Lurker > joe40001

ZMythos posted...

As I've previously said, upward mobility between tracks is seldom accessible, especially to marginalized groups, and does more to hinder student self esteem than incentivize moving up.

What would you propose as an alternative?

MedeaLysistrata posted...

But as long as the top performs do well... that's all that matters to some people

Nope, but burning down the top doesn't help anybody.

PS: I strongly dislike the implication others are putting forward that "the top" of any academic hierarchy is solely occupied by any given race or class. You take out Calc you are going to hurt many people from all backgrounds who busted ass to get there.

I'm 3 episodes in and I think I've explicitly called 5 lines verbatim as well as pretty much every plot point.

Also antagonist lady's acting is some of the worst I've seen on tv in a while.

The_Creep_2020 posted...

Hows Star Trek ruined?

Um... are you serious?

Discovery, Picard...

Have you seen Picard?

emblem boy posted...

If you're going to have advanced courses and be a proponent for advanced courses, you should make sure your non advanced courses also have high quality. But I mean, having advanced courses that have higher amount of resources will probably mean less resources for non advanced classes. Especially since financial and labor resources can be fixed costs.

How much is that delta going to be though, and how accessible do we make it for non advanced course students to enter advanced courses

I think pitting them against each other is an error. All too often I see wealthy people in power make it neighbor vs neighbor as the only reality when it's not.

There is absolutely the money out there, it just needs to be given to the right places. To say advanced courses harm non-advanced courses in any way is false. Limited resources harm both, so the solution is better and more resources, not even entertaining the idea of dissolving advanced courses IMO.

In short, the folks who push for anything that might result in the removal of calculus, even if that's not their explicit intent. Are doing a clear disservice, and IMO are clearly wrong.

It is more "equal" to harm the advanced students, but it isn't progress of any kind.

Exactly what I expected from modern Disney SW.

It's a shame they are doing this to every good property.

Trek is ruined, SW is ruined. Every good IP gets bought and milked by people who don't understand it until it's a husk to be discarded.

MedeaLysistrata posted...

Your answer was pretty funny, but you never said what qualifies someone as an expert. You just listed a bunch of unrelated people you admire.

This was thier question:
"Hey Joe, is there any expert you dont think youre smarter than in their field? Why dont you go to school for all these things and get paid good money to be smarter than all these people in all their fields?"

Sincere question: Is it your reading of that that they are asking me for what qualifies somebody as an "expert"?

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@Everybody, is this true? Is everyone in agreement that I have completely failed to answer shockthemonkey's question?

Jabodie posted...

I'll warn you right now that I wrote a bunch of shit that doesn't have any real point. It's just me reflecting on my grade school education:

In some ways. During my first two years of high school, I had a mix of advanced and "regular" level classes and the difference in rigor and level of care was pretty large (one reason is that I was two years "ahead" in math/language, but placed into the regular curriculum). But I also had an issue of being extremely bored in school until I went into the full IB curriculum in my junior and senior years, so I understand the feeling of listlessness as you easily perform well in classes that seem to ask very little of you.

When I did shift into the IB curriculum, the rigor and level of stimulation increased immensely, and some of the questions and challenges that were posed to me were very important in forming who I am today and how I perceive the world. Success and understanding took a lot more effort and were, therefore, more gratifying. But at the same time, I knew that most of the school was basically being babysat and fed test prep for state education exams so the school can maintain its funding.

But at the same time, what can you do if a student simply needs extra resources and time to grasp the same concepts as another student? What can you, as the educator, really do if some students have parents that have time or resources for tutoring and some need to work part-time outside of school? What can you do to help a student that may be depressed or otherwise unmotivated to perform in school? Do you want to invest your time and effort into helping your best student really excel, or helping your struggling students better understand the material offered to them?

But it is natural for these teachers to want to put extra resources into helping their best students succeed. Being there to give advice on college applications, extracurriculars, career paths etc. And, when you enter into an accelerated education path, you will typically be around kids who have parents that are better off and can get good advice by osmosis.

Was it predicated on others receiving worse education? My personal experience comes from receiving a lot of extra attention and encouragement from my teacher throughout my life which has led me to almost never doubt my intelligence in any situation (but I quite often doubt my knowledge or understanding). That comes off as pretty douchey, and it is, but hey what can I say. And I know many, many people can't say the same simply by having less natural talent at the particular set of skills schools ask of you (which may or may not be representative of intelligence). I once had one of my teachers boldly tell me many students simply could not perform the way I do academically, an idea I was very averse to back in high school (and I was arguing with her about it).

My success in school was in no small part thanks to the support and attention I got from my teachers, which in turn helped me develop my skills to achieve my goals to this day. But what does my performance in school really say about me as an individual? I'm not really sure to this day.

This is a good, informative, and useful response IMO.

MedeaLysistrata posted...

What I gather from this experience is that this whole issue revolved around utilitarian value calculations. So it's hard to really ground the debate in objectivity, and Joe can't show how this can possibly go beyond who values placing resources where.

Hopefully we can all agree schools need and deserve more resources, but I would also frame it as a discussion of the merits of advanced courses. Because I feel some people do argue that the existence of advanced courses and advanced tracks necessarily harms those not in such courses. And I fundamentally disagree with that premise.

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My answer was yes and I named several.

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Because it is not and has never been a career path that interests me, nor do I believe "being smarter" is necessarily rewarded in education policy, as it is quite evident, (regardless of your political affiliation) that lucrative education policy firms and consultants do not necessarily generate the most effective policies.

Your question was unequivocally answered, any further attempts to pretend otherwise will be transparent to everyone.

You still continue to dodge my question. So I will restate it for you:

"Do you believe a person being in a position of authority in a field means they are necessarily knowledgeable in that field?"

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Your question was literally:

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My answer was yes and I named them.

Your question was answered, you continue to dodge my question. So I will restate it for you:
"Do you believe a person being in a position of authority in a field means they are necessarily knowledgeable in that field?"

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I did, I named experts I respect. Do you need me to name education experts, or are you just trying really hard to dodge my question?

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I'm perfectly capable of answering your question.

There's countless experts in every field who are far smarter than me in that field or in general.

Adam Savage, Quinton Tarantino, Penn and Teller, John McWhorter, Dave Filoni, Vince Gilligan, almost all career musicians, I mean I can list names of experts all day but I doubt you'll concede anything.

But speaking of dodging, are you capable of answering my question?

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You seem to confuse positions of authority with expertise. Do you truly believe just because somebody got themselves into a position of power they are necessarily knowledgeable?

Jabodie posted...

Hmmm... I'm pretty biased here because I doubtlessly benefited from educational tracking.

And what, if anything, do you think was wrong with your education? Did it at all feel predicated on others receiving worse education?

ZMythos posted...

I linked an NCTM article that cites numerous sources about the negative effects of tracking. Do you want me to do more of your homework for you? Here are several more articles saying the same thing.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0272775702000559#preview-section-references

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.3102/0002831213489843

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3326053

Students on low tracks are substantially more likely to stay on those low tracks and never get high quality math education. They are more likely to have lower self-esteem as mathematics students. And low tracks correlate more with race, language, and socioeconomic status than they do with actual mathematics ability.

Indeed, I taught a remedial math class just last year and 8 out of my 14 students were of hispanic descent, and 6 of those students were ESL students. All of them held the belief that they were in that class because they were stupid and/or bad at math. I've been working to detrack and eliminate those classes for three years now, and I've just started to see some success.

What alternative would you advocate for?

Far increased resources and mobility between tracks is different than abolishing tracks.

Would you agree with me that we should not do anything that would remove the existence or access to high level courses?

emblem boy posted...

Let's get away from the race part.
Do you think there can be negatives to tracking for math?

Without question yes.

emblem boy posted...

People define what a racist policy differently. Until that changes, I stand by what I said. If people don't care about these types of inequalities or think it's an actual inequality, we should not try to appeal to them by saying we'll fix it.
Simple as that.

I agree with the behavior but not the framed reasoning. I'd say it thusly: people do care about racism, which is why even hardline conservatives don't like being called racist, but as such it should only be invoked we definitely appropriate.

Tracking for example is something with arguments for and against. (Personally I don't see how high level or AP courses are maintained without some form of tracking.)

The point is, and where I'd agree with your conclusion, is that it is inappropriate to attribute racism to the defenders if it.

Those who invoke 'racism' as a reductive cudgel to 'win' a argument seldom are acting in a sincere or pragmatic space.

Nobody is against retooling the education system in a way that will help, but many are concerned about hurting the education system in service of some performative wokeness that often ends up hurting those it claims to help.

If the "doctor" has polices that he can demonstrate will help without reducing high level classes I don't think there would be a problem.

But just listen to him in his own words: "I'm not arguing for the removal of calculus at any high school, but...".

Somebody who talks like that sounds like the type of person who is open to policies that would result in the removal of calculus at some schools, even if it's not the direct intention of his policy but just a consequence of it.

Parents aren't being absurd, many places have deincentivized "academic rigor" in the name of inclusiveness. And that just hurts people.

We need to help everyone with the interest and aptitude to succeed at high level academics get the resources they need to succeed, we don't help them by removing high level academics from public schools.

Like the parent said that just further advantages those with existing wealth.

emblem boy posted...

I agree with that guy then. Have other high level math class options and also increase the general rigour of math classes for all kids, not just the ones chosen to be the select few.

as a side note... , I will say though, from a purely pragmatic sense... I wish people would not use "it's a racist policy" as an argument when talking to parents about this stuff.

If there's anything we've learned recently, it's that people don't care if a policy has racist outcomes. They just don't. It's sad as fuck and depressing, but use any other reason. It's very easy for people to be racist or support racist policies. Don't try to appeal to racists by telling them you want to fix racist things.

Almost everybody cares about racism, but they don't care about what certain people call racism because those people use it to apply to almost everything frequently with literally 0 evidence.

Take this person's argument for example. He just said tracking "is racist" without an iota of evidence. Why should a parent care about that? Why should anybody?

Personally I find it much more racist to lower expectations and tracks of mathematical success to people as a function of thier race.

So yeah, almost everybody cares about racism, but that doesn't mean simply by invoking the term without evidence people should care, only fools care about that.

ZMythos posted...

You can't copy/paste anything from that website, which is fucking bullshit >_>

As a hs math teacher, tracking is a bad practice and needs to be phased out if we ever want to be at the top of mathematics education.

At least I can still screencap. Here's the Dr. mentioned in the article defending his position in the comments. I agree 100%

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/5/8/9/AAaVCFAADYNV.png

To say tracking "is racist" is a flat out lie, other people make this point in the comments as well.

The fact that he starts from such a position shows the flaws in his thinking. Tracking "is racist" is an ideological argument. Not a statement of fact. He can argue that there are better alternatives, but he has to make the case for them and demonstrate they will not compromise the ability if students to achieve higher level math.

I think I speak for just about all concerned parents when I say nobody is against an alternative that improves academic success. But to everything I can see, he is not doing that, he is saying "we need to get rid of tracking because it 'is racist' in some way I refuse to or am incapable of demonstrating, and also I refuse to or am incapable of articulating what if anything will go in its place."

You can't claim you don't want to remove calculus if you advocate polices that accomplish that. "Equal outcomes without exceptions" means that nobody will have an outcome higher than the outcome the least apt person can achieve, and that kind of thinking clearly hurts everybody IMO.

Background_Guy posted...

Princeton schooks are ranked some of the best high schools in the state, in the state with the best education in the country. So I definitely trust the Princeton administrators and educators to know what's best more than I trust a bunch of random outraged parents and Republicans and Joe Numbers

So the historic success of Princeton schools is attributed, in your mind, to bad policies that are proposed but not yet implemented...?

lol ok.

It's weird the kinds of knots people will work themselves into trying to defend clearly bad ideas.

I'm curious, was there any critical thinking that happened in your mind beyond "person I don't like doesn't like this, therefore I do like it."?

Because for your own sake you are likely better served by making up your own mind rather than just taking my or other's opinion and just putting a minus sign in front of it. The latter approach gives me all the power.

emblem boy posted...

Is that really what's happening? They're reducing the highest math class you can take to pre-calculus? If so, yeah that's bad.

Im all for trying lots of new things in education, and I think there are lots of good ideas that people react negatively to without considering the positives, but removing options seems like a bad path though.

A DEI consulting firm that was hired apparently argues for "equal outcomes, without exception" which is clearly not an intelligent goal.

https://planetprinceton.com/2022/06/10/parents-voice-concerns-about-the-direction-of-the-princeton-public-schools/

Bump

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But they might get confused and think they are in any way interesting.

This is a good topic...

FOR ME TO POOP ON!

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing.

That was really cool, thanks for sharing.

gunplagirl posted...

While you're not the poster who needed to clarify, I do appreciate that you specified several factors. I'd rather you drop the ableist term "crazy" is an offensive term to describe various mental health issues.

oh FFS

God forbid we risk "offending" the perpetrators of hate crimes.

masterpug53 posted...

https://twitter.com/DaveMirkin/status/1341171258935930880?s=20&t=sgZllopOKToqkjitndQUew

https://twitter.com/scullymike/status/1341132696869773312

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99qXaVFZkQE
This video also discusses this controversy

DarkRoast posted...

Medicare "prices" are determined by a council of physicians based on the average expenditure on individual DRGs. Biden has literally no influence on it whatsoever.

Source: I'm a doctor who also has a Master of Public Health with subspecialties in health administration and epidemiology

You asked that I not talk to you, I have respected that, but that only works if you don't talk back to me.

Also if you disagree with the reporting then point out the factual errors rather than just appeal to your own claimed authority.

EDIT: You know what, never mind, I forgot just how strongly people on here are intolerant of news stories and facts that go against their predetermined political assumptions.

Personally I think it's better to care about the truth than just let your political tribalism dictate what you insist the truth to be, but that's just me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8L2zBCbmCY

Monolith1676 posted...

That would just boost inflation even more.

Those checks are not the cause of inflation, corporate greed and wasteful spending are.

UBI is like the one thing show to actually vastly help most Americans buying power.

It would have been during college after being up 66 hours straight. I am sure it was over 16 hours, maybe like 20?

Within the last week or so I did 12+

Shablagoo posted...

Can you share the pic that got you there or does it violate GFAQs rules?

https://imgur.com/gallery/ly8NYat

Got on "Most Viral" of imgur today. It's not a big deal, but it did make me feel appreciated. Which felt good.

What makes you think they are?

Why must you turn GameFAQs into a house of LIES?

Is it really that strange to not have sex despite wanting to for 3 hours?

Yes, everybody remembers the episode "Threshold" it is notoriously known by Trek fans as a horrible horrible episode of television and possibly the worst episode of all of classic trek.

Which means it's almost as bad as the best episodes of Star Trek Discovery.

I would ask him:
"Do you like yourself?"

I am fairly confident the answer he would say is "No", but what I would be fascinated by is how he responded to this admission to himself.

ToPoPO posted...

He paid money to buy Twitter, those who received the Twitter money should spend that money to save the world from its issues

This is a good point.

NoMeLx22x posted...

Sure. I mean thats the frustration within most progressive voter groups. They push for actual change to actual people that need it, but they get lumped in woth Democrats and basically have to vote for them since the right is so fucked.

Which is why I personally am done with the duopoly.

If it is done as a casting stunt, yes it does bother me. This is somewhat common.

If it incongruent with the character as they are trying to represent them. Yes it does bother me. But this is rare, and this isn't specific to race/gender, basically any instance where you would call somebody "miscast" would be an instance of this.

Otherwise no it does not bother me. I believe in the universality of our shared humanity. As such I welcome things like open casting. Whoever can play the character the best for the purposes of the movie, should get the part IMO.

NoMeLx22x posted...

No. They're literally not.

They are moderate neoliberals. Certainly not "on the left " in any capacity like the right is painting them out to be.

We are basically in agreement then. The political establishment of both parties is largely not representing or serving the values of the people they claim to serve.

David1988 posted...

Did outlets like CNN or Fox have coverage on this issue? Ill occasionally judge the gravity of various issues based on how much coverage is given to it by mainstream outlets, usually stuff like this is given no coverage and intuitively I feel its a much more significant issue to our system than the stuff they provide more coverage on.

I do not believe so.

Because CNN and Fox are funded by advertisements, one could make the argument that they might be less incentivized to be critical of corporations as a whole.

ScazarMeltex posted...

This is literally the most "well duh" thing ever said.
@shockthemonkey
Yeah I'm not sure who the fuck these powerful people on the left are, unless he means dems in which my only response can be 'fucking lol'.

The president, the house, and the senate are Dem controlled. Are you saying they are not powerful or not on the left?

If it's the latter I'm willing to rephrase:
It is my opinion, that powerful people in the republican establishment who carry water for corporations say:
"Don't worry about corporate greed, the free market will take care of it (eventually), you should be more concerned with the excesses on the left."
I also believe that powerful people in the democratic establishment who carry water for corporations say:
"Don't worry about corporate greed, the government will take care of it (eventually), you should be more concerned with the excesses on the right."

When you have gotten diagnosed, what kind of depression do you have?

I got diagnosed with chronic severe treatment resistant depression, and I have been getting somewhat better lately. So I do have some hacks if that is what you have.

specialkid8 posted...

Please quantify this statement.

This.

I believe some place posted a tweet to the effect of "We could end world hunger for X billion dollars" and Elon tweeted them and said "ok, how?" and it legitimately seemed like he was open to the idea if they had an actual plan.

They kinda fumbled and eventually were like "we could probably feed most people for a year with that amount" and then just trailed off.

If you come up with a plan that would end a huge global problem for a 1B or less price tag, I legitimately believe Elon would do it. Unfortunately most "we could end a major world problem for X money" people don't have clear plans of action that have any reason we'd expect them to work.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


It is my opinion, that powerful people on the right who carry water for corporations say:
"Don't worry about corporate greed, the free market will take care of it (eventually), you should be more concerned with the excesses on the left."
I also believe that powerful people on the left who carry water for corporations say:
"Don't worry about corporate greed, the government will take care of it (eventually), you should be more concerned with the excesses on the right."

And much of the world keeps spinning with many hating their proverbial neighbor while the powerful continue to exploit and hold on to their power.

This is my opinion.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/0/9/8/AACZqoAADL4a.png