Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 416: Rishi Sunk

(+) Yeah! (+)

IfGodCouldDie posted...

The problem is that we are literally living in a situation that unfortunately mirrors/has a lot of similarities to Germany in one of their darkest times in history

Really

Please name them-- on a practical level, not a "Heritage Foundation Think-tank is gonna control earth and their agenda is similar"

I want to talk about how the path to escalation is similar

Lopen posted...

Please name them-- on a practical level, not a "Heritage Foundation Think-tank is gonna control earth and their agenda is similar"

https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-creating-schedule-f-excepted-service/

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-project-2025-video/

Sorozone posted...

https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-creating-schedule-f-excepted-service/

I am too dumb to get it just from reading that

Can you please name specific parallels and why the checks that exist on those parallels are similar to those in place in 1920-1930s Germany

I want very specific parallels from each side that aren't based on ideology.

Lopen posted...

Really

Please name them-- on a practical level, not a "Heritage Foundation Think-tank is gonna control earth and their agenda is similar"

I want to talk about how the path to escalation is similar

Since the Weimar Republics early days, its politics had been defined by disinformation campaigns, including the lie that Weimar democracy was the work of a cabal of Jews and socialists - something Republicans have been doing like crazy since Obama.

Hitler did not seize power, as the Nazis later claimed. Instead, as his biographer Ian Kershaw has explained, he was levered into power by a small group of influential men.

One of those men was Franz von Papen, who served as chancellor in 1932. He (infamously) thought that Hitler and the Nazi Party by far the largest party after the Reichstag elections of 1932 could be used to advance a conservative agenda. - this is basically on par with your conspiracy theory that trump is being setup as a fall guy which would be accurately followed up by trump being as ruthless and uncontrollable as hitler was for the people that put him there.

The liberals and social democrats who opposed Hitler were either subjected to violence or caught up in their own optimistic escapism. - he hasn't even gotten his second term and we've already seen this kind of violence.

Within 100 days of Hitler becoming chancellor, as historian Peter Fritzsche has shown, the Nazis ruthless drive for power became all too clear. By the end of the summer of 1933, German society had been brought into line. There were no more independent political parties, trade unions, or cultural organizations. Only Christian churches retained some degree of independence.- there are already plans in P2025 to take care of these kinds of things.

Also recent SCOTUS decision is very similar to the enabling act of 1933.

You need to wake up Lopen. It is literally being set in motion today and you're just trying to pretend it is not.

https://twitter.com/drmistercody/status/1811545515697578479?s=46&t=v9nzYLLBIiNYrqldFs9NWQ

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-project-2025-video/

Trump is a liar, more at 11.

Nothing about this guy can move the needle in any direction.

That's mostly ideology parallels (of which I think Trump has shown no real inclination to care about) and tactics parallels (meaningless in a different environment if the tactics don't work)

I want to know how Trump does it. I don't really care how you think it's setting up similarly. Yeah yeah dude has a shady coven of influencers supposedly helping him. Ok? How is our current government like 1920s - 1930s Germany.

Like

It's the President. I dont know if you understand what power the president does and does not have. Even if he wanted to do everything Hitler did he could not without acts to increase his power. Which yes, it's concerning that 2025 is trying to increase power of the president, if Trump is gonna go along with it. I agree.

It all plays to "yes maybe you should be concerned if you're right and the project 2025 matters but even if you're right it needs like 10-20 more years unchecked"

In "2025 actually matters and isn't just a scapegoat to crash world economy and start wars" timeline I imagine you end up with something like

2025-2028 - Trump does some stuff to increase President power, does some stupid stuff like outrageous tax breaks for wealthy I dunno
2029-2036 (probably longer) - New house and senate elected to get more power in the legislative branch
2037 forward - someone who isn't an idiot exploits the holes created by Trump to seize power

And this is all contingent on all the project 2025 stuff working and it not being undone later

It's a long play.

I think Germany is a difficult comparison to make for the visceral nature of it, and honestly trying to make direct comparisons is missing the point for me, a little? The US is turning (further) into an authoritarian, corrupt, cruel mess, yes. But it's repeating conservative and nationalist patterns we've seen for centuries, and adding the impacts of social media and late-stage capitalism to a global superpower.

We're realistically going to see a new flavour of authoritarianism which reflects but doesn't copy the past. I think elements of the Islamic Revolution mirror the current climate in a really interesting way (in that there is somehow popular appeal for a relatively non-violent movement towards a dictator in a country which is really not doing that badly).

Parts of Europe in the last decade or so, like Hungary and Turkey, are also in that weird "practically vote in an authoritarian leader to strip civil rights and be a de-facto dictator, with some minimal restraints" sorta state which the recent Supreme Court verdict is pushing. And frankly given how the Supreme Court works (and the Democrat issues with tearing up the playbook due to "respectability") I think it's almost certain at this point that more holes for wannabe dictators to take advantage of will open up. I don't see a way to prevent this in the current system unless Democrats somehow get in long enough to get their own Supreme Court majority (or tear up the rulebook as I mentioned).

Ultimately though, the Germany comparison has a basis. Not saying it'll be Literally Nazi Germany (I hate to agree with Lopen on this but the US genuinely has too many financial stakeholders with self-interest for most active eugenics programs to be carried out anytime soon). But the US never really purged their social Darwinism from the political milieu nor moved on from the passive, day to day eugenic ideology. Those tendencies (even if they're moreso below the surface) will linger even when Trump is dead and buried, unless there's genuine structural change.

Certain, more passive programmes (I am particularly thinking of queer people in certain states and disabled, physically and mentally ill people, in general) are acceptable currently. Another term of Trump is likely to worsen them further - even a term of a fuckin Democrat has failed to stop life getting worse for many marginalised people.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-project-2025-video/

I disagree with some of the things theyre saying, and some of the things theyre saying are absolutely ridiculous and abysmal. Anything they do, I wish them luck, but I have nothing to do with them."

I disagree with some of the things theyre saying, and some of the things theyre saying are absolutely ridiculous and abysmal.

Anything they do, I wish them luck, but I have nothing to do with them."

Literally consecutive sentences.

Wouldnt be conservative if they werent supporting something abysmal and ridiculous

Lopen posted...

I am too dumb to get it just from reading that

Can you please name specific parallels and why the checks that exist on those parallels are similar to those in place in 1920-1930s Germany

It's a new designation of around 50,000 civil servants to reclassify to political appointees, stripping them of civil protections like being fired.

Meaning you are no longer working for the USA, you are working directly under the President, who can fire you for any reason because of what was mentioned above. In what scenario do you not see Trump using this to hire people loyal to him, and not anything merit based?

Biden revoked this almost instantly when he became president, Trump will likely put it back on to hire 50,000 yes men.

Anyone involved with policy making can fit under this classification, which potentially could be a staggering amount of the workforce.

There are many differences with 1930s Germany, for instance Hitler and Thalmann never stopped to compare their golf handicaps.

More seriously Hungary and Turkey which Sheep names there are better comparisons. Still basically democratic, but deeply compromised with effectively a dictator at the centre. Of course, both may now be seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, but not without decades of hurt first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism

Sorozone posted...

Meaning you are no longer working for the USA, you are working directly under the President, who can fire you for any reason because of what was mentioned above. In what scenario do you not see Trump using this to hire people loyal to him,

And just to expand on this. Remember the rotation of cabinet members and other things that Trump went through his first term? Yeah those were the people already under the classification of a political appointee. Now imagine that but x10,000

Let's not forget that in 2020 federal agents were going around abducting people in vans on Ken Cuccinnelli's orders. Cuccinnelli is, no surprise, a member of Project 2025 and the Heritage Group.

And this was back when there were still 'adults' in the room.

Sheep007 posted...

I hate to agree with Lopen on this but the US genuinely has too many financial stakeholders with self-interest for most active eugenics programs to be carried out anytime soon

Dude, it always starts small and facisim is literally built on the idea that the leopards won't eat MY face. None of the people that have financial stakes in the US are going to matter in a situation where the country falls to fascism. That's kind of the whole point of fascism. Once fascists have control you either do what they want or you're dead, or you fund the other side of the war in secret to make up for the fact you in part caused it to happen..

IfGodCouldDie posted...

None of the people that have financial stakes in the US are going to matter in a situation where the country falls to fascism. That's kind of the whole point of fascism. Once fascists have control you either do what they want or you're dead, or you fund the other side of the war in secret to make up for the fact you in part caused it to happen..

They don't have the mechanisms to take over the government in place and the US government is designed specifically to have a lot of layers of control to stop that (which yes expanding presidential power is weakening some of those controls-- which is why I was saying as a long game it can potentially be concerning)

This isn't a game of civilization where you just pick to change your policy to fascism and after a turn of unrest it changes

You can always hostile takeover to do it but then we've already been infiltrated at each level of the infrastructure and we're already hosed and the Project2025 stuff doesn't matter anyway.

In terms of Turkey and Hungary, did both of those countries have an increasingly big problem with literal neo-nazis hanging out with the side that was pushing for authoritarianism?

So Lopen I'm just going to ask you the same thing I asked Corrik that he refused to answer, what would you need to see to seriously reconsider and believe that this threat is a realistic possibility?

IfGodCouldDie posted...

In terms of Turkey and Hungary, did both of those countries have an increasingly big problem with literal neo-nazis hanging out with the side that was pushing for authoritarianism?

Yes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves_(organization)

IfGodCouldDie posted...

what would you need to see to seriously reconsider and believe that this threat is a realistic possibility?

The big thing is removing checks on the president from the legislative branch. This can be done by a series of changes to the government to either increase what the President can do or decrease the tools of the legislative to check him via their needed approvals or their impeachment nuke.

Ultimately the power of President is fairly limited as it stands. He can do Executive Orders, but the legislative can just tweak laws or funding to make those not work as intended.

Like you guys are laughing at my Pelosi stuff but anyone with ton of influence in congress has more power than the president. Legislative branch is the strongest branch, not Executive. You can't turn the US fascist without winning that branch or destroying it.

For whatever little it's worth the Judicial branch also has checks on the president still in place and if those are further removed or republican balance of judges increases further it gets even more troubling-- he can't be criminally prosecuted for stuff in office but that's overblown anyway. They can still override executive orders if they overextend. I will give you guys that unlike the legislative the judicial branch seems completely stupid right now and I wouldn't depend on them for anything, but in theory they could.

But yeah for all the gloom and doom, the senate and house aren't super republican titled right now. And a lot of Republicans AREN'T drinking far right Kool aid right now-- you go a bit too far out of line and a few Republicans flip, then that's it.

The other thing that would start me getting worried is if you start seeing numbers like in the Supreme Court in congress. Like you start getting 60-40 Republican majority in the senate or house yeah it's a little concerning.

Lopen posted...

And a lot of Republicans AREN'T drinking far right Kool aid right now--

What.

I love how Lopen just lives in his own made up reality.

It makes real discussion pointless.

I love how you guys don't understand how the government works and then when I try to explain it a little bit you laser focus on "whoa he said not all republicans are Maga Trumpers get him!"

Own little world .

Lopen posted...

They don't have the mechanisms to take over the government in place and the US government is designed specifically to have a lot of layers of control to stop that

There are a lot of layers, but which of them are likely to do anything?

Laws? Oh wow, words on paper. There's no way anyone can ignore that and just do what they want.

The courts? Well, the Supreme Court seems willing to go along with whatever the GOP wants, so that's out.

Congress? Assuming Trump wins, it's nearly guaranteed the GOP will control at least one chamber. That's enough to block any attempts at passing new laws to limit presidential power. Which (since the supermajority needed for impeachment will never happen) is the only real recourse Congress has to control a president. And that's if the GOP doesn't control both chambers and choose to actively help bring about fascism.

The federal bureaucracy? Actually, they could do a lot to limit the damage. Well, unless there was a plan to greatly increase the president's ability to fire federal employees and replace them with loyalists. Oh wait, that's exactly what's being planned, never mind.

State governments? Well, that does leave a huge chunk of the population completely screwed, but blue states could try to ignore/oppose the federal government. But that really only works if the federal government is willing to overlook it; states just aren't powerful enough to oppose them.

So what am I overlooking here?

Why would people of the same party stop the president from grabbing more power? They sure havn't done it yet

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Dude, it always starts small and facisim is literally built on the idea that the leopards won't eat MY face. None of the people that have financial stakes in the US are going to matter in a situation where the country falls to fascism. That's kind of the whole point of fascism. Once fascists have control you either do what they want or you're dead, or you fund the other side of the war in secret to make up for the fact you in part caused it to happen..

Yeah, that's kinda my point and I partially agree, I think I'm just coming at this from a different angle. It's not the big, end goal purge of fascism that should be the worry in America - that is not the imminent threat, as scary (and increasing) as the possibility is.

America is already full of fascistic myths and ideals. If things keep getting worse it's not going be a quick snap turn to fascism but a slow creep of inevitably towards it as those ideals become more accepted. It's the (relatively) smaller but currently happening realities like denial of abortion, trans and gay rights, reducing access to healthcare, gradual removal of democratic processes and acceptability of open fascists that all need focus before the awful possibilities which are still just possibilities.

Also, I kinda agree with Lopen's thought process here but I think the final evaluation of how well the checks and balances in the US function is miles off. Theoretically, you're correct, but practically, the Supreme Court is compromised and will always make decisions that enable the far-right for the foreseeable future. Frankly, I think expecting any decency from Republican politicians at this point is wild. Again, the process is gonna be gradual, but Trump will likely be able to push his luck a little more with what should reasonably be impeachable in his second term than his first. And there are a hell of a lot of rights that can be stripped from people regardless of what Congress have to say, as we've already seen. This doesn't have to be full-on executing politicians in the streets kinda stuff.

Sheep007 posted...

but practically, the Supreme Court is compromised and will always make decisions that enable the far-right for the foreseeable future

And I do agree with this

I would be a lot more concerned if the House was compromised. As it is you hope you can just weather the storm and hope the Republican judges age out when a Democrat is president because the Supreme Court isn't the moneymaker branch.

Good chance Alito and Thomas (or at least Thomas) retire if Trump wins in 2024 and let him fill those seats - allowing Trump to have appointed an absolute majority of the court and fucking SCOTUS for a good 30+ years. I mean, he might not find replacements as ghoulish as those two given he couldn't despite 3 attempts but still.

Thorn posted...

Good chance Alito and Thomas (or at least Thomas) retire if Trump wins in 2024 and let him fill those seats - allowing Trump to have appointed an absolute majority of the court and fucking SCOTUS for a good 30+ years. I mean, he might not find replacements as ghoulish as those two given he couldn't despite 3 attempts but still.

He'll have an easier time this time.

18 reps have called on Biden to suspended his campaign and dozens more expected in the next 48 hours after today's gaffes

18 reps have called on Biden to suspended his campaign and dozens more expected in the next 48 hours after today's gaffes

Sounds like there are more elected Democrats willing to criticize Biden for being old than there are elected Republicans willing to criticize Trump for being a convicted felon!

https://twitter.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1811604199341175102

ah yes, a return to the segregation era

Thorn posted...

ah yes, a return to the segregation era

Also a return to the era where the highest income tax bracket was 91%.

Also a return to the era where KKK-lobbied immigration laws were still on the books.

(Though, TBH, 1960s nostalgia is kind of silly anyway. The reason America was doing well in 1960 cause everyone else got screwed up by WW2, so America was the dominant economic power by default, and third world countries didn't yet have manufacturing or mining infrastructure so America dominated many of those fields too. You could re-implement every 1960 law word for word tomorrow, and you wouldn't reproduce the economic conditions of the 60s).

Dems not invoked the 25th yet?

Three things I have to add:

1) There's a reason Starship Troopers director Paul Verhoeven felt the US was not too dissimilar to Nazi Germany even during the Clinton administration.

2) I realized why I felt less anxious about Trump winning this election than the 2016 one - there simply isn't as much hype for him! Granted, that's likely erroneous thinking, but on that same token Biden is also an incumbent with no major scandals on his watch the way Trump himself and Bush did and yet the former got more votes than an incumbent ever has while the latter was re-elected anyway. The only reason this is even remotely competitive is because Biden's opponent is a cult leader. I think even now Biden probably fits most Americans' idea of a POTUS much better than Hillary Clinton ever did, and it's so weird to think these two candidates could possibly be so unpopular considering what I said about Biden regarding being a sitting president with no major scandals (biggest is probably giving supplies to genocidal Israel, but Biden has also made it clear he's no fan of Netanyahu's actions).

3) I think Biden could actually order a public execution of Trump and get through without consequences...for himself. In reality that would probably just cause lots of chaos without solving many problems itself and even if he doesn't get convicted over it, I doubt Biden wants to be known as the President who destabilized the whole country using his newfound Presidential immunity.

Anyway on YouTube I saw there was a poll that had both of them neck-and-neck so I don't even anymore. Hearing so many conflicting reports it feels useless even less than four months out. In 2016 Trump didn't poll ahead of Hillary Clinton until August and if these two candidates are even more unpopular imagine how useless polls are now. I might also be willing to die on the hill that Bush was a worse President than Trump, albeit mostly on the grounds of the former doing more damage internationally vs. domestically for the latter.

https://twitter.com/tristansnell/status/1811741245900730753?s=46&t=v9nzYLLBIiNYrqldFs9NWQ

People are trying to make it racist to say an 80 year old white man should step down, lol.

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

https://twitter.com/tristansnell/status/1811741245900730753?s=46&t=v9nzYLLBIiNYrqldFs9NWQ

People are trying to make it racist to say an 80 year old white man should step down, lol.

So...trying to make the point that all of them are white males I guess? Yeah, that's just not true.

Like...here's a list of politicians calling for Biden to step down from yesterday:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/democrats-who-have-called-on-joe-biden-step-down/story?id=111854551

Four of them are women.

That picture also includes John Stewart (who is Jewish so wouldn't be counted as white by racists, but nevermind that), but doesn't list any of the correspondents/cohosts on the Daily Show saying basically the same thing, most of whom are either not white or not male.

If the argument is "but John Stewart is the guy in power at the Daily Show"

Wow, you've shown that men are in positions of power? Good job proving...patriarchy?

Yeah the incumbent with no major scandals who got 87% of the vote in the primary should step down four months from the election. Democrats are just as stupid as Republicans.

The Dem leadership is more stupid, but since they're less outwardly evil we have to work with them.

Show me a path to victory, and I will get behind the "Biden should drop out" bit. I just don't see it. Who is it that will come in and save the party?

Kamala Harris, who the mid-western states will hold it against for being black and a woman? Who's considered 'unlikeable' even by most dems? Who progressives will label as a cop? Who's approval rating is the same as Biden's?

Gretchen Whitmer, who would have to start over from scratch on a very short notice, with little national profile, and again people will hold it against her for being a woman.

Gavin Newsome, a California liberal who will be blamed for crime here, even though it's really not as bad as they make it out to be, and who will be blamed for homelessness and pretty much everything else?

How about Bernie Sanders? The guy older than Biden. I'm sure that'll play great in the press.

Hillary Clinton? The woman who lost to Trump last time?

Keep in mind that all of these except Harris have to start over with fundraising, and all of these but Harris will be viewed as a betrayal and ignoring the primaries (regardless of how 'real' the primaries were.)

The Democrats don't have a back bench, and nobody can show a path for victory if we drop Biden. Everyone says "Let's just replace Biden!" But they never say with who. If Kamala were the clear choice, everyone would be saying "Let Kamala Run." instead, we get no names from any of the people calling for Biden to step down. You might see a couple suggesting her, but most of them just say Biden should step aside, but never for whom. A lot of people are wary of Harris. She didn't do well in the Dem primary. Show me the path to victory.

I think you might be surprised how quickly the narrative could change for Harris if she were the nominee. Shes the only one who can take advantage of incumbency and already polling on average as well as Biden is. That number normally goes up when you officially become the nominee. I do not see another viable choice than Harris.

I've said it before in this topic, but Harris has learned how to give a pretty good speech. (I was not impressed by her speech giving at all in 2020).

I was skeptical of her as the pick in 2020, but she definitely feels stronger in 2024 than she felt in 2020.

I'm not dying on the hill of either side of the Biden stepping down debate

none of the options are appreciably better in my estimation, and I'll leave estimating the odds to people who know that stuff better

counterpoint: Harris is a cop

Its Kamala.

The negative of her being a cop isnt going to turn off anyone who wasnt already turned off by Joe allowing genocide in Palestine, and its a positive to the centrists who just want order.

AriaOfBolo posted...

I'm not dying on the hill of either side of the Biden stepping down debate

This is me too.

If he stays in the race, he has my support.

If he drops out, whoever replaces him has my support.

.

Loudly tearing down both sides during a point when we're not sure whats going to happen yet feels like the worst of both worlds

ChaosTonyV4 posted...

Its Kamala.

The negative of her being a cop isnt going to turn off anyone who wasnt already turned off by Joe allowing genocide in Palestine, and its a positive to the centrists who just want order.

yea