I had a set-up for English Literature Mafia that's been in the works for like 6 years, though I think I lost it. If I figure that out, I could host some time.
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Yeah I just found my old Dr Seuss mafia game from 2013 pls I sent to Sir Chris but I really really don't want to host two games in a row

>But thou must!
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I would host but I literally just did like two months ago.

THERE HAS TO BE SOMEONE ELSE
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You are Charles Dickens, TOWN

Every post you make must be set during the French Revolution and do it's best to be hard to read :(
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Oh hey Ben

I am really sorry for overshadowing your game and I'll let the hidden palace crew know for my next game (it's probably Phoenix Wright, Dr Seuss is just a meme unless there is serious interest)
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Generally speaking I feel like most of this town could redeem itself going forward - like, this topic has a lot of analysis and self-reflection I was actually not expecting to see and makes me more hopeful for the future of mafia on the board. We need more players in general, but I feel like we're at least not all stagnating and not getting better.

Also Puns, I wouldn't say you're bad scum at all - I think it IS worth recognizing that you're scummy when you're scum (sounds tautological, I know), but also that you're rarely anything but the last or second to last scum to go down with the ship. This to me suggests you're a strong scum player, just not a perfect one because perfect scum bamboozles the town outright - and I don't think we have any perfect scum on the board ATM.

I am best scum ever
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VeryInsane posted...

Oh hey Ben

I am really sorry for overshadowing your game and I'll let the hidden palace crew know for my next game (it's probably Phoenix Wright, Dr Seuss is just a meme unless there is serious interest)

Oh it's fine! My game is going really nicely. And since it needed to be hosted on a separate forum anyway, they were meant to co-exist.

http://s13.zifboards.com/Death_Note_Mafia/index.php?

Link for anyone who wants to see it
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Hey Corrik please be less whiny about people not listening to you next game it's not a good way to get people to listen to you :)
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HanOfTheNekos posted...

Hey Corrik please be less whiny about people not listening to you next game it's not a good way to get people to listen to you :)

I would if people would at least try to listen at times.
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Someone launch a game so I can dominate. Start it for Wednesday cuz March Madness.
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