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Westbrick 03/27/12 6:37:00 AM #204: |
^"Relevancy" is actually a great way of phrasing it, yeah. When it comes to something like a job offering, evaluating a candidate based on his or her transgendered status is pretty clearly unfair. But in a beauty contest, where facial symmetry / body shape / other equally superficial factors play a central role? Not so clear.
-- Tebow to Jests? http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m19b15IB731qzdb47o1_400.png ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KokoroAkechi 03/27/12 6:40:00 AM #205: |
There is way too much stuff to go through, but as long as there were rules that like prevented her from entering I'd say it's 100% fair. Maybe not like ethically, but it's not like I'd be able to argue with it.
-- Chrono1219 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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metroid composite 03/27/12 6:46:00 AM #206: |
Justin_Crossing posted...
i wouldn't let her compete in the olympics as a woman She is elligible there, though, I think. Let me search real quick... Yep: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/SPORT/05/17/olympics.transsexual/ So yes, she probably can compete in the olympics as a woman, with "no competitive advantage" according to the olympic committee. She's just not allowed in a beauty pageant. -- Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KokoroAkechi 03/27/12 6:49:00 AM #207: |
The olympic committee doesn't sound like it's composed of scientists.
-- Chrono1219 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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azuarc 03/27/12 7:11:00 AM #208: |
She looks female enough to me. I'm certainly not going to hedge my bets with pronouns and call the person he/she or (s)he or something dumb like that. She is simply she. There's really nothing vaguely masculine remaining in that body, so unless I heard her speak and it was ridiculously deep, which I doubt if hormone treatment started at 14, I'm in favor of simply treating her as a woman unconditionally.
Certainly hot enough for me to not feel weird knowing I'm starting at an individual born with boy parts. I'm aware there are transvestites who often do a remarkable job of hiding their actual gender, but there's no deception here. Regarding her DQ, I'm not in favor of it, but it's probably the correct thing if there are rules that state that you must do X, and you do Y instead. To me it's not about their being a rule indicating gender; it's about not checking the accurate box on the entrance form. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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masterplum 03/27/12 7:16:00 AM #209: |
I think people are totally missing the point here
The Miss Universe pageant should be able to do whatever the heck it wants to. I want to ask a question: If BET had a miss black America pagent would any of you be offended? I know I wouldn't because BET has the right to have a pageant for whatever group of people it wants. I would not be offended if there was a Mr. Black Man pageant and I couldn't compete because of my Caucasian decent, because I do not qualify under the rules of the pageant. It seems that Miss Universe is designed for people who have the natural born sex of Woman, not the gender of a Woman, and so anyone who doesn't meet that criteria is not allowed to participate. This seems completely within its rights as a pageant to do so. -- yE frE me Kweku Ananse Papa me:http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1508/masterplumgm3.jpg?tti ... Copied to Clipboard!
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metroid composite 03/27/12 7:18:00 AM #210: |
KokoroAkechi posted...
The olympic committee doesn't sound like it's composed of scientists. Their rules seem pretty based on science from the article (must be on the correct hormones for 2+ years--including having gonads removed two years prior to competition). Essentially they were finding that steroids were the only measurable competitive difference between genders. Change the steroids and you're good. Westbrick posted... Newsflash: it's a contest based around genetics. If they can discriminate against ugly people, why not against transgendered folk? The fact that she was apparently unclear about this fact makes it worse. People are seriously complaining about superficiality in a contest which revolves around superficiality. Well...we probably would not be ok with them discriminating against, say, interracial people. Or discriminating against jews. These are also superficial things in a contest about genetics. And yet our common sense tells us that disqualifying someone based on these traits would be clearly offensive. This is why most rules about discrimination have the idea of a "protected group", which means that anti-discrimination laws can't be applied to, say, discriminating against stupid people. Damn near every employer discriminates against stupid people. -- Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision ... Copied to Clipboard!
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masterplum 03/27/12 7:18:00 AM #211: |
So I guess to sum up, I don't know if transgendered people SHOULD be allowed in women's beauty pageants ( I would have to think about it more) but I believe that its the right of the Pageant to decide that issue themselves
-- Four Civil Union Ceremonies and a Funeral just doesn't have the same ring to it - yoshifan823 http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1508/masterplumgm3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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WazzupGenius00 03/27/12 7:23:00 AM #212: |
WOW the complete ignorance of trans issues some people showed in this topic.
Well if the rules did say that your Sex has to be female (I've seen conflicting reports both ways) and she lied about that, it wouldn't be fair to the other competitors to allow her to continue once it was found out that she lied about that. You can get disqualified for anything else you lie about too. Now with that said, the rule (if true) IS horribly stupid and insulting to trans women and should not exist. Hopefully the outrage from this incident will help push them toward getting rid of the rule -- http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/8840/crashsig.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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OmarsComin 03/27/12 7:33:00 AM #213: |
can one of the non-ignorant people enlighten me
I see a lot of "people who think this are ignorant" but ignorant is usually used to mean "don't know the facts" or something like that unless I'm out of the loop this isn't an issue you can be ignorant on because there's not a lot of data about it? but I'm willing to believe I'm out of the loop. is there research out there, or anything substantive? teach me about the transgender issue, preferably with science. I'm interested. -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npHDxSvwCE0 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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metroid composite 03/27/12 7:34:00 AM #214: |
masterplum posted...
I want to ask a question: If BET had a miss black America pagent would any of you be offended? I know I wouldn't because BET has the right to have a pageant for whatever group of people it wants. I would not be offended if there was a Mr. Black Man pageant and I couldn't compete because of my Caucasian decent, because I do not qualify under the rules of the pageant. It seems that Miss Universe is designed for people who have the natural born sex of Woman, not the gender of a Woman, and so anyone who doesn't meet that criteria is not allowed to participate. This seems completely within its rights as a pageant to do so. Interesting example, but let's flip that around. Would it be ok if there was a "Miss White America"? If you answer yes, would it be ok if "Miss White America" happened to call itself "Miss America" and just had rules against non-caucasians competing, sometimes sending girls home half-way through the competition when someone digs up their ancestry and finds out they're 1/32 Black? I hope everyone here would answer no to that. Now, let's say there were several competitions, "Miss America" for only white girls, which got all of the publicity, and a "Miss Black America" and a "Miss Hispanic America" and a "Miss other races America" all three of which got less attention than Miss America. Does the fact that there are separate but unequal competitions now make everything kosher? I would argue no. Seperate but unequal just isn't ideal. Now if there was also a "Miss Everything" contest in addition to the race-specific contests, then that might be fine. Which, y'know, I would have assumed would be the point of the "Miss Universe" contest--this is the highest level of competition where everyone is included...right? Or are we going to exclude some people from the highest level of competition and tell them they can only compete in much smaller competitions? -- Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Biolizard28 03/27/12 7:35:00 AM #215: |
masterplum posted...
So I guess to sum up, I don't know if transgendered people SHOULD be allowed in women's beauty pageants ( I would have to think about it more) but I believe that its the right of the Pageant to decide that issue themselves What is the difference between dqing a contestant because she's transgender and dqing a contestant because she's black? -- I like how each new topic you make reveals such varied facets of your idiocy. - foolmo Now this is entertainment! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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OmarsComin 03/27/12 7:40:00 AM #216: |
What is the difference between dqing a contestant because she's transgender and dqing a contestant because she's black?
I can answer this one because transgender people make some men uncomfortable a lot of men would not consider having any kind of romantic relations with a transgender person. and since beauty pageants are at their core "would you bang her y/n" it bothers them in a way that having a black woman in would not. -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npHDxSvwCE0 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Achromatic 03/27/12 7:40:00 AM #217: |
From: OmarsComin | #216 A lot of men would not consider having any kind of romantic relations with a black person. etc ... Copied to Clipboard!
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OmarsComin 03/27/12 7:41:00 AM #218: |
A lot of men would not consider having any kind of romantic relations with a black person.
etc my suspicion is that there's considerably less men in this category at least in NA (maybe everywhere too) -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npHDxSvwCE0 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Achromatic 03/27/12 7:43:00 AM #219: |
From: OmarsComin | #218 Majority rule does not an decent society make, was my point. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Raka_Putra 03/27/12 7:45:00 AM #220: |
From: OmarsComin | #218 I think NA actually have a significant enough number of people of African descent. ...I don't even get to see a black person IRL every year. -- Proud ValHellen x Maha_Bufudyne shipper. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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th3l3fty 03/27/12 7:47:00 AM #221: |
this would be fair if they banned any contestants who used hormones / had plastic surgery (which are like beauty paging "doping" in a sense), but I sincerely doubt that's the case
either ban them all or ban nobody! -- thelefty for analysis crew 2008 imo -tranny I have a third degree burn in flame-o-nomics -Sir Chris ... Copied to Clipboard!
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masterplum 03/27/12 7:53:00 AM #222: |
From: OmarsComin | #218 I think theres a LOT less people in this category. 3rd world countries on the whole as far as I can tell are much less tolerant of LGBT -- http://i.imgur.com/eqOQs.gif?tti http://i.imgur.com/uTK2o.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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OmarsComin 03/27/12 7:54:00 AM #223: |
Majority rule does not an decent society make, was my point.
right, but they're not voting on a national law or trying to come up with the most fair thing. they're trying to make a beauty pageant and the viewership of that is a pretty specific demographic. I'm go out on a limb here and say that a good portion of the people offended by this don't regularly watch beauty pageants. I don't have a real set opinion about this either way, but I understand why people are offended and I also understand why they made the decision. I guess if people don't like the decision they can choose not to watch the pageant? that's what free marketers would say anyway. -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npHDxSvwCE0 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Achromatic 03/27/12 7:55:00 AM #224: |
From: OmarsComin | #223 Yeah I covered this already. I am pretty much arguing ethics and societal burden at this point. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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metroid composite 03/27/12 7:58:00 AM #225: |
OmarsComin posted...
A lot of men would not consider having any kind of romantic relations with a black person. etc my suspicion is that there's considerably less men in this category at least in NA (maybe everywhere too) I would hazard a guess that this wouldn't be true in most of Asia. Not sure, though. -- Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision ... Copied to Clipboard!
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BakusaiTenketsu 03/27/12 7:58:00 AM #226: |
From articles I found, she apparently lied on the application when she was asked if she was born a woman, then later admitted she filled in the answer to being born a woman as a lie.
There seems to be a petition to get her back in, but I think after the media attention this has brought, it might tarnish the results a bit, even if she doesn't win. -- http://dl.glitter-graphics.net/pub/256/256671ex078gxgzf.gif ... Copied to Clipboard!
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metroid composite 03/27/12 8:01:00 AM #227: |
Oh, funny story--I was being hypothetical in my post about half an hour ago, but a quick google search says:
"One of the most contentious issues that the pageant has had to confront is its racially inflected history. This was particularly the case during the early decades of the pageant. From its inception in 1921 to the famous boardwalk protest in September 1968, race had been an albatross around its neck. In fact, for the first 35 years, all non-White women were barred from participating in the pageant. In response to such exclusion, the Miss Black America Pageant was founded in September 1968 in an effort to celebrate Black beauty. While the pageant had had a few Asian and Native American contestants by the 1960s, it was not until the September 1970 pageant that the first Black contestant, Cheryl Brown, Miss Iowa competed in the national competition. Through the 1970s and beyond more and more Black women and other women of color competed in the contest breaking tradition along the way. Some of these milestones were • Deborah Lipford, Miss Delaware 1976, became the first Black woman to place in the top 10. • In the September 1980 pageant, two Black contestants, Doris Hayes, Miss Washington State and Lencola Sullivan, Miss Arkansas made the top 10. Sullivan shattered another barrier, cracking the top 5 as she was 4th runner up. • Vanessa Williams and Suzette Charles make history as first runner up and Miss America 1984. Williams’s spectacular win would come to an end ten months into her reign when photos of her and another woman appeared in Penthouse magazine. Charles would take over as her successor for the remaining seven weeks and become the 2nd Black woman to wear the crown." So...Miss America WAS white-exclusive, and there WAS a Miss Black America in response. Welp. (Also, the de-crowning of someone for lesbian activity is classy too). -- Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision ... Copied to Clipboard!
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masterplum 03/27/12 8:15:00 AM #228: |
I think its less she was a lesbian and more she was in penthouse >_>
They like to protect the image of miss america -- Four Civil Union Ceremonies and a Funeral just doesn't have the same ring to it - yoshifan823 http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1508/masterplumgm3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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WazzupGenius00 03/27/12 8:21:00 AM #229: |
yeah, if it had been a solo image in Penthouse she still would have been decrowned
-- [NO BARKLEY NO PEACE] If you can't slam with the best, then jam with the rest. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KokoroAkechi 03/27/12 8:52:00 AM #230: |
From: metroid composite | #1009 Ahh I didn't see the "minimize" part. Which is to say they do expect some minor advantages to be there. I'm not an expert either, but I know enough where certain things like skeletal structure etc can play roles with this. -- Chrono1219 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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metroid composite 03/27/12 9:09:00 AM #231: |
WazzupGenius00 posted...
yeah, if it had been a solo image in Penthouse she still would have been decrowned Derp, well, I didn't know what Penthouse was. I was thinking some paparazzi photographed them when they were in a physical penthouse...whoops. KokoroAkechi posted... Ahh I didn't see the "minimize" part. Which is to say they do expect some minor advantages to be there. I'm not an expert either, but I know enough where certain things like skeletal structure etc can play roles with this. Yeah, skeletal structure is the main question mark with me. (For all that hormones dictate skeletal structure too, they primarily do so when your skeleton is growing, so some people will miss the effects). So sure, hypothetically transwomen might have a skeletal advantage in, say, Volley Ball, and transmen might have a skeletal advantage over genetic males in gymnastics and horseback riding. They probably decided that whatever minor advantages might be gained through skeletal structure is lost due to transpeople needing to go through intensive surgery, after which they can't do serious physical activity for about 12 months, and thus lose 12 months of training. -- Cats land on their feet. Toast lands peanut butter side down. A cat with toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision ... Copied to Clipboard!
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masterplum 03/27/12 11:23:00 AM #232: |
You didn't know what penthouse is?
I'm Mormon and I know what it is >_> -- yE frE me Kweku Ananse Papa me:http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/1508/masterplumgm3.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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SuperJanitor 03/27/12 11:50:00 AM #233: |
Still has a man's jaw though.
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Ayuyu 03/27/12 11:54:00 AM #234: |
I think this topic should've asked us if we'd have sex with this woman, I'm curious to see the answer.
I'd say yes personally. -- http://img.imgcake.com/cosplaygifer.gif http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TORtanic ... Copied to Clipboard!
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GuessMyUserName 03/27/12 12:00:00 PM #80: |
From: StealThisSheen | Posted: 3/27/2012 2:57:11 AM | #076 A contest for transgender females isn't a contest "for men". -- http://img.imgcake.com/GuessMyUserName/minah2gifje.gif ... Copied to Clipboard!
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OctilIery 03/27/12 12:00:00 PM #81: |
StealThisSheen posted...
OctilIery posted... And again, I doubt the contest at any point forced her to say "I am male". It's a requirement. You can't be female and enter. And I get your whole... Biological doesn't = what she identifies as. But at the same time, it's a contest for men, as per the rules. Why would you enter a contest for men if you identify as a female. It just seems... Weird. Since it's not like you're competing against females. You're competing against men in a contest that makes it known they're men. .....You really have no understanding of the term "transgendered". You are not competing in a contest with men. You are competing in a contest with women that are only BIOLOGICALLY men. -- Joyrock Fresh from my first justified ban. Ever! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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StealThisSheen 03/27/12 12:00:00 PM #82: |
I'm not saying I don't get the argument that she identifies as a woman, so I'm probably just not conveying what I'm trying to say right. -- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif ... Copied to Clipboard!
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OmarsComin 03/27/12 12:17:00 PM #236: |
I wouldn't
-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npHDxSvwCE0 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KingButz 03/27/12 12:19:00 PM #237: |
Well, if she had a problem with the rules, she should not have participated. She could have made some sort of statement instead of being dishonest.
-- http://img.imgcake.com/nio/bokbokbokpngur.png Ok everyone this is Bartz so just remember. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Vlado 03/27/12 12:22:00 PM #238: |
th3l3fty posted...
this would be fair if they banned any contestants who used hormones / had plastic surgery (which are like beauty paging "doping" in a sense), but I sincerely doubt that's the case either ban them all or ban nobody! Actually, any kind of plastic surgery is banned at Miss Bulgaria. Pretty sure they are the general Miss World rules. UltimaterializerX posted... I would. And okay, Vlado. Are all laws and rules just? Nope, and I was not saying that even about this rule that led to the disqualification. Perhaps it should be changed, I don't know. I just said it was fair to disqualify her under the existing rules. -- If you like Blitzball, try Captain Tsubasa II (in English) for NES! Top games: http://unikgamer.com/users/vlado-309.html ... Copied to Clipboard!
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DeepsPraw 03/27/12 12:29:00 PM #239: |
I would, though I've always been wary of post-op sex. Seems to me it would be uncomfortable, but I'll never know.
I don't care if it's shallow, pre-op is better. KingButz posted... Well, if she had a problem with the rules, she should not have participated. She could have made some sort of statement instead of being dishonest. "Natural born woman" is a really vague thing to have as a requirement. What does that even mean? Are women born via Caesarian section unnaturally born? Even if you describe it as having a uterus or or two X chromosomes, what would you do about women who have had a ueterectomy or were born with abnormal DNA? -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the dog http://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KJH 03/27/12 12:49:00 PM #240: |
Man, the word discrimination seems to be thrown around too much these days. It's like it's lost all meaning.
-- I have no idea who you are, but I thank you for arousing me. - Beruga Brawl FC: 3823-8243-5663 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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StifledSilence 03/27/12 1:03:00 PM #241: |
I would.
Also, I think this is getting way more attention from the news than it's worth. If tranny-panties really went through with a sex change surgery, then I think she should be able to compete in a beauty pageant. It really doesn't harm anyone or sully the contest's image because beauty pageants are simply accepted ways of exploiting women. The only reason I would understand the DQ is if she lied on her application. That's a big no-no for any competition. -- "Just drown them in maple syrup. Sticky maple syrup." - Taslion ... Copied to Clipboard!
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DeepsPraw 03/27/12 1:11:00 PM #242: |
StifledSilence posted...
tranny-panties Not cool dude. If you ever find yourself talking to a transsexual, never call them a tranny, it's a slur equivalent to ho or slut. If she lied about her residence information or whatever then, yeah, the DQ is fine, but it looks like the only thing she's guilty of is not meeting the pagent's bigoted definition of what a woman is. -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the dog http://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Paratroopa1 03/27/12 1:16:00 PM #243: |
I wouldn't, but that's because I'm gay. So basically the same answer as everyone else so far.
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Procrastinater 03/27/12 1:21:00 PM #245: |
I wouldn't, by the way.
Her face doesn't really do it for me. Might be the jaw? Not sure. -- Procrastinater - So Good ~*Board 8 Late Night Crew*~ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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StealThisSheen 03/27/12 1:23:00 PM #246: |
So now for my actual stance on it: -- SEP Nash, Smelling Like the Vault since 1996 Step FOUR! Get Paid! http://img.imgcake.com/stevenashgifpu.gif ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Y_Donte_Y 03/27/12 1:26:00 PM #247: |
its a good rule
-- WHY DONTE, WHY!!! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Paratroopa1 03/27/12 1:30:00 PM #248: |
Is it actually a rule though? I keep hearing conflicting reports on that.
I mean, if it's a rule, then yeah she should be DQ'ed, unfortunately. That's not really an interesting topic to talk about. It's much more interesting to talk about whether or not it should be a rule at all. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KJH 03/27/12 1:35:00 PM #249: |
How far do you have to identify as female and by what means before it's discriminatory to exclude you from something female-specific?
-- I have no idea who you are, but I thank you for arousing me. - Beruga Brawl FC: 3823-8243-5663 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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DeepsPraw 03/27/12 1:43:00 PM #250: |
KJH posted...
How far do you have to identify as female and by what means before it's discriminatory to exclude you from something female-specific? It would depend on the analysis of of psychotherapist. I don't know the details but there is an established line which is often used as a requirement for reassignment therapy and surgery. A good baseline would be a diagnosis of gender identity disorder as per the DSM. That's a little old-fashioned as most perceived "disorders" are not mental illness, but that's a debate for another day. -- oh yeah. i am a dog. i smoke cigarettes and vote democratic because i am classy - the dog http://i.imgur.com/x4Tma.jpg ... Copied to Clipboard!
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