Lurker > Lopen

Dante vs Bayonetta is actually a lot more appealing to me. I feel like both of them have clearly defined strengths and weaknesses over the other despite both being ridiculous.

A lot of these high tier guys don't really feel like they're on a tier of strengths/weaknesses and it's sorta just a parameter off where you find the 7 who has slightly higher params than all the rest.

Thor vs a Powerpuff Girl is funny though.
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My utter lack of empathy towards a heroin dealer makes me unfit to preside over the case so they replaced me with that judge unfortunately.

I do agree that that's generally not something to be taken literally at face value though-- of course it's all in the delivery but the words themselves, definitely not.
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The more I read these merc suggestions the more I think the top of the power curve should be like the terminator. Basically stuff that you could imagine a peak human with the right resources available killing

I could not be less interested in discussing Thor vs General Zod
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I mean don't get me wrong it's clear Seph was being crass there. Crass to a point that detracts from the discussion.

But if you honestly took what he said completely literally rather than reading the point he was trying to make, that's a problem on your end too.
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Which kinda illustrates a flaw in calling the movement Black Lives Matter to begin with

If anyone disagrees with any aspect of the movement, it's easy for someone to pretend the voice of dissent is literally saying black lives don't matter.

Good to feel morally superior, but not actually help foster change, though.
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I don't believe you. Or I think you've deluded yourself to the point that you need to re-evaluate how you approach discussions on this topic, as it reads more like you're approaching them looking for openings to call the other guy racist than actually discuss points.
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The difference is I'm being genuine, whereas you're choosing to call out the tone of his post rather than the content. I believe you're enraged at the idea that it's black people's fault that their lives don't matter-- but I don't believe you think that's really the point he was making there.

Calling bullshit out with bullshit doesn't bury it, it just creates a bigger mound
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Though the problem on his end is being overly offensive with how he's phrasing things and not necessarily bigotry, and you're definitely not helping matters either doing your 'look how appalled I am' song and dance in the absence of you know, actual discussion
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If you see everything he's posted in this topic as "dripping with it" that may be a symptom of a problem on your end, not his. (well okay it's probably both but you're definitely not helping matters)
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I don't think it needs a decryptor ring it just requires that you go into conversations about BLM without assuming the voice of dissent is automatically a bigot.

Which is another hurdle for the movement to overcome for the record.
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Dude is clearly saying the BLM movement is going to continue to fail to achieve objectives that aren't looting and rioting while looting and rioting continues to be commonplace among protests.

Which is a perfectly reasonable statement to make.

I guess it's hard to actually see points when you're too busy feigning outrage over politically incorrect statements though
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Yeah I'm just doing PRO too. I've managed to bring ELT down to 3-6 turns depending on the buddy I bring and which weakness he starts with, but I can just mash repeat twice to beat PRO for over half the points with like 1/10 the effort.

Helps that I have no particular want for the higher point tier rewards this time-- last couple of times I had a lot of limit bursts to level and expeditions weren't as established a thing so the King Burst Pot was a lot more appealing to shoot for.
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Also I'll give Donkey Kong a 5.5 while I'm here why not.
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I'll give him a 9. Mostly due to awesome concept and Nolan Batman-- haven't actually read much material with the dude in it. Seems pretty difficult to screw up though so I'll give benefit of a doubt that it's pretty consistent.
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I'm just saying, with a final thought, that I agree with you in the general case that writer's intent doesn't matter. I was never arguing writer's intent to make that clear.

I was arguing what's shown and that it was sufficiently effective at conveying the writer's intent in this instance. Plenty of times in Star Wars, the prequel trilogy in particular, where I can see the writer's intent and it is comically off the mark, but this is not the case in this instance. And it's not because it wasn't panned by the masses, but the fact that it wasn't might be a symptom that you're the one who simply has a fundamental disconnect, for whatever reason (and that's not necessarily a bad thing!), and it's not some sorta objective flaw with the writing.
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I called you stupid for thinking anyone would think that situation you were describing was a plausible way to interpret the scene, actually.
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Hell yeah good result
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Things can be well received in spite of flaws. But if something central to the story has a flaw is as glaring as you're making it out to be, it would not be. It just wouldn't. You're basically making it sound like something out of The Room. Or Episode 2.

"It's hard for me to buy into it" works well for what you're saying in any case. You've already made far too many concessions to your core point for a more forceful way of putting it to really be something you believe.
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Probably not.

God I hate Episode II
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Okay

We go back to you doing what I feel is overjustifying disliking the character or scene, then.

I simply feel that saying it was not built up well enough to be plausible is incorrect. Implausible is just a stronger word than you should be using here, I think. If it was not built up to the point where it was plausible, RotJ would've been panned.

Anakin and Padme's romance. That might be something you could say relating to Vader's character arc that is not plausible. Stuff like this? Just too strong a word.
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That style of criticism only works if it actually looks like what you're claiming it does.

No one on earth thinks Vader's redemption looks like that. Literally no one. Like there are two possible things here to take issue with.

1. Vader having a change of heart shouldn't undo all the bad stuff he's done, and the movie supports that narrative. I hate Vader because he supports that theme.
2. Vader can't possibly have a change of heart because he's done so much bad. It's forced and unrealistic. I hate Vader because it would never happen.

I accept 1. You heavily imply 2 when you make that dumb statement which I do not accept, because it wasn't some sudden out of nowhere thing there that Vader's characterization didn't support as a possibility, nor did the situation imply that was the reason in any way.
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Yeah that's fine.

That's a much better way of expressing your distaste for him than ' Vader could have been helping Luke out of self interest ' which just feels like really bad reaching to try and convince people of something that isn't really there.

I don't have any particular issue with thinking a particular aspect of the Force philosophy is super stupid and disliking Vader disproportionately because of that. But then say that.
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Agnes Oblige
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Also for the record I tend to agree with Leonhart on what impact Vader's redemption has on his character to me. I just doesn't really matter to me and I can't honestly say Vader becomes a terribly sympathetic character at the end.

It does come off as consistent and believable which is all I really ask. Whether ' he's light side now guyz' should be the result of what he does is another thing but having an issue or not with that does not indicate any particular issue with Vader either way
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Panthera posted...

Dude my entire problem is literally that that light/dark mindset thing not accounting for actions is idiotic and makes Vader's character really lame to me because he's the symbol of how much I hate it, because in my mind a guy who has done so many evil things cannot be taken seriously as a candidate for redemption. I know what the intended story is, I just think it sucks and doesn't add up because the way the character is presented reads as "evil jackass who only does things for his own benefit" to me regardless of how much Lucas wants it to seem otherwise. Like have you really never heard of someone criticizing a story by saying it didn't come across as intended

I don't have a problem with criticizing the story. What you're doing here is more taking Vader as your personal platform to vent issues with the philosophy of the Force rather than anything Vader in particular did wrong.

It'd be like me giving Qui Gon Jinn a 1/10 because he was the first character to mention midichlorians.
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Minwu
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I mean we've got multiple people praising characters who do it well while at the same time hating on Hope-- did you just wanna hit a strawman or what.
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I don't mind flawed characters unless that flaw involves them being annoying on screen, of which Hope's does.

Algus and Wakka are flawed characters and they're awesome for it.
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Like uh, I don't have a script and don't want to look for one, but I know Wakka has a few gut responses where he's like still showing some racist first inclinations or remarks, or giving more benefits of a doubt to Yu Yevon related stuff even after they're finding that Yevon are jerkfaces.

They're just token lines or parts of lines and ultimately not important for the scenes, but they exist. They don't drive the plot but they are good callbacks to "yeah, this guy has changed over the game." Hope basically doesn't have these types of things. And there are ways you could do it without sending the plot off the rails whatsoever. Revenge isn't exactly a narrow theme. Just in how the party members regard Barthandelus you could have done something I think

Ultimately it doesn't change the plot of the game much if Wakka remains endgame Wakka the whole time, since he's a side character as you said, but it would make you say "well why is Wakka sorta acting with some restraint or hesitation here-- we never explored this." To me that kinda stuff is important as to whether character development is good. Hope you wouldn't get those kinda questions, cause you don't actually see any difference in his reactions and whatnot between him and what would be a "normal kid."
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Well I don't think he's supposed to be the same character from start to finish actually. I think it's just botched. Sorta like how Hope is botched.

I mean we can use Wakka instead if you think main characters are off limits. You can definitely still see aspects of things he mostly gets over from the earlier game in his later game reactions to events. Like you still know Wakka used to hate Al Bhed even if he's realizing that they're not all bad.

Lol I had this typed up BEFORE you posted that too.
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You want another example from FF though

Cecil from FFIV

He could've been a Paladin from the start and aside from losing the mysidia arc and losing some scenes moping about slaughtering some mages before the start of the game you wouldn't know the difference.

Then again Cecil's actual character doesn't really change during the game and he just gets a different dressphere so I dunno if that's really the same thing.
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LeonhartFour posted...

yeah but if he was just that guy from the start you'd never know the difference and it wouldn't matter

that's why it's a silly argument

You would know the difference. There'd be aspects to his character and personality that are clearly there but that aren't really fleshed out very well and you'd wonder why that was the case. Because the Tidus of the late game is actually influenced by the Tidus of the early game.

Hope doesn't really have anything like that. There's never any scene in the late game where his lust for revenge he overcame ever comes up even tangentially. He's just a generic dude.
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LeonhartFour posted...

but I think "just skip the character development and go straight to the final product and you'd never know the difference" is a silly argument to make

Well I don't think it's true most of the time, so it's not an argument that comes up very often.

Like Tidus, definitely not the same character-- you can see how the stuff he goes through shapes the final product.
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There's no hope for that fruit basket
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I think the big problem with Hope is it's not really character building. I probably would've liked him if getting over that added something to the character-- but it just erased an annoying aspect. His character actually had less depth when it was all done because the one interesting part of him disappeared.

Like this is sorta repeating the fruit basket point, but it's not quite the same point being made since it's not really thinking strictly in terms of +/-. I just wish he got anything out of it. Even if it didn't make him particularly likable, just a character aspect that made you realize "yeah he wouldn't have been the same character at this point without that happening."

Because to me, you can erase the first 7 chapters of Hope from the game and just have him be the same character the whole time, and you wouldn't know the difference aside from the memories of the annoying stuff being gone.
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If anything that means Algus was better at his job since I don't think you were supposed to hate Hope and yet many did anyway.
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Chapter 7 was good but I don't really think that makes Hope a good character. It means a bad character was used in a good way. Maybe it makes Snow a good character.

I mean you're the guy who hates Algus-- he created some damn fine conflict too!
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GANON1025 posted...

New event announced:

lmao
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It doesn't help that Hope goes from really bad to just there and not really contributing anything.

If he went from bad to legitimately good I think I would probably lean towards the good end even given equal time for both because it's like, "oh that development made it all worth it!"

But it's like, you can't really erase bad with neutral very effectively. If some dude is out there honking in the parking lot you be damn sure I want a fruit basket.
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Wait for Dr. Mog to be saved to make your move, but act quickly, Kupo!
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Dr Mog
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Scully
House
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Panthera posted...

it's more of a way to criticize the scene by saying how badly what we got clashes with how his characterization actually comes across to me. As in, him acting out of self-interest would make a lot more sense to me than what I'm expected to believe.

It's a way to criticize the scene that makes you come across as a buffoon who didn't pay attention to the movies. It'd been hinted at for quite some time, over a movie's length in fact, that Vader appeared a heartless bastard but that maybe he wasn't completely lost.

Like the key here is that what Star Wars is feeding you is that being light side vs dark side is all about mentality and not so much about the sum of all good you've done vs all bad you've done. Once the guy is showing that he wishes to repent or whatever, it doesn't matter, to the force, that he'd previously blown up a planet's worth of people.

Now I could agree with you that that's a dumb message to push, but it's not Vader's fault so much. It seems your issue is more the reactions to Vader moreso than Vader himself, who is a pretty consistently written character in the original trilogy and doesn't really came across as forced at any point
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Minwu
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Like put it another way.

Say you replace Luke Skywalker with Qui Gon Jinn in RotJ. Like literally the exact same scenario, with Emperor muttering stuff about something something aggression, and Qui Gon Jinn saying he has a certain set of skills that make him a nightmare for sith like Palps

Darth Vader as portrayed, does not help Qui Gon Jinn. 0% that happens. Palps tries to pressure cook Qui Gon while Vader looks on, then Qui Gon flips out, kills everyone and finds his daughter on the Death Star II
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You basically sound like you're over-rationalizing disliking him because you really didn't like him becoming "redeemed" at the end.

I can respect that! I can't really respect you trying to claim "he only saved Luke because he was afraid Palps was gonna kill him"-- that's simply not the story being told there and it makes you seem like you watched a lets play of LMS watching the Star Wars Trilogy to digest the plot.
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Keep in mind I actually agree that him becoming a "Light Side Spirit" in the end for that one selfless act is dumb. Cause it is. One good deed shouldn't outweigh all the bs he did.

But him doing it out of self-preservation is 100% fanfiction.
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Actually I called you stupid because the trilogy pretty much leads up to that the whole time. Otherwise I would've quoted the "generic evil" posts

Your interpretation of Vader's actions is basically fanfiction not supported by the presentation at all.
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I don't think you were reading the subtext very well if that's your interpretation of RotJ.
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9

Not counting Anakin Skywalker stuff as Vader. Darth Vader killed him, after all.

Good villain. Very menacing, great design. Simple, but who cares, does what he needs to and does it very well.
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